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Psychomorph's Suggestion for INFILTRATION

Discussion in 'New Version Suggestions' started by Psychomorph, Apr 11, 2005.

  1. gal-z

    gal-z New Member

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    I still don't like the binocular aiming for non-reflex and don't see much point for it.
    When there are 2 targets, you see where both are in highready, then go monocular aiming, shoot once, and then aim at the other right away. If you don't see it, you should remember where it was - you're not gonna start looking for it. If you do need to look for it again, then you WILL take your weapon back to highready.
    Additionally for what I already said, it's much easier on the controls if you remove the binocular aiming.

    As for people who shoot any sight with 2 eyes open, well, most people aren't trained that way, and if we decide it's the way inf soldiers are trained, monocular aim should be taken out altogether and all weapons should be used like weapons with reflex sights. I don't like this idea, but it is another option if it's decided that aiming with 2 eyes open is what inf soldiers are trained for and decided to be the better way to aim all the time.
     
  2. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    I think you misunderstand meh a littl bit.

    I don't speak about beeing trained to shoot binocular. I suggest the binocular aim having the same freeaim and mouse sensitivity as the shouldered, while the monocular aim have a smaller freeaimzone and probably a different mouse speed (for aiming comfort).

    I rather suggest the binocular aim as a kind of highready position with the head/eye being closer to the sights, where you can lower the sight the way you do in INF now, where you just can raise the sight by mousemovement, point the sight in a traget and at the same time close the left eye to aim accurate monocular.

    I explained with some pics that I´ve posted in the 'BF2 sight thread' in post #40. I upload them here (see attachments).
    Look at the pics 2 and 3, the weapon is used like in highready, but the sight is faster to use. This won't make highready useless, since both positions (highready and binocular aim) behave different. Many actions like jumping, falling and more will bring you to highready.

    Shooting with binocular aimed sights is of course a possibility that can give you advantages on very close distances, but misalignment when moving the weapon around will be huge in comparison to the rather controled monocular aim.
    Byside this, the binocular aim will naturally balance out all sights and also add a bit balance toward the reflex sights (note that I speak about natural, not 'created' gamish balance).


    I´ve made a bit picture research.
    Notice that all of them aim the weapon, but have the eyes open and the sight lowered to observe the location and be able to bring the sights up as fast as possible:
    1
    2
    3 (not perfect, but the guy at the right is somewhat doing sorta like it)
    4 (guy at the left [guy at the right is more highready])
    5
    6
    7
    8
    9
    10
    11

    funny thing is, that you sometimes even can't say if they are aiming binocular, or looking over the sight, cuz it is a tinny bit of movement.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Aug 10, 2005
  3. gal-z

    gal-z New Member

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    Except a few cases where they're just in highready, they're all aiming with 2 eyes open imo.
    1 aiming
    2 aiming
    3 posing for a picture (looking at the camera lol)
    4 1 "aiming" (probably only looking through the bridge since it's not very possible to fully aim while walking) and 1 highready
    5 highready (both)
    6 aiming in a very wierd position (gonna jam after that shot...)
    7 highready (guy on right has his head lowered but only because he's either lazy or wants to be as least exposed as possible - unrelated to firing)
    8 is kinda highready but consider that he's really just posing for the pic
    9 aiming
    10 is either aiming, posing for the pic, or both
    11 is just wierd...

    Binocular aiming imo is practically really hard to do. Adding a binocular "aiming" position just to look for targets is making it really hard on controls and completely unnecessary for realism. If you know where your other target is, you won't open your other eye. If you lost your other target, you're gonna go back to highready to look for it 99% of the cases where you couldn't find it while keeping on aiming.
     
  4. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    Of course they is some posing on those pics and those who aim binocular, they is no difference to what I mean, since lowering the sight means a slight barrel down position.

    Since you are an active military man I don't want to argue with you, but I would like to know the opinion of some other active (or ex active) people, such as 5eleven, meplat (and others I don't know about). Exactly those people never respond on suggestions.


    I think opening the left eye is a reasonable option. I mean even if the binocular aim is not implemented similar to how I suggested it, I would like to be able to hold a key when aiming to temporary open the left eye. I don't see why you can't make it in RL and why not in the game.


    What to do to make aiming more effective than? I know that when I aim, the blocky view is not a problem. I just look at the point I want to aim at and the weapon kind of automatical points at it. It works almost like autotracking, only to align and keep the sight stable is what needs my 'work'.

    IDEA:
    An idea just pops into my head. When you are in highready you move the gun with the mouse movement as known. But when you hold the aim key while in highready, the weapon will be kept at it's previous position and you have no freeaim control about that.

    What will happen if you hold the aim key is, that a white, transparent dot appears in the middle and you have a slight and small freeaim with this dot. You point this dot on a target and when you release the aim key, the sight will be placed fast on this traget (on the place where the dot is).
    Since you release the aim key and the sight is aimed, you can hold the aim key again to control the weapon, or push the aim key to switch back to highready.

    Since the aim will be done via 'hold aim key and place the dot system' pushing the aim key when in highready can let you lower the weapon to lowready.


    Low/Highready:
    - Push aim key to toggle between lowready and highready.

    Aim:
    - Hold aim key to track the target and release it to place the sights.
    - Once sight placed (aimed) hold aim key to control the weapon, or push aim key to switch to highready.

    Firekey:
    - Fires the weapon when in highready.
    - Takes the weapon to highready when in lowready.
    - When tracking the target with a dot (aim key held) the firekey will keep the weapon in highready and fast place it into the dots direction (not exactly the dot) and fires.

    Summon:
    1. The weapon is manually controlled via mouse when in highready and allows to use lowready. When aim key is held (from high, or low position) the searchmode is enabled, like in real life you search for a target without to move the weapon.
    2. Fireing during the search mode the gun will be moved toward the target (unaccurate) and fired. Releasing aim key during search mode will place the sight on the target (accurate).
    3. When moving the screen and the dot (inside a small freeaim zone), the weapon is not controlled, but it always stays in view pointing very slightly down (so when you move the view to the right, the weapon moves to the left untill it is just particulary visible, but start to follow when you move the view even more).


    As said to be able to open the left eye when aiming is something I would like to do in INF since it is possible in real life. By holding the use key when aiming the binocular view could be used.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2005
  5. gal-z

    gal-z New Member

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    The problem is there are so many things you can do IRL but you won't do, that you just can't put them all in the game. Unless there's a complete seperate key to open the left eye, it will be hard control-wise to use this option and I don't find it too useful if you can't really aim that way.
    As for the dot idea, I just don't think it'll feel real. Sounds too wierd, and additionally it has control problems.
    The way I see the controls is:
    When highready:
    -Altfire brings to highready, holding altfire will make it move on to aimed.
    -Firing is pointless but if you do fire it'll fire into the ground.
    When highready:
    -When you press altfire 2 things can happen:
    1. You let go fast. Weapon goes to lowready.
    2. You keep holding it. Weapon goes to aim and breath is held as long as the key is held. There would be a small animatino problem here as on one hand you will want to start the animation as soon as the altfire is pressed but on the other hand if the player lets go of the altfire early you'll have to play a different animation. Making you hold the key even for a fraction of a sec before the aiming animation is played is NOT a solution, because when you want to aim from highready you want to do it as fast as possible. I can't think of a solution that won't hurt the animatino though, but making you wait a tiny bit b4 starting the animation and speeding up the animation can work for gameplay though it's not 100% realistic graphically.
    When aimed:
    -When altfire is pressed 2 things can happen:
    -You hold it. Breath is held and sights get fully aligned, if they weren't already.
    -You let go fast enough. You go back to highready.

    With this control system you should be able to smoothly go from every position to another:
    lowready->aimed - hold altfire (or you could also tap altfire then press it again and hold it, will have same effect).
    aimed->lowready - tap altfire twice. Hopefully will be fixed so that lag doesn't make it impossible to tap it as fast as you'd like to.
    Small disadvantage of my controls is that if you want to aim without holding breath, you still have to hold the altfire key a little bit or it will go back to lowready (if you were highready) or stay highready (if you were lowready). I still think my controls have the smallest problems compared to anything suggested before.

    If you really insist on adding the 2nd eye opening you can take the use key and make it either a toggle or hold to do it, but I don't really like the idea. I don't think anybody will have practical use for it and it'll just be a problem to do graphics-wise, programming-wise and control-wise.
     
  6. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    Which leads us to where we started :p.
     
  7. gal-z

    gal-z New Member

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    One more thing, IRL soldiers are trained to aim where they look as much as possible for obvious reasons with the exception of not aiming at friendlies ;)
     
  8. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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  9. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    Ok look, this whole binocular aim with sight lowering I just suggested to fit it more to the sight use INF players are used to use in INF, but I´m wasn't fan of it, I rather was fan to how the bonocular aim looked optically.
    I still prefer the original version of lowready/highready(with a larger freeaim zone)/monocular aim, or binocular reflex aim(with a small freeaim zone), so no aimed sight lowering at all.
    And I think no matter to what the INF palyers are used to, this is the correct way to go. I think I have to rework the pdf again :p.

    The binocular ironsight aim is still something I insist on. Holding the use key (which is not used when aiming) should allow you to open the left eye, to be able to take a glance forward without to lose the aim.

    I always meant that aiming requires the aim key to be held (releasing it switchs back to highready), but I think it really is better for the game to adjust the aim by shortly hold the aim key, where you need to push the aim key to switch back to highready.


    Ok just to summon up.

    Iron Sight
    - Pushing the aim key will toggle between the lowready and highready.
    Lowready have no freeaim, highready have a larger elyptic freeaim zone.

    - Holding the aim key will aim the sight (from low, or high), keep holding it will start to control the weapon isntantly, releasing the aim key will keep the sight aimed but lose control.
    Aiming have a small cyclic freeaim zone around the center.
    When aim key is held the mouse sensetivity decreases to allow better aiming.
    Non controlled sights keep the standart mouse sensetivity.
    Holding the use key will open the left eye (less control).


    - When aiming push aim key to switch to highready.
    And it all starts from the beginning.


    Reflex/Red Dot Sight
    Works all the same, with the difference, that reflex/red dot sights are aimed binocular. A feature could be to be able to close the left eye when holding the use key and to have a monocular aim and view (when worth, or simple enough to implement).


    Fire Key / Aim Key
    - I think when in lowready, the fire key and aim key should have the same function to take the weapon to highready (since pressing the firekey is a reaction and in real life you react by raising the weapon).
    - Holding the fire key will take the weapon to highready and fire.
    - Holding the aim key will aim the weapon and control the sight.



    Of course the reflex sights can be used more often aimed in situations where the ironsight weapons are used from highready.
    I saw a video in the news a time ago (a real combat in iraq) where an U.S. spec ops team with M16A4(or3)'s and an aimpoint sight run toward a building and once they passed the corner (holding the rifle at lowready) they raised the rifles and aimed it instantly (binocular most probably) and run toward the door. That looked awesome.

    The BBE counter terroristic group (dutch spec ops) footage I saw (it's well known). When they had the aimpoint sight on their P90's they were running and always aiming the aimpoint sight binocular, while the others that had an ironsight MP5 had it at highready.

    I think that explains how the sights can be used. Reflex and red dot sights can be held aimed in more situations (moving and covering up a spot), while ironsight weapons would be always held at highready then (not a big disadvantage at all, since a highready held weapon can be used pretty much accurate).


    Speaking about highready, I saw many spec ops doing it and experienced it myself, that when you aim and take the weapon to highready and reaim fast, you never hold the highready weapon to low, you just lift the head a bit but keep the rearsight about 1 centimeter under the right eye, that allows to aim very fast and effective.
    That's the highready for what we should go, isn't it?
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2005
  10. gal-z

    gal-z New Member

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    The difference between highready for shooting without sights in CQB and the highready u mentioned in your last paragraph may not be the same, but the difference is so small I don't think it should be implemented. For the same reason it doesn't really matter what u do here.
    As for moving+aiming reflex sights, I think you should be allowed to keep any weapon at aimed mode while moving, but with weapon bob making it impossible to aim iron sights and scopes at most speeds (walking should be brealy possible to aim) while reflex sights are somewhat easier. The bob of scoped weapons in inf right now is a good example but obviously needs more work.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2005
  11. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    If the CQB highready not the same as I explained, how is it then?
    And yes, the difference is to small to implement.

    The one idea I had a long time ago, but never mentioned is, that after the aim, when you take the gun to highready, the position of the highready weapon could be a bit higher than usual highready (rearsight more closer to the eye, but stil below).
    That would allow faster reaiming. After near about 1 second, the weapon would slightly slide more down and the normal highready position is there.

    Sure that wont work for CQB, but it doesn't matter as long the highready has a high enough position and a dynamic feel.



    Of course you should be able to move on every speed when aiming, but in case of monocular aimed ironsights, it does not give you anything, neither binocular aim, thats why you keep the gun in highready (a matter of fact).

    A reflex sight is aimed binocular and does not require alignment (just pointing the dot), thats why it is useful to aim and move (in certain situations, and only if you want to).
    Of course you need to stop to exactly place the dot on the target. So that just makes sense, aswell it is done in real life.

    Just to clarify what I meant.



    Is they anything else to discuss/clarify? I think we both agree on everything now.
     
  12. gal-z

    gal-z New Member

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    Red dot sights also need some kind of "alignment". If you look from the side you see no dot, so when moving too fast it should bob to a point where you cannot see where you're aiming, just as you wouldn't be able to using iron sights.
    But when moving slowly, reflex sights have the obvious advantage. As a side note, at the range you can hit while moving though you don't really need a sight.
     
  13. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    I changed the pdf back to the original idea ;). It even has less pages.
     
  14. gal-z

    gal-z New Member

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    Now we need some1 to mutate this for 2.9 so we can play around with it :D
    Shouldn't be hard to at least do the simple parts of lowready-highready-aimed.
     
  15. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    I thought about that a long time ago.

    For simplicity and feasibility sake the 3rd person loweready would be the INF's hipped. The shouldered and aimed would be all the INF's aim.

    The 1st person would need optical and functional tweaks:
    Rifle
    - The lowready would be not visible on the screen. Pushing aim key or fire key would take the gun to the highready.
    - Highready would be the INF's aimed, but gun slightly moved to the right and down. Still same INF freeaim.
    - Holding aim key a bit and releasing would aim it. The sights would need to be moved more backward, aslong the clipping error is not to huge it can be ignored (it's only a test mutator). And reduce freeaim very much when aiming.
    - Holding the aim key when aiming would control the gun. Pushing aim key switch to highready.

    MG, Sniper
    Same as above, with the difference, that pushing the firekey when in lowready would keep gun low but point barrel forward. INF's hipped position, but more centered and much lower to make only the front parts visible. When it is pointed so, the firekey would fire.

    Pistol
    - Lowready is not visible on the screen.
    - Fire key and aim key will aim the pistol.
    The proximity of the pistol have to be changed back to how it was in 2.86.

    Reflex Sight
    Just a simple solution would be to add the binocular reflex sight aiming. Just make the weapon position higher than highready and add a red point to aim (the way the EO sight crosshair is made).


    I think it is about possible for a mutator experienced person to make. But nobody even thinks about I guess. Nobody cares :(.

    We have to ask geogob, yur... (forget it, he doesn't like this idea, he doesn't like me :p), UN17, don't know who else, and finally Beppo maybe?
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2005
  16. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    WEAPON HANDLING (alternate low-ready idea)

    I never mentioned because of the "Bad News", but I just post it, for fun.

    The weapon handling (aiming) can pretty much stay is it is in all games. Tap aim-key to aim, when aimed hold aim-key to hold breath/control, tap aim-key again to unaim.
    Just like in current INF and like every game has it, so p00r n00bs w0nt be c0nf00zed.

    But to acces the low-ready mode you have to have the weapon unaimed (shouldered) and holding the aim-key will take the weapon down to low-ready. That would keep the classical aiming system (which players are used to) and still allow to operate the lowready fast with the same aim key.

    If you look at INF, the held aim-key option, when the weapon is unaimed, is sort of wasted in INF (I know it still stabilized the weapon, but nobody is using it anyway), so the hold aim-key while unaimed can be used to operate the lowready.



    They are various ways for this feature:

    1) The straight and simple would be you hold the aim-key and the weapon simply moves down and keeps that way untill you tap the aim, or fire key where it will get to the high-ready position again.

    2) Another way would be that holding the aim-key when weapon is unaimed will temporary lower the weapon, on release the weapon moves back, but when the weapon is lowered (you hold the aim-key) tapping the fire key will adjust the weapon on low-ready. To high-ready again you tap the aim, or fire key.


    3) Another feature would be possible to increase the freeaim zone when holding the aim-key when weapon is unaimed. When moving the weapon lower the weapon moves down untill it moves off the screen (low-ready).
    When you release the aim-key while the weapon is still visible on the screen, it moves back to high-ready (this feature is usefull to navigate the weapon through smaller obstacles, without to lower the weapon completely).
    When the weapon is off the screen and you release the aim-key it stays at low-ready.
    Tapping the aim, or fire key takes it to high-ready, OR simply keep the aim-key held and move the weapon manually back to a higher (visible) position (when higher position release the key and the gun takes the normal high-ready position).



    The first point would be the simple and functional thing and fast to use.
    The second point is good for weapon 'quick lowering and raising', but may be to complicated to use the 'contineous' low-ready position fast.
    The third would allow a larger control/flexibility and be more intuitive, but may suck when you want to simply lower the weapon fast (because you need to manually lower it with the mouse).

    The classical tap aim-key to aim a weapon would be saved.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2006
  17. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    MOVEMENT

    And now my (actually) favorite point, the movement.

    They need to be 4 movement modes: 1) normal walk, 2) fast-walk/slow-jog, 3) run/jog, 4) sprint.
    The point is that the visual kind of movement depends on the weapon position (fast-walk and run when weapon in high-ready, slow-jog and normal jog when weapon is in low-ready).
    The difference between the fast-walk and slow-jog, or the run and normal jog is only visual, because when the weapon is held at a low position they is no need to control the movement (minimizing bobbing of the torso) and you move more relaxed (easy jog instead of controlled fast-walk, or run).

    Using the 'movement key' will toggle between the normal walk and fast-walk/slow-jog, holding the 'movement key' will let you run/jog. The 'sprint key' will let you sprint.


    1) Normal Walk
    Use the 'movement key' to toggle.

    High-Ready and Low-Ready:
    The normal walk is the same if the weapon is held at high-ready, or low-ready. The visual difference may be only a slightly more upright stance when the weapon is in low-ready.

    - The speed is same as in current INF.


    2) Fast-Walk/Slow-Jog
    Use the 'movement key' to toggle.

    High-Ready:
    When the weapon is held at high-ready you use the fast-walk, the movement is fast, but not as fast as a run, the weapon is pretty accurate in CQB. The meaning of the fast-walk is to minimize bobbing and have a more stabilized weapon.

    Low-Ready:
    When the weapon is held at low-ready they is no need to use the flat and controlled fast-walk movement and you start to jog slowly (more bobbing in the 3rd person animation and 1st person view). This jog is still slow and silent and has an extremely low stamina loss.
    Maybe the slow jog can be even slightly faster than the fast-walk (unnoticeable, but still affecting).

    - The movement is a bit slower than the curent INF jog.


    3) Run/Jog
    Holding the 'movement key' you run (jog).

    High-Ready:
    The run is not to fast and allows you to move temporary faster in CQB, with still as controlled weapon as possible.

    Low-Ready:
    When the weapon is in low-ready, the movement visually looks like a jog (more bobbing in the 3rd person animation and 1st person view).

    - The movement is slightly faster than the current INF jog. A good movement to jog a fair bit, but not to extremely long.
    - Stamina loss is acceptable.
    - Inertia affects you pretty much.

    If you want to use the run/jog longer maybe tapping the 'sprint key' can adjust the run/jog, without the need to hold the 'movement key' all the time.


    4) Sprint
    Hold the 'sprint key' and you sprint just like in INF, you drop any weapon positions and leave any other stances and simply start to sprint.

    - The movement is about same fast as in current INF and decrease stamina pretty fast, but not to fast.
    - Inertia affects you very much.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2006
  18. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    STAIR MOVEMENT

    They can be pretty much only 3 stair movement types:

    1) When you walk normal you keep walking on stairs, but slightly slower (more careful), no matter how you hold your weapon.

    2) When you use one of the faster movements and keep your weapon at high-ready (fast-walk, run), you move in a fast-walk, but slower than that normal fast-walk.

    3) When you use one of the faster movements and keep your weapon at low-ready (slow-jog, jog, sprint), you move in a fast-walk, that is as fast as the normal fast-walk.


    The reason is simple, when you have your weapon at low-ready you are aware of what is going down there (feet and stairs) and are more self concious about your movement, thats why you move faster than when you hold the weapon at high-ready.

    When you move the stairs fast and have the weapon at high-ready you don't really keep the feet insight and are more careful when you move fast on stairs and thats why you move a bit slower.

    When you use the normal (slow) walk you allready move careful.
     
  19. Buddz

    Buddz New Member

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    Hey, what about using holding primary attack as aiming?
    That seems like pretty simple and intuitive to me.
     
  20. Crowze

    Crowze Bird Brain

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    There is a minor logical flaw with your idea, I'm afraid.
     

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