1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Two Factor Authentication is now available on BeyondUnreal Forums. To configure it, visit your Profile and look for the "Two Step Verification" option on the left side. We can send codes via email (may be slower) or you can set up any TOTP Authenticator app on your phone (Authy, Google Authenticator, etc) to deliver codes. It is highly recommended that you configure this to keep your account safe.

Psychomorph's Suggestion for INFILTRATION

Discussion in 'New Version Suggestions' started by Psychomorph, Apr 11, 2005.

  1. BTH

    BTH Dickcheese Faggot

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2005
    Messages:
    197
    Likes Received:
    0
    well i agree with Buddz there, just for pistols though
     
  2. Crowze

    Crowze Bird Brain

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2002
    Messages:
    3,556
    Likes Received:
    1
    How would you fire while aiming?
     
  3. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2003
    Messages:
    2,269
    Likes Received:
    2
    Wtf? Somebody posts in this thread?

    Crowze, I think he means holding fire-key to aim and fire on release.
    The idea isn't bad, but I personally never would like something like this in a 1st person game.
    I would like to fire my weapon by a key tap, not release. And I would like to fire my weapon from all (fireable) positions, including unaimed, like shouldered and hipped. That's just real.
     
  4. Buddz

    Buddz New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2004
    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    0
    Just tapping the primary attack key would send your lead flying anyway, only holding it would aim the weapon.
    But perhaps you are right. The splitsecond difference between pressing and releasing the primary attack key could make the difference between life and death. And I don't want to be blamed if some lamers use that as an excuse for showing bad skills in play.
     
  5. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2003
    Messages:
    2,269
    Likes Received:
    2
    You are from Hostile Intent, aren't you? :D

    You mean holding the key will aim, what about burst (fullauto)?
    I think having the gun shouldered and beeing able to fire all time and tapping the aim key to aim is the most clear, simple and 'accurate' (in terms of realism) way.
     
  6. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2003
    Messages:
    2,269
    Likes Received:
    2
    Ok let’s call it the final lowready suggestion, because I think this is pretty perfect.


    Aim
    Aiming the weapons works the usual way, tap "aim key" to aim and tap it again to bring the weapon into the unaimed high-ready position.


    They are 2 general weapon categories, the Ironsight/Scope Category and the Reflexsight/Pistol Category.

    Ironsight/Scope Category
    The ironsight and scope are only aimed when you really have a target to fire at, you never move around with the weapon aimed. Because of this holding the "aim key" while aiming allows you to control/align the ironsight and control the scope.

    Only when you hold the weapon at the high-ready position you can hold the "aim key" to lower the weapon (more than the standart freeaim-zone allows) and finally bring it to the low-ready position.

    Reflexsight/Pistol Category
    The difference is, that the aim in case of reflexsights and pistols, is a position that you adjust with the "aim key", because it is aimed binocular you treat it equal to the high-ready position and can move around with the weapon aimed.

    To have the same flexebility with aimed reflexsights and pistols like with weapons at the high-ready you can lower the weapons and bring it to the low-ready by holding the "aim-key" too. And when you take the weapon up from low-ready, you aim the weapon automatical (if aim was the last adjusted position).


    Low-Ready and Weapon Lowering
    Holding the "aim-key" at high-ready (or a reflexsight/pistol at high-ready and when aimed) doesn’t visually change the weapon position, you still point it forward and can fire, but it changes the freeaim-zone. The freeaim-zone is larger to the top and completely open to the bottom (what actually allows to lower the weapon completely).

    You have to manually lower the weapon by the mouse movement.
    Is the weapon still visible on the screen when you release the "aim key" than it returns to the normal high-ready position (or aimed position if adjusted in case of reflexsights and pistols).
    Is the weapon allready to far at the bottom and is not visible on the screen, it stays at the low-ready when the "aim key" is released, only a "fire key", or "aim key" tap brings it back, or when you hold the "aim key" again and manually move the weapon up.

    Because the freeaim-zone is larger to the top it allows you to lift the weapons barrel a bit to maneuver it over obstacles, because sometimes you don’t want/need to lower it completely, but simply lift it up a bit.
    The freeaim-zone is also a bit expanded to the sides.

    As long you hold the "aim key", even if the weapon is not visible on the screen you can fire the weapon with the "fire key".
    Maybe, when the weapon is at low-ready and you release the "aim key", the selector will be adjusted on safe. Than tapping the “fire key”, or “aim key” will just bring the weapon up again.
    As long the gun is low and on safe you still can imaginary change the fireing mode that will be selected when you take the weapon up again.
    When the weapon is at low-ready and you hold the "aim key" again you gain control over the weapon again where you have to manually move it up and it will be unsafed.


    ---------

    I think this system could work well, especially because the aim works the usual way. Also it comes pretty close to the "lollypop" low-ready system that Beppo and Jayhova were talking about in the old thread.
    Because such a lollypop system doesn’t simply work (you still need to be able to look down) the normal freeaim-zone has to remain, but holding the "aim key" still allows you to manually lower the weapon and even in a very flexible and realistic way and operate reflex sights like in reality.
    Holding the "aim key" when aiming sights that require control/alignment (ironsights, scopes) would still remain.
     
  7. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2003
    Messages:
    2,269
    Likes Received:
    2
    Suggestion time again.

    I saw a documentary some days ago, they showed german army infantry training. They simulated a night ambush on an enemy HQ hut in the woods (capturing documents). The second was a fast CQB indoor assault, they arested suspects.
    I observed the weapon handling and movement, nothing new at all, all what I allready suggested, but I pack it all “well sorted” in one concept.

    Somebody feels free to correct spelling errors (if he/she wants to suffer even more) and PM it to me so I can edit the stuff. But the text should stay simple and clear.


    The Observation

    Weapon positions they used (and the situations where they used them):
    Highready (& Aim)
    - They used G36's, so they mostly skipped the highready and aimed the reflex sight binocular.
    - They aimed the rifle, or had it at highready when they were standing and kneeling covering moving soldiers, or indoor during CQB.
    Lower-Highready
    - Let's call it so. The weapon is pointed about 20° lower, still at highready. They used this position often.
    - When they were proceeding toward the building not exactly expecting direct contact, beeing covered by the soldiers at the back.
    - It is sort of a resting ready position, still highready, but more comfortable for the arms.
    Lowready
    - Weapon was pointed down when they simply had no space in front, or soldiers were standing right infront of them.
    - Moving in very tight spaces.
    - When they weren’t directly expecting contact at the time.
    - When they were on retreat after they captured the documents, running/jogging back into the woods.

    Movement they performed:
    Walk
    - Sneaking up the building at the night ambush, when they were directly near the wooden hut.
    Fast Walk
    - During the fast indoor CQB room clearing.
    - Moving faster when needed, but not to fast, having the weapon at the ready.
    Run/Jog
    - When they were proceeding toward the hut, coming out of the dark woods.
    - Needed to increase speed shortly to reach a corner.
    Sprint
    They didn’t sprinted, but just because they weren’t in the situation. They would sprint if necessary.


    The Suggestion
    Now the suggestion. Look at the attached picture.

    A Highready (& Aim)
    The weapon is pointed forward, can be fired unaimed. Pressing the “aim key” will aim the weapon.

    Aimed pistols and reflex sights are aimed binocular and are operated similar like the highready position (with a similar kind of elyptic freeaim, flexebility and weapon lowering).
    Rifle iron sights and scopes have a more steady centered position with a small circular freeaim-zone.

    Arms are getting tired the fastest when you hold the weapon horizontally straight, or up for to long.

    Aiming with the frontsight
    The more centered weapon position (right eye just over the rearsight) has a reason.
    First, the right eye is allready near the rearsight, so aiming can be performed fast.
    Second, the perspective of the weapon allows to take the frontsight as a measure to place accurate shots on very close distances. The left top area near the frontsight is where the bullets will go.

    Exactly this function has a serious advantage, you can bring the unaimed weapon into the right position and aim, and you will find the target allready inside the aperture, you just need to place the pin on the target, align the sights and fire.

    During movement
    When you walk, or perform a fast walk the arm fatigue affects you in a normal way when you hold the rifle at the highready.
    When you run the arms are getting tired much faster, just because the general tireness also affects the tirness of your arm muscles. That’s why it is better to carry the rifle at the lowready when moving fast.


    B Lower-Highready
    Barrel lowered about 20° down. Without pushing any keys, simply lower the weapon with the mouse.

    The Lower-Highready position has several advantages:
    - The view is less obstructed.
    - Arms have a more comfortable position, arm fatigue increases drastically slower.

    The rested arms are the main advantage and is the exact thing that makes real soldiers using this position, because when you lower the weapon a bit, the upper arms get into a comfortable position and are leaned on the torso.
    In case of pistols only the front forearm is leaned on the torso, what is comfortable enough too.

    That is the idea behind the lower-highreaedy, namely that holding weapons up makes arms more tired than holding weapons lower. And since most of the time you have a centered mouse-look you can naturally lower the weapon by the mouse movement.

    The main key of immersiveness is also to see soldiers holding the rifles lower in the 3rd person view, that requires separated 3rd person weapon positions for aim and highready (in case of ironsights & scoped rifles), because when the rifle is aimed, the head is leaned at the buttstock and always follows the weapon movement. That is not always the case when the rifle is held at the highready.

    Function of the Lower-Highready with different looking directions
    From up to down:
    - The arm resting feature can only work when the weapon is held at the lower-highready, or lower.
    - When you look up, the freeaim-zone is more circular and the weapon always stays inside the centered freeaim-zone (the weapon just moves before the view, that still allows you to lower the weapon a bit when you are looking up).
    - When you move the view lower, it reaches the horizontal mouse-look, the previously circular freeaim-zone becomes elyptic and the view stays centered, but only the weapon keeps moving down untill it reaches the lower-highready position, where the arm resting feature starts to work.
    - When the weapon reaches the lowest bottom point of the freeaim-zone (lower-highredy) it stays at the bottom and the whole view keeps moving down, the weapon keeps the lower position in the bottom of the screen.
    From down to the top:
    - The view keeps looking down shortly and the weapon moves a bit more up, but is still at the bottom of the screen.
    - When the weapon has the new position in the bottom, the whole view continues to move up untill it reaches the mouse-look position.
    - When the view reaches the mouse-look position, the view keeps still for a short time and only the weapon moves toward the center area.
    - Once the weapon is ‘centered’ the whole view moves up, the weapon keeps this ‘centered’ position during the upward view movement.

    During movement
    When you walk, or perform a fast walk, the arms are in a comfortable position.
    When you run the arms are still getting tired faster, because the general tireness still affects you. Lowready is still the better option when moving fast for a longer period.


    C Lowready
    Barrel pointed toward the ground, buttstock still at the shoulder.
    When you have the weapon at highready, lower-highready, or binoculary aimed press and hold the “aim key” to bring the weapon into the lowready position.

    Two functional variations can be concidered:
    1) Holding the “aim key” keeps the weapon at highready, but just opens the freeaim-zone toward the bottom and you manually move the weapon with the mouse to lower it completely.
    As long you hold the “aim key” you can move the weapon back up, releasing the “aim key” when the weapon is visible on the screen will move the weapon back to highready, releasing the “aim key” while the weapon is not visible on the screen will keep the weapon at lowready.
    When the weapon is at the lowready, you tap the “aim key” or “fire key” once, to take the weapon to the highready, or you press and hold the “aim key” and manually move the weapon up (on release it keeps the highready position, aslong the weapon is visible on the screen).
    This version has the advantage, that even if you accidently hold the “aim key”, the weapon keeps its position which allows you to correct your mistake fast, or even fire if necessary.

    2) Pressing and Holding the “aim key” will automatical take the weapon to lowready completely.
    Maybe when you hold the “aim key” short, the rifle will be lowered and taken up on release automatical. That also allows you to ‘abort’ the lowering process before it is completed, for the case you accidently held the “aim key”.
    Holding the “aim key” longer will move and keep the weapon in lowready on key release.
    An “aim key” or “fire key” tap moves the weapon back to highready.

    During movement
    During every type of movement the arms are resting when the rifle is held in lowready, only extreme general tireness creates a bit arm fatigue.


    Independant Headturn Feature
    I still would like to have this feature. I think the “use key” is still the best option, because this key is open during the play, is mostly assigned to a comfortable position and even if you need to hold the “use key” to perform an action (let’s say bomb defusing) you could be able to lift your head and even turn the head without to abort whatever you are doing.

    When you hold the “use key” the mouse takes control over the head (view) movement only, the weapon automatically moves to the lower-highready position (so the buttstock isn’t in the way when you turn your head to the right).
    Releasing the “use key” fast brings your head into the previous position and gives you the weapon control back.
    Tapping the “aim key”, or “fire key” when you look to the side, lets you turn yourself fast to the view direction and points the weapon toward this direction. You can release the “use key” then.

    The independant head movement has a faster and fluid movement, so you can check your flanks fast without to loose the weapon position.
    You can even take a glance at your back, a 160° degree turn is possible to each side. Up 90° and down about 70% (because the weapon keeps the straight lower-highready position).


    Binocular Iron Sight Aim
    When aiming the rifle iron sights (and if technically possible scopes too) you can hold (or tap?) the “use key” to open the left eye. That gives you the same binocular view like with reflex sights, but the weapon handling stays the same, the aligning of the sights becomes harder everytime you move the sight, or fire (more time for stabilizating), but it gives you the ability to have a better view without to loose the aim.


    Generally rifle iron sights and scopes are the category of sights, that can be taken to lowready only from the highready position, because holding the “aim key” allows you to control/align the sights, same as you use the independant headturn feature only when the weapon is in highready, because holding the “use key” when aiming will cause you to aim the iron sight binocular.

    Using pistols and reflex sights is more special, because you can use the headturn feature and lowready even from the aimed weapon pisition.


    ------

    The lower-highready should be visible in the 3rd person too. When a soldier is holding the weapon at the lower-highready position you will see that like in the attached picture. Even in the prone position it should be noticeable.

    Byside the function this kind of weapon lowering has a realistic and natural background, because when you have the weapon pointed straight forward and want to take the weapon lower, you move the weapon and follow with your eyes, but keep the head motionless untill you reach a specific ‘down looking point’ where you start to move the head and follow your view to the gun.
    And when you move the gun up, it is natural to move the weapon first a bit, untill it reaches a higher position in your view, than you start to move the head up.

    This suggestions rather represent a natural behavior and visually adds a lot to realism and immersivness and fact is, it doesn’t change that much from both, what INF players are used to and what ‘normal’ FPS players are used to.
    You still aim by the usual “aim key” tapping, like it was done in iron sight shooters from the hour 0. Lowready is an option you always could use, using all the same “aim key”, but you wouldn’t be forced to use it all the time (you rather will appreciate the feature after a time).
    And the use of the “use key” to turn the head independantly is rather a feature you will be glad to have.


    Arm Fatigue & Tireness
    To allow you good and comfortable arm fatigue control I made an icon system, the advantage of this soldier icon is, that it can show you your tireness level, injury, movement control and postures aswell, even weapon positions! And all that together at the same time.
    The soldier in the icon has a grey-green color, tired body parts show up in a yellow glowing color. The color increases the glow with increasing tireness level, that gives you a perfect overlook.

    Arm Fatigue
    Only the arms are affected, not your general fitness. The color increases, so does the tireness level.

    Tireness
    General tireness starts by the legs, because it is mostly movement that causes the problem.
    But the tireness expands over the whole body (torso bocomes yellow), that causes harder breathing.
    At the end the tireness affects also the arms, but then you are really tired.

    Injury
    The orange color that covers the lower parts of the legs and the feet displays injured legs and leg-joints after a fall.

    Orange color that covers the whole leg, arm, torso and the head displays a minor injury level when objects hit you, when you hit a wall, or object pushed by an explosion, when you suffer a touching shot, or impacts that are absorbed by the kevlar vest.

    Red color displays direct hits and fatal injuries. It also pulsates to make the fatality more clear.

    The reason why the injury colors overlap the tireness color is, because injury drains power anyway. A hit to the arm causes a larger problem than a tired arm.
    When the injury is unimportant and doesn’t really affect you, the orange color disappears after a short time, showing you the tireness level again.


    Movement
    Movement has the four stages:
    - Walk
    - Fast-Walk/Slow-Jog
    - Run/Jog
    - Sprint
    The reason why the Slow-Jog and the Jog are mentioned is because during the weapon is aimed, is at the highready, or lower-highready the movement is more controlled for weapon accuracy sake (Fast-Walk and Run), but when the weapon is held at lowready they is no reason to control the movement and you either jog slowly (oppositely to the fast-walk), or jog normally (oppositely to the run).
    When you walk normally they is no difference in the movement type and the sprint has the weapon low anyway.

    When you just brought the weapon to lowready you keep the controlled movement for a short time, but only after few seconds the body adapts to the new ‘freedom’ and the movement transforms into jogging.
    When you Walk-Fast, the Slow-Jog appears after about 3 seconds, when you run, the jog appears in 2 seconds.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jan 27, 2006
  8. Beppo

    Beppo Infiltration Lead-Programmer

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 1999
    Messages:
    2,285
    Likes Received:
    4
    @Psychomorph ... You do not react to a private message so I need to contact you this way cause I guess that you check this place more frequently ;)
    Please contact me using beppo@sentrystudios.net thanks!
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2006
  9. geogob

    geogob Koohii o nomimasu ka?

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2000
    Messages:
    4,148
    Likes Received:
    0
    Psycho finally got some official attention :p
     
  10. Vega-don

    Vega-don arreté pour detention de tomate prohibée

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2003
    Messages:
    1,904
    Likes Received:
    0
    finaly..

    ;)

    OMG THAT MEANS MEANS MEANS !!!!!!
     
  11. zeep

    zeep :(

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2001
    Messages:
    1,738
    Likes Received:
    0
    Psych i love that last picture. If a game had an ad like that to advertise the simulated 'realism', i'd be drooling for it's release.
     
  12. gal-z

    gal-z New Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2003
    Messages:
    420
    Likes Received:
    0
    Not much new in that long post lol. But I still see a problem with the controls, at least with switching between highready and lower-highready. Having mouse movement change the way the mouse movement works just doesn't feel right.
     
  13. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2003
    Messages:
    2,269
    Likes Received:
    2
    @Zeep:
    Yup, and I would love to see INF doing it the first.


    @gal-z:
    Yes, it isn't really new, just includes a slight change.

    What you mean with "switching between highready and lower-highready"? The two positions aren't really two separate positions, it is rather a flexible freeaim, actually something INF allready has, I just think, that the lower-highready, as something clearly visible in the 3rd person, would give a realistic look to the 3rd person and would have two usable functions which would cause the player to use that feature, the first would be a more unobstructed view in the bottom and second, a slower arm fatigue.

    The reason why these aren't two positions, that you toggle with a key is, because nobody would really use it, but when it is a simple mouse (weapon) movement (that is only done when you look exactly "horizontally" forward in real life), than people would have a better understanding for this, exactly that would rather cause them to use that feature more often.

    And if you follow my latest posts, the lowready is nothing really different, I still suggest that you move the mouse (weapon) down untill it is not on the screen, but because that normally isn't possible, you need to do something, in that case hold the "aim key".

    All weapon positions, except aim would be a freeaim weapon movement only, even if you take it to lowready, with the only requirement to hold a key to open the freeim toward the botom for lowready.

    Aim is the only thing where you switch to by a mouse key tap.
     
  14. gal-z

    gal-z New Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2003
    Messages:
    420
    Likes Received:
    0
    You have a problem seperating between "moving to lower highready" and "aiming down" still... How will the game be able to tell the difference? With your system, it won't, and something must be done to fix it.
    Just imagine yourself standing on a roof or something and someone walks in the street 10m below you. You try to aim down then the game just puts the weapon lower on your screen rather than letting you actually look AND aim down.
     
  15. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2003
    Messages:
    2,269
    Likes Received:
    2
    I explained it. The freeaim to the bottom is not that huge, but still enough to lower the gun in the 1st person a bit and noticeable enough in the 3rd person.
    See current Infiltration, you can do the exact same and you CAN look/aim down. I even speak about a more limitted freeaim area toward the bottom, than in the current INF, the weapon perspective (closer to the view) is what will give you the impression like the gun moves more down, still using an actually smaller freeaim zone.
    If you have a weapon distance that far away from the view like the current INF, than you would need a far more larger freeaim zone to reach the exact same effect, or the gun movement to the bottom would look to small.

    What I mean is, that when a rifle is pointed forward, and than pointed slightly lower, the head doesn't really move, so you can't really tell if the shooter is still looking forward, or if he looks down the rifle. This is up to you, the player to use your "own" eyes to define your looking direction.
    But when you move the gun even lower, than you need to follow with your head (screen view) completely, that's the point, where "freeaim" ends and "view turn" starts.
    When you lower the view, the weapon stays at the slightly lower "lower-highready" positions in your 1st person view, that actually gives you a larger field of view when you observe the location from above, and you still have the rifle noticeably poitned forward, so you can always move the rifle to point it on a target.

    The lowready is where the freeaim is completely open to the bottom, there you would have problems to lower your view, that's why you have to hold the "aim key" to lower the rifle.
     
  16. sir_edmond

    sir_edmond In my own world

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2003
    Messages:
    606
    Likes Received:
    0
    How is this idea:

    Lowready
    tap aim for Highready
    hold aim for Aim Binocular w/minor steady
    hold aim & use for Aim monocular w/ steady

    If you fire in lowready, you automaticly swich to highready,
    however you will not be able to control you gun while you fire
    And suffer from a slightly greater recoil.

    Holding your weapon for a longtime in highready will carry penalties, like the arm fatigue.

    Edit: That soildier Icon would rock if we had that
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 5, 2006
  17. gal-z

    gal-z New Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2003
    Messages:
    420
    Likes Received:
    0
    Nice way to put it siredmond, although getting used to holding the aim button just to look through the sights without stabilizing it may be a bit hard, and when you scan through your acog it will be a real bother. May need to solve that by making a short "hold aim" keep it aimed even after you let go of the aim key, and a tap will take you back to highready. That still takes getting used to but lets you stay aimed longer without having to actually hold the key. Any key that requires holding for TOO long is annoying. If you want arm fatigue implement arm fatigue, but don't implement finger fatigue ;p
     

Share This Page