The 1911 Project

[Bushwack]

Agreed, SPECWAR units are issued the weapon, although most opt for something less clunky and more comfortable{although most weaponry is going to feel clunky if you have small hands regardless}, Meplat, but i recall a post where someone argued the MEU/SOC was an expensive POS, just thought id add a little information on exactly the cost of said MEU/SOC. I wouldnt say the MEU/SOC is issued more, as there arent that many of those types of units for the USMC/SPECWAR. I'd say the numbers are slightly higher for the MEU/SOC, {and im speculating}but still not a lot. Both would be considered fairly rare for the average grunt to have in thier hands.
I could care either way whether or not its implemented, i own 3, 1911 variants myself, of differing manufacture, i also own the SOCOM. I like them both for what they are, not for the "OMG IT IS TEH COOLX0rZ" factor.

I'm all for as many weapon variants as can be added,in so much as they are realistically implemented, i'll play with whatever flavor i'm into at that particular time.

 

[Specter]

The MEU(SOC) pistol is one of the rarest of issued military weapons. There are probably less than 350 issued to operators, schools, and depots at this time. Not many civilians have any knowledge of this pistol. Even in the military there are few that have even heard of it, and fewer still have even seen it.

I forget which website this quote came from.

 

[jaunty]

@Jaunty Do you have any sources for the PPSh41 having a chrome bore? Far as I know they didn't start chrome plating until sometime after WW2.

Last time I checked, the Vietcong and the Vietnam War didn't exist until after World War 2. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure there's about 30, maybe 35 years between the fall of Berlin and the fall of Saigon.

PPSh-41s were rarely made to spec during World War 2, so for every chromed barrel, there's probably three without and another 5 or 6 with something else entirely. At a time, PPSh-41 barrels were Mosin-Nagant barrels cut in half. Factories made do with what they could get. If they had chromed barrels out of a Nagant, then they used them. If they had crude barrels made out of old plumbing, then they used them.

Also, I have a book which states the following;

To reduce wear and help cleaning, the bore and chamber of these guns were all chromed.

 

[LCJr.]

Yes, but they had outstanding Russian stuff like the PPSh-41 (which has a crhomed bore... sometimes).

Last time I checked, the Vietcong and the Vietnam War didn't exist until after World War 2. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure there's about 30, maybe 35 years between the fall of Berlin and the fall of Saigon.

Last time I checked the Russians stopped producing the PPSh41 in 1947. WW2 production of PPSh-41 was around 5-6 million. Exact numbers are difficult to impossible to come by for the Soviets but if the Mosin-Nagant M44(7+million 1943-45, 460,000+ 1946-48) is any indication postwar production of the PPSh-41 would have been a fraction of the wartime numbers. BTW none of the Russian M44's, or any of the satellite countries, are chrome plated. Well with the exception of the ones formerly used by the honor guard at Lenin's tomb, but they're chromed on the outside

I've seen the subject of when exactly the Russians began chrome plating come up before and was simply curious if you had any good sources on it. Apparently you don't.


edit> Hi Reaper has been a long time. Found a PM from Feb. in my inbox.

@Metplat Any idea on the reason for the Japanese chrome-plating the Type-99? Defense against humidity/jungle conditions? From what I've been told corrosive ammo cuts through chrome too. So if thats correct no real gain there.

 

[Meplat]

LCJr- It's been held that it was to ease maintenance in humid/harsh environments.

"Corrosive" is very much a misnomer, relating only to the priming compound. It takes a substantial amount of firing, combined with humidity, and idiocy to ruin a bore from corrosive priming compounds. There is also the term, "Erosive", which was a byproduct of both the fine silica used in early mercuric primers, as well as the combination of somewhat softer barrel steels, and fast buring nitrocellulose powders. "Cordite" is an example of a POTENTIALLY erosive powder. ( A Note-Most British firearms by the time Cordite was in full martial use were made of some pretty damn tough steel, but using Cordite in some customized sporting arms chambered for the .303 could be damaging )

Corrosive primers will eventually damage a chromium lined bore, but it takes significantly longer to occur.

Meplat-

 

[LCJr.]

I'm in the humid Midwestern US. Takes 3 days for surface rust to start after only 20-40 rounds. Didn't do a thorough job my first two times cleaning my M44. Learned my lesson, actually switched to the Windex method, and luckily no harm was done.

Was doing a little pawnshopping before Xmas and ran across a Hungarian M44 w/all matching numbers and completely ruined. Inside of the barrel looked like old battery posts.

 

[Meplat]

LCJr- Boiling water, and soap worked wonders on the Brit iron I collect. We're talking many thousands of rounds of MkVII ball through just the No1MkIV*. "GoJo" lanolin handcleaner, WITHOUT the pumice, and hot water, followed by drypatching, and a coating of good oil (CLP, because I did, and do still have a LOT of it) was all I did. You use a lot of patches, and it's not quick, not easy.

For some reason, a lot of the combloc M44's I've seen are tomato stakes in quality. I've been told by a Russian friend that the majority of messed up looking M44's most likely spent most of their time in police cars, being generally abused, and ignored.

Meplat-

 

[jaunty]

Last time I checked the Russians stopped producing the PPSh41 in 1947. WW2 production of PPSh-41 was around 5-6 million. Exact numbers are difficult to impossible to come by for the Soviets but if the Mosin-Nagant M44(7+million 1943-45, 460,000+ 1946-48) is any indication postwar production of the PPSh-41 would have been a fraction of the wartime numbers. BTW none of the Russian M44's, or any of the satellite countries, are chrome plated. Well with the exception of the ones formerly used by the honor guard at Lenin's tomb, but they're chromed on the outside.

The war ended in '45, chum. That's two years of post war production. Besides that, since when was the '44 Carbine the only Nagant that the Russians had? The damn thing had been around in one form or another since 1891.

Now lets reiterate what I said; During war time, the Russians were more interested in pumping out thousands and thousands of weapons than making a few which met spec. That means that some had chrome, some didn't. Some had cut down nagant barrels and knowing the Russians, some probably had old plumbing. Some had perfect chrome barrels, just like the plans called for. You wanted a source as to when the Russians started chrome lining, well there it is.

PPSh production started in '41, I just told you that they were all supposed to be chromed in both the chamber and bore. Logical deduction; the Russians started chroming weapons in at least 1941, but possibly earlier.

Was that so hard?

 

[LCJr.]

LCJr- Boiling water, and soap worked wonders on the Brit iron I collect. We're talking many thousands of rounds of MkVII ball through just the No1MkIV*. "GoJo" lanolin handcleaner, WITHOUT the pumice, and hot water, followed by drypatching, and a coating of good oil (CLP, because I did, and do still have a LOT of it) was all I did. You use a lot of patches, and it's not quick, not easy.

For some reason, a lot of the combloc M44's I've seen are tomato stakes in quality. I've been told by a Russian friend that the majority of messed up looking M44's most likely spent most of their time in police cars, being generally abused, and ignored.

Meplat-

Using Windex w/ammonia is a lot quicker and easier than boiling water. I take a little bottle with me when I shoot. Spray down the bore, wipe off the bolt face and run a few patches til it's dry and then clean normally when I get home.

GoJo, interesting. What's in it that neutralizes the salts?

The majority of the Russian M/N's coming in now are the ones that were rearsenaled and put in storage. They are in good shape but have forced matched(electro-penciled) numbers. If your interested try Aztec http://www.aztecguns.com Century Arms or AIM. The one I have now is a Century but from what've heard and seen I think I'll being using Aztec in the future. Next on list however is Finn M-39

It's possible the M/O(Ministry of Defense) stamped ones are what were turned over to the police and other civil/paramilitary groups.

Hope you still got all your British steel. From what I'm hearing they're getting scarce and pricey.



You win Jaunty, I give up. Please forgive me for questioning you. Bye.

Oh by the way the M44 is the only Mosin they kept in production by Russia after the war, unless you include the 91/30's reworked to 91/59 configuration. Production of the 91/30 and M38 ended in 1944.

 

[Meplat]

LCJr- Well, I was reading "Hatcher's Notebook" and it related how one could use anhydrous lanolin to help dissolve the salts (also, the boiling water does most of the work). Granted the lanolin in GoJo is not anhydrous, but it worked, and beautifully. We're talking a mirror like bore on a 1944 vintage Long Branch. "Easy" I can accecept, but sometimes one needs to go through some post shooting rituals, and reflect on how the weapon they own is deserving of care.

Regarding scarcity, yes, they've skyrocketed. I've managed to get some nice representative samples, but finding a good shootable SMLE is getting to be difficult.
Webleys? Egads. MkVI's are well into 400.00 now.

But yes, I'm keeping all my Brit stuff, and planning on reacquiring a L1A1 after the odius ban dies.

Meplat-

 

[LCJr.]

My M44 is far from a mirror bore. Counterbored approx. 1 inch, rifling is good but worn, some minor pitting and is frosted. And believe me it took a lot of work and Sweet's 7.62 to get in that condition. Besides 50+ year old commie cosmoline it had a lot of metal fouling still.

It's was made in 1944 so I don't know if it made to front or not but at some point it had a lot of rounds put through and didn't get stellar maintentance. Can't really blame Ivan for that, they were trained to clean from the muzzle and the muzzlecap provided isn't very good if it was used.

It still shoots well as it should and looks pretty good on the outside so I can't complain. Have to send my compliments out to the armorer that sighted it in after the rearsenal. With the bayonet extended it is dead on the money if I do my part.

 

[jumbo377]

so coooooooool

Has anyone tried this clearcoat? My neighbor got a gallon and has put it on everything. It feels awesome and it’s just a clear, one coat and your done. It says on the webpage that it’s the same stuff as in cars on the radio knobs etc.

http://www.alsacorp.com/products/softtouch/softtouch_prodinfo.htm

 

[CAVERNA2K]

Too bad lasguns blow up when you shoot a shield

Leto II said that too, but 3500 years later. hahah

 

[Cleeus[JgKdo]]

Leto II said that too, but 3500 years later. hahah

???
I don't remember him saying something about pistols, what do you mean?

 

[CAVERNA2K]

I screwd up this one...

 

[AlmostAlive]

Well yay, another thread back from the dead. And this time time it's not even on topic. Good job, champ!

 

[NavySupra]

The m9 failed at least once in testing against the 1911a1.

The colt had proven itself over years of service life and reliability. After beretta had finally gotten to the 92fs(yes the letters mean something, its been a while since I did the read up on how the m9 came about) to a state that the us army would take, the colt was dismissed.

The major reason that the colt was removed from service was that the .45acp ammunition was heavier than the 9mm ammo. And that the soldier could not carry as much ammo.

It seems there is alot of 1911 bashing going on here. I personally just bought my self a 9mm beretta, though I'm waiting till I can actually pick it up (canadian governement ****). I would love to have a colt. They were a well designed handgun that is STILL in service with army's police forces, and special forces today.

The only reason why the 9mm even comes close to the .45acp is that the military loads it at +p+ or +P++.

Some of you may remember the issue with slides breaking on the beretta as a result of such heavy loads.

Anothing interesting factor that was brought up here was ammunition. Nato 9mm ball ammo verses .45ACP ball ammunition, the .45ACP stands a much better chance of incapicitating the enemy over the 9mm. The 9mm was designed to go THROUGH someone, which doesn't mean they are knocked out of the fight. the .45acp was ment to STOP a man, which would knock them out of a fight.

Two different schools of thought. For all intensive purposes, the .45acp in ball is better for the needs of special forces, over 9mm ball ammo.

In reality special forces do not have to adheir to the geneva convention, and thus do not have to use ball ammo. So the 9mm comes into play, because SF can use whatever ammo suits the situation at hand.

 

[RedMarlin[MERLIN]]

This is an old post dumbass why are you bringing it up again

 

[NavySupra]

This is an old post dumbass why are you bringing it up again

Apparently someone else brought it up before I did. Thank you very much.

 

[Arethusa]

Apparently someone else brought it up before I did. Thank you very much.

Uhm, actually, no. No one did.