Mutator Concept Idea (based on AimView & TrueScale)

[chuckus]

When the weapon is hipped, holding the aim key down would immediately shoulder it AND aim through the sights in one smooth action.

Holding any key time implies a wait time just like holding it down to steady the weapon in INF right now. That delay is more than enough to get you killed and it happens already in INF if you try to beat someone trying to shoot you. The wait time + animation time to bring the weapon up is not realistic. The animation time alone is realistic. Any extra time added to that from the moment of contact is superfluous.

That wouldn't work. Everytime you go to aim at a target in the lower right of your screen, the weapon would go into high ready! bleh!

That's why I decided to go for the wait time. If you're going to wait you should be waiting AFTER a contact not during a contact. If you are aiming all over the screen the weapon won't go into high ready. If you place the weapon in the lower right free aim zone and then place the wait time you would on the hold key, then you'd be doing your wait time in a "non contact" situation.

I'm just playign devils advocate I still stand by my position that high ready is not really necesary in INF.

 

[Psychomorph]

Low ready would need new 3rd person animations to match what you see on screen, AFAIK getting new 3rd person animations into INF is impossible because all the necessary files have been lost.

Jayhova was speaking about high-ready as it seems, but @ low-ready, I'm sure it is possible in INF, I mean is it a moddable engine or not? The question is just: is it worth the effort, since it is one? Seems not to be the case, but would be cool anyway.
As for the 1st person, I think a lowready can be done, by having the weapon not visible in the "hipped" mode, where the gun can't be fired (using the key can shoulder it, just like the aim key).
That would give you the low-ready dynamics allready, but in the 3rd person it would look hipped (while not usable that way).
Maybe it could be done like with the INF sniper rifles, while I personally would rather prefer it the usual INF rifle hipped way then.

Aiming should be possible from both, the highready position and hipped (low) aswell, sure.

As far as non-stocked weapons like pistols are concerned they are the only weapon in INF that takes longer to deploy in the game than it does IRL which is just silly IMO. The pistols even have a two handed grip. The whole point of a two handed grip is to center and steady the weapon. For the most part there is no reason to fire a pistol from the hip ever. They do and should come straight up to iron sight mode. Right now INF treats all iron sight weapons the same. They aren't.

Absolutely. See my "Request for fast sidegun draw" thread, and note how I was b*tched and flamed, lol. "As real as it gets" .

As far as going directly from hipped to iron sight, this is unrealistic for a stocked weapon.

As Keihas said, it wont skip the shouldered, it playes both actions, the shouldering and than instantly the aiming, by simply holding the key instead to push it, waiting till the gun is shouldered and than holding it to aim. It is about comfort in controls and fast aiming from the hip/lowready.

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You mean "sticky shoulder method", that after aim the rifles always move to the highready (especially for savety reasons, to be able to reaim again fast)? Absolutely.

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Yes, sniper rifles can be shouldered without aiming. My main reason for this is just like the highready is a position that supports fast aiming, same the sniper rifle at the highready should be like a preparation position to fast aim at a target, ALSO to place the scope on the target accurate, which is more comfortable if the weapon is allready pointed forward, instead of to aim it from the hip and move the scope untill you finally catch the target.

I think they are ways to prevent sniper rifles from beeing used in CQB like rifles. I think that if you stand/kneel or walk/crouch-slow, the sniper rifle can be held and fired from the shoulder unaimed, but when you jog, it is held like in current INF the sniper at sprint (barrel up). While when you stop, it gets shouldered again, BUT after a sprint it stays at the hip just like now in INF.

 

[Psychomorph]

@chuckus:
In reality most things feel fluid and as one, you take the rifle to lowready intuitively aswell, but how to make all this in the game? I still searching for keyless solutions, but your "moving the aimed rifle to the right lower corner" idea has same problems like Beppo's & jayhova's "lollypop" concept (we discussed it in the past), where you move the rifle to the middle of the bottom screen, to take it to lowready, keyless.
These functions can be annoying if they are done without your intention, just because you accidently moved the weapon there, while you wanted just to look lower or look to the lower side (from a roof).
I rather prefer holding a key and know for sure that I have full control over all my actions.

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You are speaking about snap shots from a quick aimed position, don't you? I agree that in CQB it have to be done very quick, the original concept of highready/aim included a holding key for rifles/shotguns/smg's and maybe MG's too.
Holding is simply better when you need to quick aim and snap shot and unaim again and all that on the move in CQB. Better holding and releasing than clicking and clicking.


As for the effectivity, you're right of course, but they are some points I would like to "advocate":
In INF you have the sights "aimed" and need just to raise them to make aimed quickshots, but with the highready/aim concept you would raise the lowered weapon too AND during the "movement" hold the aim key to aim the sight, result would be, that it would take about same time to place the sights. Advantage even would be, that you don't need to hold the rifle that low, like in current INF to have a full free look over the sight.

Ok, you can argue that with the current INF system you don't need to hold/push any keys and that is more comfortable, but they is another point to think about:
In INF the sights are centered always, to put them on a target, you need to move them up, which makes the target disappear out from your view for a short time (covered by the rear sight apperture).
With true to life modeled sights and a more true to life distance of the rearsight to the eye, which makes the sight beeing much bigger in total, it will be a huge problem in CQB (a really huge) to do these extreme fast and effective aimed snap-shots (see FAMAS sight).

The highready/aim system on other hand allows you a longer visual contact to the target untill it is "marked" with the sight. You would move the gun toward the target, still having visual contact, than the sights appear at the centre lightning fast and you can instantly squeeze the trigger. The sights would appear centered havig the target inside the aperture allready (at least the chance for this to happen is pretty high, with practice even higher).

My main point suggesting this aiming system is not only to have it visually as clean as posible, or to support/make easier unaimed shooting, but rather to support the ironsight use as good as possible.
I hate nothing more than the lame aiming in games like AA:O, while in reality I can aim a rifle more than double as fast, placing the sights almost exactly on the point I want to hit without loosing the target out of sights (the accuracy on other hand is another story).

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As for the aim animation speed. Depends on what can be done coding wise, but I speak about a really fast one.
I mean the right eye is slightly above the rearsight (sort of), you just lower the head slightly and close the left eye, which means you have a short animation of the gun moving only up a bit, untill the sight instantly appears centered without any further animations (just some "rest" movement and further sight stabilization).
Yes, NO fluid "to the center" movement of the gun model, that is NOT what you see in reality.
Same goes for unaiming, I mean you release (or push again) the aim key and the sight disappears INSTANTLY, you just see the weapon model appearing at the right side continuing a short animation (moves lower slightly, because the head is lifted to look with both eyes over the sight again).


It's ok if you have your (different) opinion on that topic, but imo these are some serious argumentz .

With a shouldered and very concentrated weapon position that I suggest, it wont be a such big problem to fire unaimed on really close distances, nor is it in real life.

But to fire accurate on larger distances, absolutely,

Well maybe I misread your post but you said this:

So, the question is, would it be possible to make the unaimed-shouldered weapon position same as I explained above, but holding the "aim key" wont move the weapon exactly to the center, but a bit off. The Dot will appear and give you a simulated "with both eyes aimed" view.

From what I gather and what I seei nthe pic, your "simulated with both eyes aimed view" is a cross hair which means it's even more accurate than the iron sights themselves. Could you clarify

This is about reflex / red dot sights only. These sights can be aimed with both eyes open (I'm sure you know that).
Look at this example I've made some time ago. From what I experienced the left eye sees an aimed rifle at the right side, which is visually dominant, because it is at a distance to the eye, you simply notice it at the right side. The right eye sees the rather blurred out sight at the center, less noticeable, because the left eye compensates the blocked view area, the DOT is what you see clearly, because it is a glowing reflexion/projection.
You can not visually catch such an "image", or impression aesthetically in a game. I belive the pic I posted above is the most true to reality and aesthetically correct "solution" possible (sorry for the arrogance ).

That's why I say, that the weapon have to be even closer to the view in comparison to a high-ready weapon origin, but the DOT is centered.
Also because the aimed reflex sight is closer to "high-ready", than to "ironsight aim", it keeps the same freeaim zone as the high-ready, these are almost the one and same things (of course they are various differences, that will be noticed ingame).


Forgive me my radical view of things, but I rather have reflex sights completely NOT presented in the game, than having them implemented in a wrong way.

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Your training experience is interessting, keep em comin . I also have some question in relation with movement, but later on this, my posts are allready so F**KING HUGE!

 

[Psychomorph]

@chuckus:
Ok, just a quick question. Byside a weapon handling mutator I defenitely like the idea of a movement mutator, they might be limitations with UT inf, but I'm sure some things can be changed.

1. The walk should stay as it is.

2a. With the weapon shouldered, instead of the jog you walk fast (a very slightly slower than jog), the screen bobbing is not so extreme, the weapons do not bob so much either, even aimed sights are fairly stable (as far you can speak about stable, but definitely not so inaccurate like in INF now).
I even think about using INF's walking animation for this, just played faster, don't know if it will look good.

2b. With the weapon hipped/low, it is a pure jog, but not to fast, like INF now. They is more view and weapon bob, like current INF.

3. Holding the "sprint key" you sprint, just like in INF now. While I would prefer to be able to make a run with a shouldered weapon aswell (with more stamina loss), maybe by holding the "movement key", but I don't know if that can be coded glitchless.



Just curious, how you trained the movement.

 

[chuckus]

@chuckus:
Ok, just a quick question. Byside a weapon handling mutator I defenitely like the idea of a movement mutator, they might be limitations with UT inf, but I'm sure some things can be changed.

1. The walk should stay as it is.

2a. With the weapon shouldered, instead of the jog you walk fast (a very slightly slower than jog), the screen bobbing is not so extreme, the weapons do not bob so much either, even aimed sights are fairly stable (as far you can speak about stable, but definitely not so inaccurate like in INF now).
I even think about using INF's walking animation for this, just played faster, don't know if it will look good.

2b. With the weapon hipped/low, it is a pure jog, but not to fast, like INF now. They is more view and weapon bob, like current INF.

3. Holding the "sprint key" you sprint, just like in INF now. While I would prefer to be able to make a run with a shouldered weapon aswell (with more stamina loss), maybe by holding the "movement key", but I don't know if that can be coded glitchless.



Just curious, how you trained the movement.

Well in my experience, The aim bob in INF is too little. But keep in mind that I'm pretty short so things are a bit more awkward for me compared to someone who is say 5'8"-6'0". The older guys in my unit can speed walk and keep a bead on the target through the elcan scope perfectly so long as they move straight. (no strafing or turning)

What you describe in 2a is quite possible but only on solid flat ground and in INF you transition from "rocky" terrain to indoors fairly frequently. In RTK, what you describe wouldn't be possible. But UKtown it would be. So it's hard to implement.

As far as movement. I feel Rainbow six has the best movement for Urban combat and typical action shooters have best movement for open field combat. (going prone doesn't take as long as INF made it) I feel INF made a compromise between the two and it works great for it's intended purpose.

I think the best solution would be an overhaul of the movement system and create an on off switch for urban combat movement and open field movement. In urban, you would have stable sights but more movement restrictions (really slow strafe for example) and open field combat would play more like INF does now.

Forcing people to use one versus the other at an appropriate time would lie in the balances and map making as someone using Urban movement in an urban environment should have an advantage over someone in open field movement and vice versa.

How to implement? beats me. Never gave it much thought. I simply based it on the fact that when we do frontal assault drills we move like maniacs and concentrate on putting fire down range not so much accuracy. In FIBUA, it's all about stability, lightning fast speed and and disciplined precise movement.

This is about reflex / red dot sights only. These sights can be aimed with both eyes open (I'm sure you know that).
Look at this example I've made some time ago. From what I experienced the left eye sees an aimed rifle at the right side, which is visually dominant, because it is at a distance to the eye, you simply notice it at the right side. The right eye sees the rather blurred out sight at the center, less noticeable, because the left eye compensates the blocked view area, the DOT is what you see clearly, because it is a glowing reflexion/projection.
You can not visually catch such an "image", or impression aesthetically in a game. I belive the pic I posted above is the most true to reality and aesthetically correct "solution" possible (sorry for the arrogance ).

Never heard of that technique (then again I've never used a reflex sight). I have done the one where you keep both eyes open while looking through a scope. It has a neat effect where you see both the magnified scope image while preventing tunnel vision by seeing a bit of you're peripheral vision. But this is only suited to certain people as it hurts my eyes and distracts somewhat (I can't multitask so I have to shift attention from one view to the next. Impossible to replicate in a game really it's quite a unique sensation especially when trying to shoot an enemy 200m away )

 

[keihaswarrior]

Holding any key time implies a wait time just like holding it down to steady the weapon in INF right now.

No it doesn't. It could be made to happen almost instantly if the coder wanted it that way.

The animation time alone is realistic. ...

Aiming in INF is WAAAY too fast. Maybe the speed with which it is shouldered and pointed is ok in INF, but the speed with which the INF soldier is able to stop, crouch, and aim with extreme accuracy is insane. Good INF players can go from hipped jogging to shooting bad guys over 100m away in less than half a second. That's too fast.

That's why I decided to go for the wait time. If you're going to wait you should be waiting AFTER a contact not during a contact. If you are aiming all over the screen the weapon won't go into high ready. If you place the weapon in the lower right free aim zone and then place the wait time you would on the hold key, then you'd be doing your wait time in a "non contact" situation.

Like Psychomorph said, that wouldn't work well due to the game sometimes putting you into high-ready when you don't want to be.

 

[Psychomorph]

I feel Rainbow six has the best movement for Urban combat and typical action shooters have best movement for open field combat. (going prone doesn't take as long as INF made it) I feel INF made a compromise between the two and it works great for it's intended purpose.
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When we do frontal assault drills we move like maniacs and concentrate on putting fire down range not so much accuracy.
In FIBUA, it's all about stability, lightning fast speed and and disciplined precise movement.

Sure in reality you do what ever is needed to have enough speed, or to have the weapon as controlled as possible and they can be variations dependant on the situation.
You can use various modes in a game, but I actually thing about three movements, that can be controlled with one key (two if counting in the sprint key additionally).
Since the last two movements of these three are modified when the weapon has a low position you can speak about five upright movements:

When the weapon is shouldered, using the "movement key", you toggle between the 1) normal walk and 2a) fast walk, these movements are for stability and controlled movement.
Holding the "movement key" allows you to 3a) run, when speed is needed. Releasing the "movement key" you drop to fast walk, even if you started from the normal walk (like in INF after sprint you jog).

When the weapon is low, using the "movement key", you toggle between the 1) normal walk and 2b) jog, jog is good for moving from one distant point to another without getting tired to fast.
Holding the "movement key" allows you to 3b) sprint, when speed is needed. Releasing the "movement key" you drop to jog.


In short, you toggle the "movement key" in FIBUA for controlled movement and hold it if speed is needed.
In open areas, when doing the "frontal assault" thing, you walk fast, if more weapon control is required, and hold the "movement key" when you need to move like a maniac and still can put fire down range.

With the weapon shouldered you have the "combat movement mode", which balances speed with weapon accuracy. When weapon is low you have the "movement mode", which doesn't care about weapon control, but only about movement (hence jog, no controlled fast walk).


I think this is perfect for a game and covers alot of situations.

What you describe in 2a is quite possible but only on solid flat ground and in INF you transition from "rocky" terrain to indoors fairly frequently. In RTK, what you describe wouldn't be possible. But UKtown it would be. So it's hard to implement.

That's true of course. When you deal with downward gradient, it influences your movement, like moving up a hill makes you slower and more tired, moving down a hill fastens you up and you jog instead of walking fast (no matter if wepaon is still shouldered), weapon accuracy is much worse then.

As for different surfaces. I remember that in games you can define sounds for textures, I belive in UT it works too. When moving on a sand texture, the sand step sounds are played, moving on rock, plays the rock sound.
What about if this can be used for movement speeds too? Moving on sand makes you slower and tired faster, moving on a rock (not solid) makes your movement slower and more inaccurate.

 

[Demosthanese]

No it doesn't. It could be made to happen almost instantly if the coder wanted it that way.


Aiming in INF is WAAAY too fast. Maybe the speed with which it is shouldered and pointed is ok in INF, but the speed with which the INF soldier is able to stop, crouch, and aim with extreme accuracy is insane. Good INF players can go from hipped jogging to shooting bad guys over 100m away in less than half a second. That's too fast.


Like Psychomorph said, that wouldn't work well due to the game sometimes putting you into high-ready when you don't want to be.

It still adds delay. Even if only a tenth of a second, and if the delay is too short, people that click the button for the first response may get the delay response. Just like accidently dodging off the side of a cliff in UT, if you set the douple tap time too long or not dodgeing when you need to if you set it too short.

Artificially increasing reaction time is not the answer. In RAv3, you can't go straight from jogging to 100m sniping in a second. Yurch made the weapons handle more realistically rather than adding in bull**** delays and clumsy interface to slow the player down.

 

[chuckus]

that wouldn't work well due to the game sometimes putting you into high-ready when you don't want to be.

The opposite applies to your solution. Rather than accidentaly having the weapon go to high ready in a time when it doesn't matter. The weapon won't aim properly when you need it to.

Or it might just wind up in high ready because you didn't hold it long enough. Your might aim rather than go to high ready becasue the wait time is too short.

 

[Psychomorph]

For holding aim key, wait time doesn't matter, you either click it which will take the gun low, or hold it untill the sights are clearly aimed.

 

[chuckus]

For holding aim key, wait time doesn't matter, you either click it which will take the gun low, or hold it untill the sights are clearly aimed.

The wait time + animation time to bring the weapon up is not realistic. The animation time alone is realistic.

Well either way you guys aren't reading or understanding our posts countering yours so I suggest you find a way to make the mutator and we'll see what it's like in practice because we're going in circles and rather than trying to address our concerns and provide solutions you're just saying they don't exist.

 

[Psychomorph]

It was addressed at the "Or it might just wind up in high ready because you didn't hold it long enough".

 

[Psychomorph]

Anyway, f*ck I did it again, hope that was the last time.