Religious/Evolutionary Debate Thread

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QUALTHWAR

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ViSion said:
Qualthwar as I stated in my first post....
What I have done is bring up many examples to show that what religious people have as a weapon of truth is nothing more than a “belief.” Most religious people have been brought up to believe blindly, and they don’t bother to ask the hard questions. If they do ask a hard question, they get some lame answer that they just accept. Here’s a perfect example: Question: where did god come from? Answer: God has always been.

Or there are the people who tell you you’re not supposed to ask such questions, or question god. What happens to retarded people? What happens to little children? The list goes on…. Daddy (child of Adam asking question) why is mommy (Eve) screwing her own son, my brother? Adam replies: It’s okay, you can screw your brother next when she’s finished.

As far as interpretations of the bible, I’m not talking about individuals, I’m talking about religious groups or denominations. A catholic priest teaches something different from a rabbi. A Baptist minister teaches something different from a Methodist. I’m talking about people who “do” read the bible a lot and they have different interpretations of it. That, plus the fact that not all Baptist ministers believe the same thing, etc. etc.

The cradle of civilization? The cradle of civilization was Africa. The evidence for it is overwhelming. Moreover, not only has the “missing link” been found, but multiple examples of the missing link have been found. Lucy was the first one discovered. The fossil evidence is strong and it continues to grow and support theories of evolution. The problem is, most religious people stick their hands over their ears and go “La la la la, I can’t hear you” when people talk about evolutionary evidence.

Lucy is a fossil that’s about 40% complete. Although we don’t have the complete fossil, what’s missing on one side is present on the other. So, we have a very good indication of what the complete fossil would look like. We can tell by the pelvis bone that Lucy walked upright on two legs, but she was still the size of an ape. Her brain cavity was much smaller than ours, but this would soon change. Walking upright changed everything; I’ve already given examples why in previous posts.

The fossil record shows more and more upright walkers as time progressed and how the size of the brain increased over time due to this upright posture. Some early precursors to modern man had brains one third the size of ours, and later examples showed man with a brain two thirds the size of modern man. While this brain capacity thing was going on, fossils show other changes occurring such as our size (height and weight) increasing. Also, fossil evidence shows how tool-making progressed during these changes. As our brains grew, our ability to solve complex problems grew.

It takes a lot of brain power to create a clovis point, the spear tips used for hunting. Many calculated strikes with a rock flaked off chips from another rock, and it really took a lot of work to create these super sharp weapons. Fossil records show that these clovis points became more and more sophisticated as time went by and that examples of more sophisticated points were found alongside more sophisticated humans. (humans with larger brains)

You know, this is just the tip of the iceberg. All this knowledge didn’t come from “watching television.” Books, professors, scientific magazines, talking with others; it all contributed to my knowledge.

“Qualthwar you claim religion has been sculpted well the same could be said more so for your argument. You have been touting through out this thread how the bible is nothing more than mans imagination…” Religion has been sculpted, and as far as “the same could be said for my arguments”….. I don’t even know what that’s supposed to mean. Science tries to present facts. Science is a process whereby many people attempt to verify results of other scientists. Science doesn’t try to leave things out or inject untruths to make something work. It is what it is. If something doesn’t stand up to scientific scrutiny, then it fails. No sculpting occurs to pass something off as true when it isn’t.

“You call predicting the next four world powers in 600 B.C. (Q)vague and obscure (FB)political satire….” I’m sorry, but you’re just rambling here. I don’t know what it is you’re trying to say. Are you saying some specific predictions were made that nobody else could predict or what?

Don’t take my example of “jesus killing a boy because he bumped into his shoulder” as a single example. It’s just another nail in the coffin for religion. It just shows that man decided what books to include in the bible, not god. I’ve presented many examples during this long discussion.
 

QUALTHWAR

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Chrysaor said:
I know this is kind of personal, but Qualthwar have you ever found any logic in love?
Love is not tangible; it’s illusive. You can try to quantify it, but the gauge would be a relative one.

Love seems to be illogical in the sense that love is blind. I’ve seen people who think, for example, their wife or girlfriend is beautiful and “perfect in their eyes” so to speak, but the girl in question would seem nothing special to most people. I’m talking about inward and outward beauty. It seems illogical that a person would consider this woman to be so beautiful.

I think love has more to do with a need than anything else.
 

Nachimir

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I think you're right.

Being "In Love" as you describe shares symptoms with addiction, obsessive compulsive disorder, and psychosis. I suspect it's accepted because it can be consensual; essentially a stalker and lover are both just "the recently besotted", feeling the same thing but getting different responses...

I think "love" is a need for positive social interaction, at varying levels of intimacy and duration. As you say, it can't be measured. Though duration is measurable it's not a particularly useful measurement because there's no absolute correlation between time and affection, and "intimacy" has too many variables to actually be a measurement (i.e. "Being in a crowded room" "Not being loved enough during childhood").

Abraham Maslow observed that love seems to be the first human need that is not just conative (striving for fulfilment, deficit based), but also expressive. People need to love actively, not just be loved.
 
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GoAt

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i work with someone on occasion who is from a tribe in africa. now he claims he is the first to leave his tribe (of about 400 or so ppl he said) and move to america in search of education.
when asked about jesus (and i love his response) he said... "who?"
when asked about his belifes regarding death (since relgion is mainly about whree you go when you die) he said their belifes do not involve a god in the way we precive it. he said that after the body is cremated the spirit roams free throughout the earth and universe. his tribe does not belive in a god that controls everything.


now cat_fuzz or anyone else... explain to me why this is wrong (keep in mind that said tribe has been around for thousands of years according to the african) and you are right.

why is it that someone who has been practicing their belifes long before jesus came around is wrong and you are right?
 

QUALTHWAR

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The age of the earth cannot be denied. Dick Clark is 4.6 billion years old and the earth was formed 5 days before Clark was born.

Eskimos help us to see the folly of our ways. Eskimos thought the northern lights were anything but what they really are, charged partials hitting the upper atmosphere. These proud people are not dummies, they have something like 57 different words for snow. That has to be tough on quiz day.

But most now realize that they were wrong all these years about the lights. I bet some still hold onto the old traditions, but that seems tantamount to hanging onto religious beliefs when there is strong evidence to the contrary.

Check out the crazy stuff people used to believe and you can see how far we’ve come in our knowledge since then:
http://image.gsfc.nasa.gov/poetry/alaska/myths.html
 

Chrysaor

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Sorry for the delay, I've been a state of decompression lately, soaking up the days with Civilization 3 of all things. I never play computer games anymore.

If being in love is a state of psychosis, then I firmly believe it to be the more human reality. I am not "in love" with any woman, and there is a difference between this world that I love so dearly, and being "in love" with something, which I am not. My roommate Jamie always says that loving is the difference between knowing what something is instead of who. Who is where they go to school and how many sisters they have. Knowing what they are is the deepest appreciation, because all that superficial and superfluous information becomes understandable in light of knowing what drives it.

I find love and life to be inseparable in this goal. Your life and any amount of happiness or satisfaction you have in this life is dictated by your ability to understand it on your own terms, however distant. By doing this the superficial and superfluous actions seem less important and hopefully have some reasoning.

Mr. Maslow's hierarchy is interesting and I seem to see that with my desire to belong, to attain a woman, I didn't quite fit into his self-actualizing level of person, atleast until very recently. I find this to be the problem with most heirarchies here, and that is that they don't seem so sequential to me, and maybe somethings work better as equals than one subserviant to the other.

This thread has not made my belief in "god" stronger or weaker, more it has emphasized how little it matters either way. I don't believe we have a soul different from our body or that we go somewhere when we die, from most other perspectives I am an atheist, and I could say that to be the case, and it really wouldn't alter my position very drastically. But it is that desire to keep passion, hope and love in my worldview, humanizing it, that leads me to leave god in my own equation. I was thinking about being an atheist this morning and promptly fell down the stairs with a bowl of cereal in hand. It made for a terrifibly funny mess. Judging this world scientifically is to say that we are without bias in establishing that system, it is impossible to judge anything without bias, I am trying to accept that fact into how I percieve reality.
 

QUALTHWAR

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The green “whatever” emoticon was picked for this thread for a reason. Not only is this another rehash of a tired thread, but I’ve never met anyone who changed their mind during such a discussion. But if a thread of doubt has been placed in someone’s mind and it sparks them to ask deeper questions, it was worth the turmoil.
 
GoAt said:
i work with someone on occasion who is from a tribe in africa. now he claims he is the first to leave his tribe (of about 400 or so ppl he said) and move to america in search of education.
when asked about jesus (and i love his response) he said... "who?"
when asked about his belifes regarding death (since relgion is mainly about whree you go when you die) he said their belifes do not involve a god in the way we precive it. he said that after the body is cremated the spirit roams free throughout the earth and universe. his tribe does not belive in a god that controls everything.


now cat_fuzz or anyone else... explain to me why this is wrong (keep in mind that said tribe has been around for thousands of years according to the african) and you are right.

why is it that someone who has been practicing their belifes long before jesus came around is wrong and you are right?

The answer to this question is that the African guy believes in a different spiritual state of being and therefore his interpretation of faith is wrong compared to say...a Christian's. Basically all religious beliefs are in the same vein as far as I'm concerned. A bunch of mythology with some good moral beliefs (well most of them) that is often carried out wrongly by human beings. Everyone wants to think their pony is the prettiest.

I will say that African spiritual beliefs are some of the most interesting forms of religion I've ever read about.
 
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GoAt

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lets go back to my grandparents.

(i have posted this before and am going to post it again)
a few years back my brother was staying at our grandparents (whom you all know are fanatics regarding their christian beliefs) he gets a bloody nose, but instead of the usual of stuffing toilet paper up there and then carrying on, my grandparents freaked and prayed over him for 45 min.
the only attention the nose got was a good drowning in anoiting oil.
but not only did they pray over it, they had him tilt his head back (wich is WRONG as blood can run down the windpipe causing drowning and death)


my only concern was if my brother had hemophila
 

QUALTHWAR

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What your grandparents did was tantamount to scientology. They don’t believe in taking people to doctors or hospitals and there have been cases (law suits) where people have died and could have been easily saved if they had medical attention.

We have a city nearby that has a big scientology building and the people are walking all over the town with white shirts and ties on…. and probably curable diseases.
 

Reign

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QUALTHWAR said:
The green “whatever” emoticon was picked for this thread for a reason. Not only is this another rehash of a tired thread, but I’ve never met anyone who changed their mind during such a discussion. But if a thread of doubt has been placed in someone’s mind and it sparks them to ask deeper questions, it was worth the turmoil.

To be honest, the only thread of doubt that has been placed in my mind is directly related to your credibility. You see, when you represented yourself as having at least a fundamental understanding of Christianity due to your "background", I was left with the impression that you were prepared to ask serious questions that would reflect an honest attempt at soul searching.

You instead chose to play the jester role by posing silly and obvious nonsense questions that any Sunday school child would know the answer to, in what appeared to be an attempt to ridicule rather than research. I don't know about anyone else but I personally found this less than genuine approach to be rather disappointing. You chose to ask very few meaningful or relevant question concerning Christianity. You also chose to supply little more than your own conjecture, based on what appears to be a fundamental lack of knowledge on your part.

For example, when you state things like:
"After learning that some books of the bible were omitted, this offered further proof that the bible was nothing more than a consolidation of stories, not a book that god said to write. "
you prove that you are not even close to being serious about discussing the issue. The majority of your posts are as fowled up as that quoted example and it would take at least a few months to separate all of your interjections from Biblical truth.

1. After learning that some books of the bible were omitted...
If "they" were omitted, how can you call them "books of the bible". Clearly if they didn't make it to the final "cut" that the Bible consists of, then they weren't actually books of the Bible in the first place. Just considering or reviewing something for inclusion into the canon does not make it a "book of the Bible". In any case, the statement.. "After learning that some books of the bible" ..is false.

Are you referring to Hebrew scriptures or maybe unverified letters of apostles? What books exactally. The only thing you say is "some books were _________for_________ reason". Your statements in this thread usually levy charges without detail or substance. In the end, you manage to give one rather lame example of a silly story about Jesus killing some kid and so forth. Clearly if you had done even the slightest amount of research into Christianity, you would have realized why such a story is fake.

To start, you would have chosen to research what the word "Christ" means in the first place. The word Christ is a Greek word which when translated means anointed one or Messiah in Hebrew. This is important to understand because if you realize that the anointing refers to the Holy Spirit and that Jesus's super natural power was derived from that very anointing, you will also understand that He did not posses any special power until after He was baptized. It was at this point that He was "anointed with the Holy Ghost and power". Clearly anything stating that He worked miracles before that time would be fake. Anyone who researched and soul searched as you said that you did Qualth, would certainly understand all of this. It is odd therefore, that you seem to know little or none of this. At least your posts appear to indicate it.

2. ...this offered further proof that the bible was nothing more than a consolidation of stories...
Bzzzt, no, sorry "this" offered zero proof that the Bible was...ex cetera, ex cetera. If this is what passes as proof or "critical thinking" these days, it's no wonder that some people believe that there is proof that the Human species evolved when clearly there is none. There is only ones' belief in certain interpretations of data....nothing more.

3. ...not a book that god said to write.
No one said that God told someone to write the Bible as I've stated many times before. No one was disputing that the Bible is a collection. The scriptures within the Bible however, were inspired by God and there is no proof to deny that truth. There is however, proof that the scriptures are primarily inspired by the All Mighty. It's simple really, just follow the instructions and you will get the promises results. When people refuse to do that, they have no proof.

Now you see, because your posts are basically riddled with multiple layers of "wrongness", it takes all that I posted, just to break down and isolate the places where you messed up. The problem here is that just about all of your posts are like that. Since I'm not prepared to believe that you are an idiot, I can only conclude that your statements are purposely crafted to contort and distort information for your own amusement. If this is in fact the case, you should have come clean about it from the start. If that is how you get your kicks these days then that's your business. I just though that you were better than that really. Oh well, I guess you did manage to open my eyes about something after all. GG Qualth :tup:
 

QUALTHWAR

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It’s after 5:30 in the morning where I live, and I briefly looked at your post, only to see one quote that you take issue with. I'll respond to your post when I have some time. In the mean time, why don’t you look around for books of the bible that were omitted and see what you find? And, perhaps, at the same time, you can explain to me why this seems to be a point of contention while many of my other relevant posts are ignored, because you have to make up some flabbergasting answer to try and explain my sound reasoning.
 

QUALTHWAR

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Oh, by the way, this kind of argument emanating from you, “Since I'm not prepared to believe that you are an idiot, I can only conclude that your statements are purposely crafted to contort and distort information for your own amusement.”

… was described in my Critical Thinking course where we learned when people are losing an argument and don’t have a leg to stand on, they resort to a primitive position of conflict. Some people resort to name-calling, while others turn to violence. I expected better from you. Your only “conclusion” should be that I’m striving to seek the truth. I am a scientist, sir, and I do not intend to “contort” or “distort” any truths.
 
Reign said:
To be honest, the only thread of doubt that has been placed in my mind is directly related to your credibility. You see, when you represented yourself as having at least a fundamental understanding of Christianity due to your "background", I was left with the impression that you were prepared to ask serious questions that would reflect an honest attempt at soul searching.

You instead chose to play the jester role by posing silly and obvious nonsense questions that any Sunday school child would know the answer to, in what appeared to be an attempt to ridicule rather than research. I don't know about anyone else but I personally found this less than genuine approach to be rather disappointing. You chose to ask very few meaningful or relevant question concerning Christianity. You also chose to supply little more than your own conjecture, based on what appears to be a fundamental lack of knowledge on your part.

For example, when you state things like: you prove that you are not even close to being serious about discussing the issue. The majority of your posts are as fowled up as that quoted example and it would take at least a few months to separate all of your interjections from Biblical truth.

1. After learning that some books of the bible were omitted...
If "they" were omitted, how can you call them "books of the bible". Clearly if they didn't make it to the final "cut" that the Bible consists of, then they weren't actually books of the Bible in the first place. Just considering or reviewing something for inclusion into the canon does not make it a "book of the Bible". In any case, the statement.. "After learning that some books of the bible" ..is false.

Are you referring to Hebrew scriptures or maybe unverified letters of apostles? What books exactally. The only thing you say is "some books were _________for_________ reason". Your statements in this thread usually levy charges without detail or substance. In the end, you manage to give one rather lame example of a silly story about Jesus killing some kid and so forth. Clearly if you had done even the slightest amount of research into Christianity, you would have realized why such a story is fake.

To start, you would have chosen to research what the word "Christ" means in the first place. The word Christ is a Greek word which when translated means anointed one or Messiah in Hebrew. This is important to understand because if you realize that the anointing refers to the Holy Spirit and that Jesus's super natural power was derived from that very anointing, you will also understand that He did not posses any special power until after He was baptized. It was at this point that He was "anointed with the Holy Ghost and power". Clearly anything stating that He worked miracles before that time would be fake. Anyone who researched and soul searched as you said that you did Qualth, would certainly understand all of this. It is odd therefore, that you seem to know little or none of this. At least your posts appear to indicate it.

2. ...this offered further proof that the bible was nothing more than a consolidation of stories...
Bzzzt, no, sorry "this" offered zero proof that the Bible was...ex cetera, ex cetera. If this is what passes as proof or "critical thinking" these days, it's no wonder that some people believe that there is proof that the Human species evolved when clearly there is none. There is only ones' belief in certain interpretations of data....nothing more.

3. ...not a book that god said to write.
No one said that God told someone to write the Bible as I've stated many times before. No one was disputing that the Bible is a collection. The scriptures within the Bible however, were inspired by God and there is no proof to deny that truth. There is however, proof that the scriptures are primarily inspired by the All Mighty. It's simple really, just follow the instructions and you will get the promises results. When people refuse to do that, they have no proof.

Now you see, because your posts are basically riddled with multiple layers of "wrongness", it takes all that I posted, just to break down and isolate the places where you messed up. The problem here is that just about all of your posts are like that. Since I'm not prepared to believe that you are an idiot, I can only conclude that your statements are purposely crafted to contort and distort information for your own amusement. If this is in fact the case, you should have come clean about it from the start. If that is how you get your kicks these days then that's your business. I just though that you were better than that really. Oh well, I guess you did manage to open my eyes about something after all. GG Qualth :tup:


Some things you said in there struck my attention and I felt the need to reply.


If this is what passes as proof or "critical thinking" these days, it's no wonder that some people believe that there is proof that the Human species evolved when clearly there is none. There is only ones' belief in certain interpretations of data....nothing more.

Clearly? Well what is clear to me is that this "data" has more "evidence" to support the belief of evolution than religion has evidence to support the belief in God. Scientific data is just that, physical objects that can be studied and examined by physical means. I wouldn't say the bible is even in the same ballpark when it comes to physical data. But you also said this:

No one said that God told someone to write the Bible as I've stated many times before. No one was disputing that the Bible is a collection. The scriptures within the Bible however, were inspired by God and there is no proof to deny that truth.

I was taught that the authors of the bible were influenced by God. But just like what you are saying, it is an empty statement. No proof to deny that fact? What the hell does that mean? How do you know what the authors were being inspired by God? How can anyone possibly know that...oh wait it was written down. Yeah, of course. The same way it was written down that Medusa turned people into stone. But naturally, it's easy to see how one ancient statement from a human being is mythology while another is "fact" and that of course has more "proof" than a scientific theory which has physical evidence to support it. Why don't you smell what you're shoveling.
Yeah they are both theories, but evolution has "data" and "evidence" while religion has a "collection of stories". Nothing you are gonna tell us is gonna disprove that fact.


Now you see, because your posts are basically riddled with multiple layers of "wrongness"

What wrongness...aside from criticising his wordplay you haven't said a single thing that makes anything he said less valid. Reign, you're doing the same thing my teachers did. Someone fronts "difficult" discussion about religion and they get ridiculed for their approach to the debate when they are just really asking simple questions. Qualthwar isn't asking anything more than the basics. I wouldn't call myself a biblical scholar but I've been forced fed this stuff enough to know that my religion lacked the ability to answer the real important, basic questions.

We all agree the bible is a collection of tales. What we disagree on is if they are nothing more than that. For all your talk and telling Q how dissappointed you are in his "ranting" you can't provide a single sentence that can possibly and properly rebuttal his debate. If all you're gonna do is vaguely reference something YOU yourself happen to interpret from your faith then don't bother cus then you are less credible than you claim him to be.

You can shake your head at the "theories" of evolution but when you cut through all the bullshiit the real "truth" is that while they are both beliefs, evolution has physical evidence that can be studied and eventually proven and religion has only the word of faith and that's all it ever had.

Well I for one am also dissappointed. I guess I'll never get a straight, no BS response from the religious side of this arguement. I still consider myself in the middle but both feet are leaning toward science at this point.