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Religious/Evolutionary Debate Thread

Discussion in 'Other Stuff' started by QUALTHWAR, Dec 2, 2004.

  1. Chrysaor

    Chrysaor Lord of the Pants

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    As long as his bad ass isn't as large as that thing in your avatar, we should be okay.

    " http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6742617 "
    I'm often awed by the universe, it's a truly phenomenal machine.

    Glad I could be quotable too.
     
  2. bobtheking

    bobtheking Monkey in a bucket

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    according to you (christians), god created us thousands of years ago. those are billions of light years away, so if that is him, he actually created them first by billions of years.
     
  3. Rukee

    Rukee Coffee overclocks the overclocker!!

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    Looks like maybe he knew you were going to be trouble Bob. :B
     
  4. QUALTHWAR

    QUALTHWAR Baitshop opening soon.

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    where is heaven supposed to be? in outer space somewhere?
    where is hell supposed to be? in the center of the earth somewhere?

    really, where are these places supposed to be.
     
  5. Stakhanov

    Stakhanov Invisible Pink Unicorn

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    Nah , we all know Hell is an alternate dimension that we can accidentaly open a portal to during researches on teleportation and warp travel :p
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2004
  6. Chrysaor

    Chrysaor Lord of the Pants

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    Regarding a Male God, This book I've been reading lately makes a point about creator gods usually being goddesses. Even the creation and flood myths that Christianity seems to be based off of a female creatress. I would guess that it is merely the ambiguity of the Hebrew language and a little chauvanism on behalf of those who have come since that he became the "Heavenly father". Maybe the switch comes when they attempted to go from polytheism to monotheism.
     
  7. QUALTHWAR

    QUALTHWAR Baitshop opening soon.

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    Some of that makes a lot of sense. People might perceive a creator as a woman because they give birth, which is creation in a way.

    The fact that men dominated many aspects of the world years ago, education being an example, gives credence to the notion of a man god.

    But the question remains: In you humbler opinion, where is heaven and where is hell?
     
  8. Chrysaor

    Chrysaor Lord of the Pants

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    I believe in neither personally. I guess it could be explained as nothing more than a level of spiritual consciousness. Your soul just goes to one of these levels and we can't see them because they're some sort of alternate dimension. Heaven and Hell have always seemed like a daydreams and scaretactics to me. Mythologically based, I see much more use, but feeling like you're actually going there doesn't work for me. Judaism/Christianity is shaped by slavery and oppresion, going to heaven is a nice reward for ****ty lives. I think we're wise enough or well off to understand that this is all we're going to know. Atleast as this incarnation of Self.
     
  9. QUALTHWAR

    QUALTHWAR Baitshop opening soon.

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    After learning that some books of the bible were omitted, this offered further proof that the bible was nothing more than a consolidation of stories, not a book that god said to write. A site I was at said that there were several reasons why some books were omitted:

    • Some ancient texts were considered authoritative but were dropped before the canon was "closed."
    • Some well-regarded books were written too late and/or not believed to be apostolic, so they were not included. Nevertheless some outside books, such as the Didache, are as old or even older than some of the books that made the New Testament.
    • Other books were accepted by some Christian communities but not others. Sometimes:
    o they were labeled "heretical" by more powerful Christian groups like Rome
    o they were not popular or known well enough by Greek-speaking Christians
    • Still other books never came close to making it "inside." In addition to heretical books that were excluded, other books were considered to be too outrageous, even though they were very popular. (These books also tended to be written much later than canonical books)
    • A number of books were lost or destroyed.
    • Some old writers were never considered as scripture but have historical value; they may be letters, or histories, or stories, or other kinds of records.


    Among some that were too outrageous, they had this story:

    The Infancy Gospel of Thomas opens with a story about five-year-old Jesus making twelve sparrows out of mud. He claps his hands; they come to life and fly away. A nice story but in the next story, child Jesus curses a boy and makes him wither up. Later Jesus is angered when another child bumps into his shoulder and strikes him dead! This gospel, which may be as old as the second century, is a different book from the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas.

    This got me to thinking about jesus having the power of god from birth. I was wondering if he did have godlike powers from birth, how is that supposed to work when he’s a very little boy? If he has a temper tantrum and says something like, “I wish you were dead.”, does the person drop dead?

    Because of these hurdles, I bet there aren’t many accounts in the bible explaining what jesus did as a boy.
     
  10. Nachimir

    Nachimir Crony of Stilgar

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    I think most brands of christianity would elide that by claiming that he only got the powers at his baptism, where it's recounted that the holy spirit descended on him in the form of a dove. As far as I know, there are no cannonical accounts of him preforming any miracles before his baptism.

    Than again...
    ... the bi-polar god of the old testament would probably be well pleased with a son who killed those who annoyed him.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2004
  11. QUALTHWAR

    QUALTHWAR Baitshop opening soon.

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    It's disturbing how these books were left out of the bible. It's as if the a bunch of books were presented to make up the bible, but some were chosen to scultor the bible in such a way. It's the manipulation that is disturbing.
     
  12. ViSion

    ViSion New Member

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    At first I had no intention of replying to this post, but after reading so many off the cuff and partial known truths; I find myself having to say something. If you are looking for the bible to be substantiated on the premise of creation, you will not be able to do so. By trying to disprove there is no GOD, by disproving creation would be futile. GOD, for the benefit of those who have not completely read the bible, GOD establishes his authority by his promises and his ability to tell you of future events.

    The bible, contrary to popular belief, is not one book. It is a compilation of 66 writings penned by over 35 writers. The Old Testament was written by Prophets. The New Testament mostly Apostles and written over a 1500 year period; Oddly enough these 66 writings consistently agree on one thing, Jesus Christ. You can't get five people in an hour to agree on how to make chicken soup.

    Thirty percent of the Bible is prophecy, so if you want to disprove there is no GOD your task is relatively simple. Disprove biblical prophecy, the claim by which GOD claims he is GOD. Before you think this will be an easy task, consider this; the works of Flavius Josephus are responsible for the most archaeological finds, with the exception of one other work, which happens to be the Bible.

    Let me also address the ability of the existence of aliens to shake religious rather biblical faith, not only does the bible affirm other life (species) but also other worlds.

    Qualthwar you had some really interesting thoughts and questions. I look foreward to addressing some of them from a reasonable starting point.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2004
  13. Zarkazm

    Zarkazm <img src="http://forums.beyondunreal.com/images/sm

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    If only you had read a grammar book instead of the bible.
     
  14. ViSion

    ViSion New Member

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    Thank you for your critique of my post though after reading most of the posts here. It was not readily apparent that proper grammar was a prerequisite for posting a reply. I will endeavor to do better in the future. Though I am confused as to how your reply addressed any aspect of my post.
     
  15. Frostblood

    Frostblood Strangely compelling...

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    Also, many of the books of the Bible have more than one contributor. Isaiah is a compilation of the writings of at least 2 different people, probably 3. The early chapters of Genesis are a composite of two slightly different traditions ( this is especially clear when you read the Flood story ), etc...

    The Prophetic books were :) The other books were written by various people, some of whom might have been called prophets, but not in the case e.g of Ecclesiates. Contrary to popular belief, the main role of a Hebrew prophet was not to foretell the future but to act as the mouthpiece of God in the present - usually, condemning people for their sins. Sometimes they said that God would punish people if they didn't repent, which is a form of prediction, but they didn't generally go in for Nostradamus style stuff. The "prophecy" bit of Daniel, for example, is a satire on the politcal situation of the time. The prophets were activists, calling for reform in their society and a higher standard of morality, binding the people together as a nation, etc...

    The NT was written between about 60 and 100 AD. The oldest books of the OT were probably written down about 800 BC, but based on much older storys. The later books of the OT were written up to about 150 BC, although some of the Apocrypha were probably even later.

    The NT agrees on the existence of Christ, but many people think that the various authors were arguing against each other trying to prove various theological points. The fact that the Gospels seem to agree so closely is largely due to the fact that Luke and Matthew were based on Mark, while John, which wasn't, contradicts the other 3, for example on the date of the Last Supper and the appearance in the Temple.

    The OT does contain passages which seem to be fulfilled in the NT - but, this doesn't prove they were divinely inspired, because the authors of the NT could have written their accounts in order to fulfill certain OT passages and appeal to Jews. The OT authors would probably have considered Christ a heretic if they met him ( like the Jews who did meet him ) - for one thing, most of them didn't believe in the afterlife ( well...they believed in something called Sheol, which was a kind of afterlife, but nothing much happened there, it wasn't heaven or hell. ) The only clear references to life after death in the OT are in the later books. There were still conservative Jews around in Jesus' time who didn't believe in the afterlife, but they "died out" pretty soon after.

    As I've said, "prophecy" in the OT sense doesn't usually mean predictions. The fact that the Bible is largely accurate on historical and geographical facts proves nothing except that it was written in the time and place everyone agrees it was ( although there are actually some geographic mistakes in the NT ) by people who had some general knowlege.

    The problem with disproving predictions is that you can't do it - if I predict the Eiffel tower will get destroyed, that can never be disproved because "It could get destroyed tommorow!" - even though I just made that up and it's nonsense ( OK, it probably will get destroyed eventually... ) It gets even worse if I write my prediction in symbolism so it could mean pretty much anything that my readers want it to mean. The only predictions that can be proved or disproved are absoloutely specific ones.
     
  16. QUALTHWAR

    QUALTHWAR Baitshop opening soon.

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    The point I was trying to make is that religion has been sculpted and manipulated. Now, if there really was some all-powerful god, surely we wouldn’t need to manipulate “his word.”

    But it’s not “his word,” it’s the word of man. That’s the trouble as I see it. people read the bible and see stuff like “and god said” and they believe that god really said this or that. god didn’t say anything, man just wrote something down in one of the books of the bible.

    Certain books were omitted because the bible had to be sculpted to seem authoritative. You can’t have jesus as a boy killing some kid because he bumped into his shoulder. We need to get rid of that. Other books were left out because they were written too late. Too late? So god does his thing and inspires man to write the bible, but somebody drops the ball and doesn’t get a book finished in time, so we’ll just forget what god said about this and that. Give me a break.

    Predictions don’t mean squat if they aren’t specific, or if it’s inevitable that things will turn out that way. According to god, the world was destroyed by water (bunk) and the next time it will be destroyed by fire. I could make the same prediction. Is it the whole planet that will be destroyed, or just mankind, or mankind and all the creatures, what? There’s a very good chance that a rock from outer space will slam into our planet one day and wipe out most everything. It’s also a good bet that the sun will swell into a red giant in a few billion years and burn away the oceans and the atmosphere and burn our planet alive.

    It reminds me of these people who think Nostradamus was making predictions about our time that came true. You write down some vague passage that could be applied to all sorts of things and some people will do everything they can to rape the words so they make sense to them.

    I want to make this point: Man was inspired by god to write the books of the bible, but any literary work takes some sort of inspiration. But it wasn’t god, it was a “belief in god” that was the impetus for the bible. If a god wanted mankind to write a bible, he’s not going to make it so vague that we get Catholics, Jews, Baptists, Methodists, and all these other religions, and Baptists wouldn’t be arguing with “each other” over what god meant here in this passage, etc. We wouldn’t have books left out of the bible because they went against the grain. We wouldn’t have books left out because they weren’t finished in time.

    The bible is nothing more than a compilation of ideas thrown together by humans. It’s sad that people believe god actually said this or that when they read a bible verse.

    Years ago, as a Christian, my bible teacher told me that god doesn’t show his face anymore to speak (like he supposedly did) because the world is too corrupt. Being naive, I believed this. But as my wisdom grew, I realized that it’s probably just the opposite of that. people were more barbaric 2000 years ago. There was no highly-structured and refined legal system like we see today. People were burned at the stake, beheaded; later people were killed because they were accused of witchcraft. Roman armies swept across the land and “conquered” people. We see some of this going on today, but things are more in check. Sure, you can say that there are more murders per year today than there was 2000 years ago, but there are far more people living on the earth. It’s the percentage that counts.

    What was it, Sodom and Gomorra? God supposedly destroyed those cities because people were so evil. How do we know god did this? I guess he must have told us so, because that’s what the bible says. Sounds like we had some god communication happening way back when, when the world was really evil, but now we don’t because we’re supposedly more evil?
     
  17. ViSion

    ViSion New Member

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    Dictation even today is still very popular as a way of conveying thoughts, ideas, plans, stories, etc... to be transfered into a formal form at a latter point in time. Just because someone does not actually write something down by their own hand does not translate into a fact that they are not responsible for its content. I would question wheather or not the content is consistant as opposed to the style.

    The reference I made of the 1500 year period was to encompass the whole compilation it was not meant to be limted to the New Testament. Moses lived about 1400 B.C. when as I am sure you know the Ten Comandments were said to be written in stone. While shortly there after cerimonial law, civil law, health laws, and natural laws were committed to writtings and were placed with the ArK of the Covenant.

    I am sure these many people are ardent bible supporters. Luke was not one of the original disciples but a physician carrying out his own investigation into Christ. By the way this is just a thought if Matthew and Luke were based on Mark. Why is it that both Matthew and Luke exceed Mark in content? Just something to think about.

    If you had discerned the prophecy concerning the rebuilding of the temple you could not have made that accusation. You would be able to see Christ came exactly when the Old Testament said he would and from where. There is no way his disciples could pen him in. Either he existed at the appointed time or he did not. As far as the "state of the dead" the bible is consistant the dead know not anything nor do they have anymore a reward. Dead people are dead, Jesus put it in terms of sleep the only reason you know you were a sleep is because you woke up. To say that the disciples were writing to pacify the Jews is one big stretch. The Jews of that time were looking for savior to break the immeadiate hold of Roman athourity and take command of the earth. The Jews of the time were looking for a temporal solution, when Jesus could only offer a spiritual everlasting solution.

    Your statement was thoughtful and very well put together and true. That is contingent upon whether or not by this statement "As I've said, "prophecy" in the OT sense doesn't usually mean predictions." you meant "prophet" not "prophecy"; in which case that statement as it stands would be erroroneaous. Now here is where it loses its weight when we apply it to the bible. The Bible is very good at explaining what the symbolism means and its reference, if you just look for it, and in other cases it is just blatantly plain. If you do not study for a test. Then in turn fail the test, you can holler, rant, and rave all you want to, but the fact of the matter is, you should have studied. Symbolism in and of itself is not a dead art, this world is steep in symbolism, look at money, art, architecture, and even sports teams. If I ask you what nation I am reffering to when I say it is represented by an eagle or another by a bear. You would have no problem telling me what nations I am alluding to. Granted to a great extent the old testament prophesies were warnings against Israel; typically the song, and dance goes like this. GOD, "If you will only listen to me and keep my commandments all will be well for you." Israel, "sure no problem" (Israel sins gravely and repeatedly). GOD, sends them someone to remind them to repent. Israel does not want to listen so they kill the messenger. GOD finally allows them to witness the fruit of their sin. They then repent, GOD in his infinite mercy forgives them. Many disasters did happen to Irael because of their disobediance and they were recorded. You can deny them all you want but that does not change their record. These were only part of the total prophesies though.

    You call predicting the next four world powers in 600 B.C. (Qualthwar)vague and obscure (FrostBlood)political satire.

    Edward Gibbon was the author of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. Notice this incredible statement from a secular historian. He says, the images of gold, silver, or brass that might serve to represent the nations and their kings were sucessively broken by the iron monarchy of Rome. Where do you suppose the historian Gibbin got this imagery from? Where did Gibbon get the idea from that gold, silver, brass and iron would represent the nations of antiquity the answer is of course, from the bible. Now Rome ruled from 168 BC to 476 AD. Is this all "the political satire of the day" had to say about these empires? No, there is the issue of feet of iron and clay, and the ten divisions. Iron and clay do not naturally chemically mix. By the way who conquered Rome nobody but it was divided from within western Rome into ten divisions. Now GOD says they will not cleave to one another. Well let us see if that is indeed true. It has not been for the lack of trying that Europe is not united. How many have attempted to bring about this result? Charlemagne, Charles the V of Spain, Louis the XIV of France, Napolean, Lenon, Adolf Hitler came the closest but failed. Go to any secular history book you will find there was only four world ruling Empires since this declaration Babylon, Mede-Persia, Greece, and Rome.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2005
  18. ViSion

    ViSion New Member

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    Qualthwar as I stated in my first post you raise some valid points and have some reasonable questions. Unfortunately your arguments are deminished immensely, because you infuse them with conjecture, self reasoning, circular thinking and partial facts.

    You want to know why there are so many as you say interpretations of the bible. There is a real simple explanation, people do not read and study the bible, typically they are familiar with some of the more popular stories and their denominational teachings and that would pretty much some up the extent of their biblical knowledge. Most people are indoctrinated into religious dogma not biblical teaching. Very few churches follow biblical teaching. They follow a montage of religious tradition and man made doctrine and call it truth. Then people who reflect on these practices viewing them correctly as inconsistent and wrong. Voice their discontent, but do they in turn attack the erroneous systems of practice? No, they find it easier to attack the very object that condemns these very same practices. There are plenty of pseudo biblical experts but very few have any idea concerning the true meaning, teachings, and guiding principles of the bible. The Pharisees Essences and the Saducees were blinded also, though they were experts in the law. So this is no new thing for that matter countless Kings of Israel lead the people astray by following man made principles. You then do not scoff and blame them you blame GOD who warned them not to be involved in these practices in the first place.

    I could say to you where were you when GOD was laying the foundation of the earth oh I know according to the theory of evolution you were swimming around waiting to evolve into an ape then waiting a few more million years to turn into modern man. Does this phenomenon happen in a world wide scope, no. It occurs in an area in which the Bible tells of a flood account the first traces of civilization are urbanized and developed not nomadic as you would expect in evolution. Put any slant you want on it, but the geological, archaeological, and historic evidence supports the Bible concerning the flood account region, being the cradle of civilization or the reemergence of civilization. By the way has the missing link been found that I am not aware of. Just because you espouse certain scientific evidence in support of a theory. In no way validates that theory especially when there is scientific evidence which consistently refutes the theory of evolution. I am still a little confused here it seems a nineteenth century man comes up with a colorful ape story and you sop it up like last nights gravy and account that as wisdom. You forego an everlasting love in lieu of an ape story. I can honestly say it takes more faith to believe in an ape story than it does to believe in a omnipotent GOD.

    Qualthwar you claim religion has been sculpted well the same could be said more so for your argument. You have been touting through out this thread how the bible is nothing more than mans imagination then you balk about how so many books were left out as though the canonization was an arbitrary process, which it was not. Whether you concur with the selection or not this does not stop you as an individual to seek out truth on your own. The fact that certain books have been in dispute is no big dark secret. I find it curious, in lieu of your position of religious writings of the time the only one you seem to want to lend credence to is one where Jesus kills a boy. So is your reasoning as follows biblical witting are some ones imagination unless they support your view? Oh and if something airs on TV it must certainly be true.

    You call predicting the next four world powers in 600 B.C. (Q)vague and obscure (FB)political satire.
    Edward Gibbin was the author of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. Notice this incredible statement from a secular historian. He says, the images of gold silver or brass that might serve to represent the nations and their kings were sucessively broken by the iron monarchy of Rome. Where do you suppose the historian Gibbin got this imagery from? Where did gibbons get the idea from that gold silver and brass would represent the nations of antiquity the answer is of course from the bible. Now Rome ruled from 168 BC to 476 AD. Is this all this "political satire" had to say about these empires? No, there is the issue of feet of iron and clay and the ten divisions, iron and clay do not naturally chemically mix. By the way who conquered Rome nobody but it was divided from within western Rome into ten divisions. Now GOD says they will not cleave to one another. Well let us see if that is indeed true. It has not been for the lack of trying that Europe is not united. How many have attempted to bring about this result? Charlemaine, Charles the V of Spain, Louis the XIV of France, Napolean, Lenon, Adolf Hitler came the closest but failed. Go to any secular history book you will find there was only four world ruling Empires since this declaration Babylon, Mede-Persia, Greece, and Rome.
     
  19. Frostblood

    Frostblood Strangely compelling...

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    Agreed. You'd have to read the OT in detail to find that out. But it's commonly accepted that many of the books were not simply written all in one go and then left alone.

    The "5 Books of Moses" were not written by Moses ( or, at the least, not only by him. ) It's all very complex but the early chapters of Genesis, for example, are a compilation of two different versions of the same storys ( which is why you have two creation storys...two versions of the flood story...etc. )

    The people who came up with this theory were Christians. Rudolf Bultmann, one of the major contributors, was one of the most important modern theologians. Matthew and Luke were based on Mark and also had their own sources, but they wrote around the Mark framework. Mark probably knew of a word-of-mouth tradition of Jesus' sayings and actions, which he wrote down and put into order.

    The OT only mentions any form of life after death - which you'd surely expect to be something you let people know about - a few times in the latest books. The idea of the Resurrection was later adopted by the Jews from Iranian religion, but there are some verses in the NT that imply that the soul goes straight to heaven or hell, immediatley after death - the story of Lazarus and the rich man, or Jesus' "This day you will be with me in paradise", for example.

    The Jews expected a Messiah who was a mighty king who would conquor the world by force. Jesus upset that idea. But many Jews did accept him as their savior even so. Making it clear that he fulfilled the prophecys would have helped to draw in such Jews.

    If you're referring to Daniel, it wasn't written in 600 B.C, it was written after 200 B.C, but attributed to an earlier author. People did that sort of thing all the time. There are books, from that period or later, attributed to Enoch, Abraham, Moses, etc. - none of them made it into the Bible because they were a bit wacko. Although the author of the Epistle to Jude quotes from "Enoch".

    See here.

    Well, China and India both had large civilized empires at the time all this was going on. No-one has ever ruled the world. See above.
     
  20. Chrysaor

    Chrysaor Lord of the Pants

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    Oh, god, this is still going? Christ.
     

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