So I tried TF2...

[takwu]

Because so many people are saying good things about TF2 in general, and even some former XMP players are playing it, I bought the Orange Box and played TF2 for a week.

I have already been warned that TF2 "doesn't compare to XMP." I have also heard and read a lot about the classes and gametypes in TF2, and how much it encourages "team work." Part of me hoped that, being the latest and greatest class-based and team-based FPS, TF2 should at least be a little bit like XMP.

I would have to say I'm disappointed.

Sure, TF2 is a fun game. It reminds me of Quake 2 CTF. Ok maybe it's better than the old games in terms of some details, but in terms of the play mechanics, it has not progressed much. Especially if you have played seriously in XMP...

OK so on paper TF2 is very advanced: 9 classes, special abilities, several game types, etc... But I think it plays like a 10 year old game. Perhaps I should explain?

I need a medic!
As important as the medic is in TF2... you have to admit it's boring. The main point of First Person Shooter is the last word: shoot! As a medic you spend almost all your time running around healing your teamates. What's the fun in that? Sure in XMP we heal/repair/supply each other, but only briefly in the field to keep your teamates going that much longer; it is simply another way to assist your teamates, not a primary goal. Imagine if the Ranger only had a BB gun and a hand saw

<- I'm hacking this
Perhaps the class that most resembles an XMP class is the Engineer, being very much like a Tech. You can build sentry guns, and have a shotgun if you actually need to shoot. The problem is this "shotgun" is pretty much useless unless your opponent is already seriously hurt - unlike in XMP where a alt shot can kill, so the Tech class is as combat-ready as it is good for placing turrets.

Plus TF2 is setup so that when the map requires lots of sentries and heal stations, you are stuck working on them around the clock. Your game is pretty much like this: go setup sentry, go get more metal, go upgrade sentry, go get more metal, go repair sentry, etc etc etc. Even when the enemy comes, the Eng usually hides between a sentry and a station and keeps repairing as the enemy tries to take it down. It's almost like you're a peon in Warcraft; who wants to be that guy? It is waaay more fun to get out there and spam gas or shotgun shells the same time your turrets are hurting your enemy.

Enemy in our base!
The Spy is a class that's kinda cool at first, but grows old real quick. So you sneak around, pretend to be a friend and stab people in their backs. It's almost like having some TK bastard on your team. So TF2 makes it part of the game, and you get rewarded for it officially. Big deal. It's IMO no more "fun" than being a TK bastard. Your enemy calls you a coward and your team denies your existence. On top of that, your contribution is usually less than spectacular: it's not like killing that one dominating Heavy or that one hard to get Sniper will win you the game. They'll respawn soon enough anyway, well aware of your little trick. Perhaps I'm thick, but I just don't see the "fun" at all.

Ok I just noticed that I bashed all the "Support" classes in TF2. They are the major complaints I have about the game. There are 6 more classes and gametypes. They are not as problematic but instead are pretty much generic (that will lead to my 10 year old game feeling). Maybe I'll continue the rambling tomorrow (I am getting old ).

 

[Flak]

I loved TF2! For about 2 weeks

 

[GreatEmerald]

This will sound strange, but... What's TF2? What's the full name?

 

[haarg]

Team Fortress 2

 

[dutch_gecko]

You forget that XMP had three classes to do the same things as TF2 does in nine. Each TF2 class simply has a very specific job, and you do that job until you change class, whereas in XMP you could easily have three or four main jobs and carry out others as you moved around the map. It's just a different style.

I agree that it makes for slower gameplay, but there's nothing stopping you from changing class every now and then


Stepping away from the classes, imo the gameplay has a lot going for it. It just seems "hairier" than XMP ever did, and I guess I like the rush.

 

[Leo(T.C.K.)]

Guys.................
I don't know TF2, but I played TFC a lot back in the days, it's basically like same only not such cartoon like and funny.
I don't know why they changed it to the cartoon style, I think the original idea of TF2 being more realistic than TFC was was better imo.

First was TF for first quake which I didn't try, but thanks to HL generation 3(well first I played standalone TFC, not with hl gen 3) and stuff I have tried that mod for half-life and I really liked it, also together with some downloadable bots for it.
U2xmp simplified these things into three only classes (basically this concept was meant to be in original game too as there is even u2xmp gametype, unsupported one).
As far as I know, TF was the first game or one of the first ones to feature these "job" classes, instead of players going and picking weapons, but u2xmp brought the idea a bit to another dimension and that's what I like about it, plus the deploy points etc which was not in TF.

 

[dutch_gecko]

TF2 is very different from TFC.

 

[takwu]

Interesting to see these replies. I mostly agree with what is said. I'll come back to the comment about switching classes, which I agree would help, but not enough.

Back to more rambling. I explained in details how the abtly named "Support" classes are boring to play. So you are better off using the other classes, at least if fun is what you're after.

<- I've heavily mined this area
The Offensive classes Soldier (rocket launcher) and Pyro (flame thrower), together with the Defensive class Heavy (chain gun) pretty much equal the Gunner class. They are used to take out enemy defenses, as well as doing the routine but central role of midfields. They are IMO the most fun to play in TF2. Basically just think of the cliches "shoot everything that moves" and "blow up everything that doesn't move." This is the part where it feels very generic like the good old days of Doom and Quake series of games. While it's fun, you have been there and done that, for the last decade or so.

I've got an Artifact!
The remaining classes, Scout (Offensive), Demo and Sniper (both Defensive), are much like the Ranger class. They are fast but fragile; hard to use but deadly. They are best for doing quick offenses, and are also effective in disrupting enemy midfields. This is where some strategies and skills are required. However like I hinted before, only to the level of every CTF game out there - no where near the complexity of XMP strategies. Snipers die when their cover is gone; Scouts can't do much until the area is clear; and Demos have mid range weapons only (grenades and sticky bombs).

We need more Deploy Points!
So all classes have their one or two strengths but lots of limitations. Basically you can't stick to one class for an entire game, unless you are a member of the Repetitive Gaming Association. So obviously you should switch classes as required. Some players switch classes in XMP too. One problem is that you have to wait for a respawn; so it's not like you just suicide and do it. You have to make sure your team can afford your suicide, or you have to wait until the enemies kill you - which is often too late. The problem is worse because, unlike in XMP, you often respawn near your base, which means a lot of running, with no jetpacks nor Raptors.

Another problem with switching classes in TF2 is the fact that there are 9 classes. How many Medics do we have? Engs? We need another Heavy. No wait there are too many Snipers. The fact that you have to manage the variety of the classes within your team is beyond any public team can handle; it would be a nightmare even if you have a clan match with military-like chain of command in your clan. Request transfer to Scout class. Request denied! Jack respawn as Soldier class immediately and assist in the frontline... But I need to repair this sentry...

<- We now own this
Personally I switch between similar classes, only as required in the heat of the battle. I use Soldier primarily, and switch to Pyro or Heavy if the situation fits: Pyro if Soldier's firing rate simply can't handle the flow of enemies emerging from a bottleneck. Heavy if same thing but a wider area. As you can see I'm pretty much playing Gunner in TF2. Only that it's much more mindless shooting than what the Gunner does in XMP.

Perhaps after explaining all the classes you can see why this game has problems. I'll wrap up tomorrow on game types, balance, and conclusions.

 

[Twisted Metal]

I need a medic!
As important as the medic is in TF2... you have to admit it's boring. The main point of First Person Shooter is the last word: shoot! As a medic you spend almost all your time running around healing your teamates. What's the fun in that? Sure in XMP we heal/repair/supply each other, but only briefly in the field to keep your teamates going that much longer; it is simply another way to assist your teamates, not a primary goal. Imagine if the Ranger only had a BB gun and a hand saw

You do realize that they just added 3 new weapons/unlocks to the medic, so replayability is definitely there. Sure, the medic is not for everyone, but he can be a very fun and rewarding class when played right. Judging by your description, you've never encountered a combat medic yet. The medics speed and his bone saw are a very powerful combination. TF2 is one of few games in which melee combat is extremely effective and actually a large part of the game. I've seen huge kill streaks with that bonesaw, and with the new ubersaw (I forget what it's called) it charges 25% of the uber meter with each hit. In four hits you got a full uber going. Not bad.

<- I'm hacking this
Perhaps the class that most resembles an XMP class is the Engineer, being very much like a Tech. You can build sentry guns, and have a shotgun if you actually need to shoot. The problem is this "shotgun" is pretty much useless unless your opponent is already seriously hurt - unlike in XMP where a alt shot can kill, so the Tech class is as combat-ready as it is good for placing turrets.

You couldn't be more wrong here. If you think the shotgun is useless in TF2, you seriously need to play more. You do need to remember that the shotgun is a close ranged weapon, so shooting across the map will of course be useless. But you can definitely take a close target down quickly if you know how to aim. A good pyro will set a target on fire and then backpedal while blasting away with the shotgun. It really is a deadly combination.

Plus TF2 is setup so that when the map requires lots of sentries and heal stations, you are stuck working on them around the clock. Your game is pretty much like this: go setup sentry, go get more metal, go upgrade sentry, go get more metal, go repair sentry, etc etc etc. Even when the enemy comes, the Eng usually hides between a sentry and a station and keeps repairing as the enemy tries to take it down. It's almost like you're a peon in Warcraft; who wants to be that guy? It is waaay more fun to get out there and spam gas or shotgun shells the same time your turrets are hurting your enemy.

The problem here is that you're playing on pubs in which no one uses teamwork. A good team will help to protect your sentry so you can run around and do something besides camping your sentry gun. On full servers, you usually have at least 2 or 3 engineers, and hopefully you help eachother out by repairing and watching eachothers sentry guns.

Enemy in our base!
The Spy is a class that's kinda cool at first, but grows old real quick. So you sneak around, pretend to be a friend and stab people in their backs. It's almost like having some TK bastard on your team. So TF2 makes it part of the game, and you get rewarded for it officially. Big deal. It's IMO no more "fun" than being a TK bastard. Your enemy calls you a coward and your team denies your existence. On top of that, your contribution is usually less than spectacular: it's not like killing that one dominating Heavy or that one hard to get Sniper will win you the game. They'll respawn soon enough anyway, well aware of your little trick. Perhaps I'm thick, but I just don't see the "fun" at all.

You played for a week. No offense, but you did NOT master the spy in a week. There are extremely proficient spies out there, and it can be one of the most rewarding experiences when done right. Who else can run alongside the enemy team and drop half of their players within seconds? The spy is also a very tough class to use, and without proper teamwork, can be a real pain in the ass. Dual spies are a dangerous combo, if you can pair up and communicate with another good spy I recommend you do so and see how effective it can be. You see, the enemy team thinks the situation is "all clear" once they drop the first spy. But let me tell you, they have another thing coming.

 

[Leo(T.C.K.)]

But the gameplay base and the classes and the strategy all is same like original TF/TFC, so.

 

[dutch_gecko]

But the gameplay base and the classes and the strategy all is same like original TF/TFC, so.

Not really. The aim is the same (at least in the capture point/CTF maps), and the names of the classes are the same, and that's about it really. The movement is different, there are no grenades (except the demo's pipe bombs), and the overall gameplay is generally slower. It's just as frenetic, but in a very different way, and seems to have been designed to be more rewarding for new players.

 

[Bleeder]

there are no grenades

sums it up pretty well

 

[takwu]

Thanks for the reply Twisted Metal. I realize I have probably exaggerated the problems with TF2 classes, in a general sense. However, it should be clear that I am comparing to XMP; everything I have said about TF2 are relative to this game. Therefore I may be a bit harsh on some issues.

In summary, the Support classes in TF2 are weaker than the other classes in terms of combat. Instead their primary functions are the "other" tasks: Medic provides on-field replenishments, Engineer provides automated defenses, and Spy does penetration. This contrasts with XMP where every class has some support function, so you are switching between combat and support during the same deployment (spawn). The other classes in TF2 are more generic for FPS games.

Ok I think I am done with the classes. As I said I'll talk about the game types. I don't know exactly how many game types there are in TF2, but the majority of the servers I've seen are running either Control Points, Payload, or CTF.

We need Energy!
Control Points is like Onslaught. So all players focus in certain areas. The usual maps "lock" the points so that it's quite linear which one you can attack next. It dumbs down the game type by limiting flexibility. Payload is similar again but the point moves along a fixed route. Usually it ends up getting stuck at certain areas of the map, in effect making these areas like Control Points. They both play like XMP-OneGen, the XMP map with a single generator and no Artifacts - I think that says it all.

CTF is... well, CTF. It made famous as a 3rd party mod for Quake, and became an official out-of-box game mode in Quake II. (I typed the link for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture_the_flag) That's when I think CTF was defined, and no longer improved upon (unless you add other objectives, as Legend Entertainment did for XMP). TF2, 10 years after Q2, is no exception. It adds nothing to the gametype, and the usual strategies apply. Sadly that's my favourite of the 3 gametypes I played in TF2 - and it plays exactly like Q2CTF.

As a side note, our <3 XMP-Garden plays like CTF, with too much energy and not enough deploy points. That is why in XMP-cXp-CrystalGarden2 I delibrately turned the Stronghold gen into a dp, with no change to the gen output level, which hopefully brings that special XMP balance back into the map without breaking it.

Speaking of balance, that's another issue with TF2. But it looks like I rambled on too much again. So maybe I'll prospone it for tomorrow for the conclusion, hopefully it'll be short...

 

[GreatEmerald]

What about VCTF? Epic added something interesting in CTF too No vehicles in TF2, right?

 

[takwu]

Well I have to say I'm unfamiliar with vCTF. I haven't even played UT2004 yet. But according to this website, it's still CTF:
http://www.custompc.co.uk/handsonguides/2418/game-mode-4-vehicle-capture-the-flag/

So I'll talk about balanace in TF2 and some general comments on gameplay.

Get rid of those deployables!
Certain classes are simply unbeatable in certain situations. In narrow pathways, the demoman can easily slow down traffic almost to a halt with stickybombs and grenades. If control points are far enough from each other, a spy or two can easily cap an abandoned point, and no one can get there fast enough when they realize it is being cap'd. If your intelligence (the flag) is near a supply cabinet, an engineer can keep repairing a sentry and may never get killed. There are other situations like these where the combination of a class, the map, and the gametype creates a balancing problem that simply makes the game less playable.

I need a ride!
All in all, TF2 feels like a lot of mindless shooting to me, with a limited sense of objectives, and even less in strategies. To be fair, in these two weeks of playing public games I have not seen how real clan matches go. I have seen quite a few stacked teams in pubs doing some tricks, and I was not impressed. Judging from the game itself, I really don't see much more than the usual CTF strategies that has been played over and over. Having said that, I'd be lmao if a full team of spies manages to pull off an Order 66.

Finally, I'd like to add, as much as I criticize TF2, there is a certain amount of fun to be had in mindless shooting, and that's why these games are so popular. Unfortunately, perhaps that's also why there aren't many games like XMP, where you really have to watch, think, and learn. The XMP community is a unique one, where we are all both smart and skilled. I can only hope that one day we'll find a game that is at least a little bit like XMP.

I've dropped an Artifact!
At the base.

 

[Leo(T.C.K.)]

VCTF is CTF with bigger maps and vehicles, nothing else. And you can't carry a flag in some vehicles too in order to make it balanced, etc.

Although u2xmp is based on a ctf element, it's not required to capture all artifacts in order to win.
It wasn't based on ctf in beginning at all, it was meant to be done by artifact spawners, artifacts were not at base and you had to search for them originally, but they added ctf elements because multiplayer at u2 ws removed together with ctf, so they wanted a more ctf like elements to bring into it.
U2xmp was meant to be in Unreal2 originally and there is still class with that name and there were energy source classes too and replicators (deploy points).

 

[GreatEmerald]

Yea, but vehicles add a nice element in the gameplay. And don't forget that there are turrets there too, even Link Turrets (manned-only). When you don't want to think too much, and just have a CTF without any spawn wait, any energy and hacking, VCTF is a good alternative... That's why I enjoy converting XMP maps to VCTF and ONS Those Generators are almost meant to be Power Nodes...

 

[dutch_gecko]

Get rid of those deployables!
Certain classes are simply unbeatable in certain situations. In narrow pathways, the demoman can easily slow down traffic almost to a halt with stickybombs and grenades. If control points are far enough from each other, a spy or two can easily cap an abandoned point, and no one can get there fast enough when they realize it is being cap'd. If your intelligence (the flag) is near a supply cabinet, an engineer can keep repairing a sentry and may never get killed. There are other situations like these where the combination of a class, the map, and the gametype creates a balancing problem that simply makes the game less playable.

Although I agree with most of what you say, I'm stunned that you think this is a bad thing. "Certain classes excelling in certain areas? Ridiculous! Every class should be the same!"

 

[takwu]

I'm talking about balance between classes. Classes are obviously not the same, but they should be equal. It is one thing to have a class better in an area, but it's quite another when that class is so much better that it's impossible to beat. The problem with TF2 here is that the map can (and often does) make a certain class unbeatable, or another class completely useless. In a balanced design, each class should at least have a chance to be playable in most (if not all) situations.

 

[dutch_gecko]

I'm talking about balance between classes. Classes are obviously not the same, but they should be equal. It is one thing to have a class better in an area, but it's quite another when that class is so much better that it's impossible to beat. The problem with TF2 here is that the map can (and often does) make a certain class unbeatable, or another class completely useless. In a balanced design, each class should at least have a chance to be playable in most (if not all) situations.

Again I disagree, on both points. In any situation it is possible to beat a class which is dominating in a particular situation. Just because the way to handle that is different from normal gameplay, and you haven't found it yet, doesn't mean it's not there. For example, if a demoman is stickying up a narrow corridor, get a soldier to shoot a few rockets in to scatter the bombs, and send a pyro in straight afterwards to toast that demo. You know, teamwork. It's not like the word is in the title or anything.

I also disagree that any class should work well in all situations - this is clearly just bull****. Why should a scout survive if he gets caught up in a massive brawl? Why should a spy be able to survive a shootout? A pyro as a long range class? These are situations that that class is not meant to get caught up in, and if it does, you're doing it wrong, and deserve to die for it.