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Mutator Concept Idea (based on AimView & TrueScale)

Discussion in 'Infiltration Development' started by Psychomorph, Apr 17, 2006.

  1. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    I loaded INF with the two mutators, AimView (by Beppo) and TrueScale (by TOAD).
    Both mutators conflict with eachother and cause some glitches, but interessting ones, that got me to think about my notorious "aimed-shouldered/unaimed-shouldered" thing again.

    AimView zooms the view to a lower fov if you aim and hold the "aim key". In combination with True Scale this function is screwed up, you have no zoom and the original INF weapons move a bit up, a bit either to the left or right and backward. IMT weapons just get lowered a bit, where the weapons keep beeing centerd, but you look over the sights.

    See first attached picture.


    1
    Now seriously.
    - Wouldn't it be possible to change the 1st person weapon position, where the models are located slightly at the right and slightly lower, also slightly backward, giving you a perfect unaimed-shouldered "over the sights looking" weapon view?
    - Holding the "aim key" will have the same effect like in the AimView/TrueScale combo, where the weapon moves to a fully centered position AND slightly more backward, giving you a perfect aimed view with bigger (closer to the eye) and comfortable to aim sights.

    As I understand, are the INF aimed and hipped position one and the same thing, connected with an animation, so changing the aimed weapon origin means to change also the hipped weapon position, something that I think is even better!

    - I really hope that would be also possible for scoped rifles, ESPECIALLY!!! for ACOG rifles.
    In case of sniper rifles, which are heavy, the shouldering animation should be played much slower.


    2
    Another point. I made a screenshot during the "switch to aim from hip" animation of the MP5A2 with the EOTech reflex sight.
    Cool is, that it looks like how I imagine a binocular aimed reflex sight should be. Because the Dot appears before the weapon reaches the centered aim position I was able to catch such a screenshot.

    So, the question is, would it be possible to make the unaimed-shouldered weapon position same as I explained above, but holding the "aim key" wont move the weapon exactly to the center, but a bit off. The Dot will appear and give you a simulated "with both eyes aimed" view.

    I know such a sight is very effective in several points, but damn, that's just how it is. Either ban them from your server, or allow them for all.

    See second attached picture.


    3
    Another story.
    TrueScale has a very good effect for sniper scopes (PSG1 tested).
    - If you move the scope bobbs so, that it gives you really the impression you look through a "pipe", like they are two misalingning lenses.
    This effect is made when you walk. Imo, if you walk you should be able to keep the sights pretty stable, so this effect should be made when you JOG.

    - Something that is sadly not presented is the same "lens misaligning" effect when you fire, hopefully that can be coded aswell, because I heared that happens when you fire a real sniper rifle.

    - Another very nice feature of TrueScale is the better scope swaying behavior AND that even if you hold breath, the view still sways a bit if you stand, sways slightly less if you kneel and doesn't sway if you prone and hold breath.
    Very good, that is something INF should have for sure.

    - Another VERY good aspect is, that the scope doesn't move! While I wouldn't mind still to keep a slight freeaim, for aesthetics, but the EXTREMELY huge and EXTREMELY annoying scope freeaim in 2.9 should be gone.
    With true scale it is so comfortable to aim the scope and you switch to the scope-aim far more accurate, you just have to deal with a more realistic scope sway and behavior in a realistic way (changing your stance).
    I personally would even prefer this for iron sights, but NOT for reflex sights.

    See third attached picture.


    ----

    I know that I base my suggestion on glitches, but exactly these glitches show me, that this stuff might be possible, it is all coding. I can't say for sure of course, hope they is hope.

    Note that this glitch (AimView+TrueScale) doesn't influence, or requires another 3rd person animations/positions. Hipped would keep the rifle hipped. Aimed-shouldered and unaimed-shouldered would use all the same standart INF shouldered position.
     

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  2. Crowze

    Crowze Bird Brain

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    1. There is no aim/unaim animation. The problem is, since all the models are different dimensions, you can't just set the offsets to the same value and expect it to work.

    2. Might be possible, but would involve an RAv3-style replacement of all weapons. But... it's a f**king crosshair :p.

    3. Have you tried the vanilla scopes? The lens misalignment is very much in effect. It looks like TrueAim just exaggerates it.

    Of course. Anything is possible. But it seems to me you want to get rid of everything that makes Inf unique, namely true iron sights and freeaim, and I'd be surprised if anyone would want to take the amount of time needed to do this. You should take up coding yourself.
     
  3. UN17

    UN17 Taijutsu Specialist

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    He really should! Make all his dreams a reality. I did it, and I'm a math flunkie!

    * hugs all his unreleased coding projects that make INF better *
     
  4. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    @Crowze:

    1. Yes, the dimensions could be problematic, but the "glitch" changes the weapon position (fluidly) and takes it closer to the view and it probably has no aim/unaim animation aswell.
    Or do you speak about the 3rd person? The 3rd person would have the standart INF "aimed position" for both.

    2. RAv3-style replacement of all weapons, what is it about exactly?
    Yeah, reflex sights are f*cking crosshairs.

    3. For the normal walk the sights should be even more stable than in 2.9 vanilla, but for the jog I think this "exeggerated" scope bob is perfect.


    What you mean "get rid of true iron sights"? I think the way I suggest it are rather the "true iron sights".
    And what you mean with "get rid of freeaim"? Freeaim stays, just the freeaim of aimed sights have to be more limitted than normal, because you do not sway the sights around when you aim.

    I mean the unaimed-shouldered would be pretty much like in vanilla INF the aim, you can lower it using freeaim to get more view and avoid collision as good as possible, could easily use it for CQB snap shots. But would hold down the "aim key" to bring up the sights like you hold it to stabilize the sights in vanilla INF (while keeping the "aim key" held would stabilize the sight instantly after it is aimed).
    Actually it is the exact same concept, just more true to reality.

    I personally find it is nonsense when soldiers aim their weapon all the time and need no time to aim, just point and click, like a crosshair with freeaim and "hitpoint bobbing".
    Yes reflex sights are like this, but reflex sights aren't iron sights.

    As for pistols. I would make it, that the sights aren't exactly aligned (front sight is more at the left), but good enough to fire in CQB. Holding the "aim key" would align them properly which would simulate the left eye beeing closed. Releasing the "aim key" would disalign it again. So in case of pistols it is more correct to have the sights up all the time.


    Me and coding, muahah.


    BTW, good to hear that.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2006
  5. geogob

    geogob Koohii o nomimasu ka?

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    What did I say... every coder a decaded of work with all your good ideas. :eek:
     
  6. zeep

    zeep :(

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    Psych really, start learning some uscript. I'll be suprised if anyone programs all your ideas before the time has passed in which you learn it yourself.

    Man i messed up that phrase. Crack, where are you?
     
  7. yurch

    yurch Swinging the clue-by-four

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    Due to uscript and infiltration class organization, the base weapon class cannot be changed to have the results propogate to all dependants.

    Every weapon or class relying on the base weapon class must now be recompiled using your new base weapon subclass. This is alot of work, a pain in the ass, and very very buggy if you miss something. This is why RAv3 does not work properly with addon weapons.

    This effectively means any new weapon properties or functions you want applied to all weapons must be either added to every weapon individually or in the manner above.

    This reclass process is also the primary distinction between RA and RAv2.
     
  8. yurch

    yurch Swinging the clue-by-four

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    Oh man, you're telling me. I must've had like thirty of those things. My personal version of inf was a bizzare and insane world of colorful bullets flying everywhere and hitting nothing.
     
  9. geogob

    geogob Koohii o nomimasu ka?

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    I think I have something similar laying around... and soon to be dusted of and revived.

    Also, a problem with the RAV3 replacement style is that because some of the INFc_Weapon functions are limitating and with tons of hard coded stuff, they are often rewritten in new weapons.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2006
  10. chuckus

    chuckus Can't stop the bum rush.

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    Psych. I've read your post and I have to say the things you're advocating in your post are already replicated in INF in much more redundant and less clunky ways. The unaimed position is simply freeaim to the lower left or right of the screen. Now it may not have the same aesthetic feel as un-aimed shouldered appears to have in military pictures but having done it on patrols on course I can assure. It is EXACTLY the same thing. And i"ve done tests since the first exercise I had on my BMQ (basic military qualification). And there's one thing I learned. THIS **** IS NOT AS EASY AS IT LOOKS IN THE GAME. There's so many factors that a video game can't convey so these factors are lumped together and model is created. The inf system has many unnamed factors incorporated in its combat model than your proposed one does. Your's seems to look at the techniques from a text book perspective and apply them verbatim into a game model which wouldn't happen because every scenario requires an adjustement on the standards practices soldiers do in the field. Adapt and survive is the mantra of every soldier and this applies three fold to firing positions and drills.

    I can see by your suggestions that you have taken into account various problems and techniques that come along with infantry combat but the thing is your models to simulate them are too complex and clunky in execution and overly simplified in concept.

    What I think is happening is that you've gotten so used to the INF interface it FEELS like it's lacking that some what awkwardness that came along with its interface that made it feel much more kinetic and real than other video games.

    The unaimed two eye aiming for example. A crosshair defeats the purpose of unaimed firing. Un-aimed firing is something developed after years of training by soldiers in specific exercises to develop that skill (or in the past in theater as battles came and went). In the CF we call it instinctive shooting and I can tell you after 3 years in the reserves I haven't come close to developing it. However with hip shootign in INF, if the bot is close enough, I can hip shot it no problem because I've developed a feel for the interface and the various weapons and can sense when it's more or less on the mark. That's instinctive shooting. And when you've developed it it feels like the game is broken. It's not, you've just gotten better and now the game lacks that "first time in bed" feel that made us fall in love with it (sorry for cheesy simily here but it's reality).

    I'm not saying "shut up your idea are worthless" but I'm trying to help you understand our point of view and show you why, at least I think your model is broken by conveying my experience with weapons handling and combat drills and simulated exercises.
     
  11. geogob

    geogob Koohii o nomimasu ka?

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    I remember the first time i tried to hip-shoot someone with the minimi...

    ... I died.

    Now, it's feels so easy that it's a joke. But the minimi hasn't changed... I learned.
     
  12. Psychomorph

    Psychomorph  

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    @yurch:
    Thx for answer.

    I didn't really belive that the current INF weapons could be easily used for such "project". I would prefer creating custom weapons for this anyway, emphasis on more detailed ironsights, because the aimed position is meant to be an aimed position only (with closer sights), not an allrounder.
    IMT weapons are of course good stuff, but they are various things I don't like about them.


    @chuckus:
    Sorry seems pretty long, but I answer to most of your points so..

    Quote by chuckus:
    Psych. I've read your post and I have to say the things you're advocating in your post are already replicated in INF in much more redundant and less clunky ways.

    Exactly THIS is what I say, INF got the stuff allready, it just (imo) needs to be made visually more "accurate".


    Quote by chuckus:
    The unaimed position is simply freeaim to the lower left or right of the screen. Now it may not have the same aesthetic feel as un-aimed shouldered appears to have in military pictures but having done it on patrols on course I can assure. It is EXACTLY the same thing. And i"ve done tests since the first exercise I had on my BMQ (basic military qualification).

    I know that in INF it is the exact same thing, it just isn't visually correct, or do you see your weapon centered, sights aligned all the time?
    I want to have a very centered and close to the center placed weapon model, that behaves almost exactly like in INF (lowering with freeaim, the right side still open enough to the peripheral), but still is not an always aimed weapon which needs no aiming time and no aligning.

    I want the aim be closer to reality by having a very small freeaim, because you simply do not lower the gun when aiming, if you do the sights misalign where the frontsight moves to far up untill you do not see it through the rearsight aperture. To keep them in line you need to lift the shoulder, wich is extra effort with a worse result, so you better keep the head (layed on buttstock) and weapon in a stable position and move "both", which causes the view movement and gun movement beeing "syncron".


    Quote by chuckus:
    And there's one thing I learned. THIS **** IS NOT AS EASY AS IT LOOKS IN THE GAME.

    Exactly thats my point. In INF it WORKS as easy as it looks. Players need no aiming time (just the sight placing on target time), which ends in standing INF players shooting a target on 80 meter with just 0.5 seconds aiming time (if lucky 0.298 seconds).

    In reality the whole process is far more, as you say, difficult.
    Holding the rifle at the highready is a good start for effective and fast aiming as a pure reaction, and aiming can be done lightning fast (I personally, as an untrained person, can aim as double as fast as in the game Americas Army), what I find the real difficult job is, to align the sights as fast as possible, which would probably mean that a fair ammount of time would pass untill I (untrained shooter) could make the first well placed shot. And I do not speak about keeping the sights stable for a longer time, which I can do pretty long (not 100% stable of course), I speak about the fast aligning of the sights during an aiming process.

    Look INF, it is way to easy to fire aimed shots. Byside this, rifles with scopes can be used from hip only, I still want to fire it from the shoulder in close combat. Rifles with uncomfortable sights are a disadvantage in CQB, while in reality it doesn't matter.
    AND, the ability to aim sights physically lightning fast, makes them usable even on CQB if you wish, you just would need to wait a bit longer to fire accurate with aligned sights, or to stabilize the scope (or ironsight when "extra" tired).

    In my opinion, a "highready/aim" system is byfar more flexible than INF's, you just need to additionally hold/or push one key if sights are needed.
    All games have the "switch" to aim function (which I find the single more realistic feature than INF's in all these games).


    Quote by chuckus:
    What I think is happening is that you've gotten so used to the INF interface it FEELS like it's lacking that some what awkwardness that came along with its interface that made it feel much more kinetic and real than other video games.

    :p
    Actually, this "issue" is really old for me. I registered in these boards only to bring up this topic (with a screenshot from INF2.86 made during an animation, so it looked "highready").
    Fireing and using the weapons in INF was always supperior to other games to me, but I disliked the leak of a shouldered unaimed position and the swaying sights from the beginning.


    Quote by chuckus:
    The unaimed two eye aiming for example. A crosshair defeats the purpose of unaimed firing. Un-aimed firing is something developed after years of training by soldiers in specific exercises to develop that skill.

    With a shouldered and very concentrated weapon position that I suggest, it wont be a such big problem to fire unaimed on really close distances, nor is it in real life.

    But to fire accurate on larger distances, absolutely, it needs a lot of practise and skill, and I do not speak about a training ground only, I also count in stress in a combat.
    INF reflects this perfectly. On the shooting range you are more accurate from hip, than in a fast combat situation, where you absolutely do not hit sh*t.

    Real combat has a lot to do with instinct. And since natural human instinct is dangerous, where you drop yourself to the ground, losing all control and all the chances for defense, the instinct have to "formed". A drilled soldier reacts instinctively aswell, but differently, he rather kneels down and points the rifle toward the direction and it is instinct aswell, because in a real hot situation you do not think fast enough about how to behave correctly.
    Same in INF, you either spray uncontrolled, or are trained enough to keep control over your hipped weapon, by not moving the mouse like crazy and using bursts. In that case INF is sort of a simulation, of course not comparable to the real thing.


    Quote by chuckus:
    Your's seems to look at the techniques from a text book perspective and apply them verbatim into a game model which wouldn't happen because every scenario requires an adjustement on the standards practices soldiers do in the field. Adapt and survive is the mantra of every soldier and this applies three fold to firing positions and drills.

    The various problems that may occure in combat can still be presented in INF with this system. Receiving hits or any kind of damage (nearby explosion, falling) can drop the weapon to the hipped position (like IBT), can also affect the freeaim, where the rifle keeps beeing shouldered, but sways to the side/bottom a bit, which simulates the lose of control.
    They can be done many things, to make it flexible, human like.


    ----

    Look at the pics, the shouldered positions (pic 1 and 3) are very tight, close to the view, ready to be aimed. To gain more view you lower the weapon, in CQB you can react fast and point the gun toward the target and fire, without to worry about a scope on your gun, or about some huge ass sights.
    It is almost like INF, you just dont have the sights aimed all the f**king time.

    Aimed (pic 2 and 4) has the sights closer to the view, for comfortable aiming (visible front sight at all, lol) and to have enough view inside the aperture. For the sight aligning sake freeaim is limitted to a very small circular freeaim zone.
    Byside this I also thought about a slight zoom when aiming, no, not the binoculars zoom like in AA:O, I mean such a small zoom, enough that make out of 3 pixels in the horizon 6, one that cuts the peripheral view a bit. Maybe even an overlay like in pic 5, that "simulates" a smaller peripheral view.
    You can resize the pics to get a fullscreen view.

    Reflex sights for example need no alignment of a front and rearsight, you just need to keep track of the dot, thats why aimed reflex sights can be swayed more and pistol sight aligment is done by the hand joints, so you can sway them as you want, you just need to have the arms streched enough to have a stable fireing stance.



    Ok, I quit, but as said, I think a "highready/aim" system is needed, but not like in other games, which I dislike, but very close to INF's freeaim story.
    INF doesn't need change, it needs optimization.
     

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  13. keihaswarrior

    keihaswarrior New Member

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    I agree with you Psycho, it would be nice to have a high ready aim view.

    It doesn't look very hard to code either (apart from the weapon reclassing nightmare)

    Everything about INF weapon aiming would be exactly the same except when aimed but not 'holding breath.' When not holding down aim, you would be in high ready.

    So it works like this:
    1) Start in hipped position exactly like INF has it.
    2) Clicking the AIM key takes you to high ready. Clicking it again goes back to hip
    3) While in hipped or high ready, holding down AIM key takes you to ironsights view, exactly how INF has aim view now.

    ^^^^^^^^^^This doesn't look too hard to do. No new animations, models, skins, etc. You simply are changing the position of the weapons.

    (BTW, you'll like what IMT has in store for you in the next WP ;) )
     
  14. jayhova

    jayhova Don't hate me because I'm pretty

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    I too agree with Psychomorph on 90% of his suggestion. The low ready position is just more realistic than the hipped. The hipped is not even really hipped it's more like under the arm. Most firearms you would simply never fire from the hip. The only exception to this might be the SAW, a weapon so heavy that running around with it on your shoulder would be very tiring.

    I seem to sense that some people are afraid that if low ready were implemented, shooting would become to easy. Well it might. it would be easier to use sniper rifles at close range. Hell the Robar was nerfed because it was too deadly at close range. But lets face it folks you can fire a robar or any other scoped weapon with out looking through the scope. This is just realistic and INFs motto is "as real as it gets.".

    My only differance with Psychomorph is on how I think this should be implemented. For some time I have advocated a sticky shoulder method of doing this. The explaination for this is that you start out in the hip mode then hit the aim button to shoulder the weapon then again (or hold the key/button) to go to aimed mode. This makes sprinting more of a liability because it takes longer to go from hipped (forced by sprinting) to fully aimed. This gives a walker an advantage over a sprinter. There is simply no reason for someone to hip their weapon unless forced to and doing so puts you at a big disadvantage.

    I would be interested in getting some feedback on the sticky shoulder idea. I should also clarify that if you are using a weapon that can't be aimed while jogging and you hit the aim button this would drop you into hipped.
     
  15. chuckus

    chuckus Can't stop the bum rush.

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    I agree that it isn't visually correct. My point is that your solution complicates the process of aiming in the wrong areas. Bringing the weapon from high ready to aimed is minimal. Having a sperate key or having to hold the key is completely inaccurate to the actualy experience of bring the weapon to the ready.

    This is the only conceivable use for high ready I can see in INF although I get along with hipped shooting just fine.

    In Real life you can swivel the weapon and turnyour head or toso while walking straight. This can't be replicated on the model itself so it is simply replicated using the freeaim system. The visuals seem incorrect but the model takes into account more than simply arm movement.


    Well maybe I misread your post but you said this

    From what I gather and what I seei nthe pic, your "simulated with both eyes aimed view" is a cross hair which means it's even more accurate than the iron sights themselves. Could you clarify

    Also let me explain some of the training exercises I've done. No they are not real combat but they we're good at simulating snap decisions and intense pressure on command and control.

    We spent the day ruck marching back and forth from several mock up cities designed for FIBUA (fighting in built up areas) training. Each city had many insctructors and other trainers who lived there for the weekend and would greet us and give us intel or just chat. Our objective was to execute peace keeping operations so pass flyers and shoot the **** or calm upset "inhabitants".

    Around 6 hours into the exercise and on our 4th "village" we were ambushed while talking to locals and immediately began urban combat drills. Half the platoon was wiped out but it showed me just what it's like to suddenly come under contact. We were using SIMUNITION so we knew whether we hit someone or were hit by someone. We cleared three buildings and took out one moving sniper using "civilians" as cover The buildings were boobie trapped and the multilevel buildings have built in murder holes and crawl spaces were people can hide and ambush us. It was a constant high ready/aimed run/walk scenario.

    If the mechanism to go from high ready to aimed is a hold key then there's no way to accurately simulate snap shooting (a quick pull to the ready and double tap). The current free aim, although visually inaccurate, is a perfect simulation of that aspect 100%. I just think it's sacrificing realism gameplay wise to satisfy visual accuracy.

    Edit: here how about this

    Put the weapon in the lower right corner for a short period of time and the weapon drops to high ready. Right click brings it back to aimed right click again brings it to hipped. So it would work like this.

    -> = Right mouse click

    Hipped->Aimed - wait - weapon goes to high ready->Aimed ->hipped

    Or without wiaiting

    Hipped->aimed->hipped.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2006
  16. Demosthanese

    Demosthanese .

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    What would be cool is if we could select our legs and move them individually. Press a key, move the mouse forward, and the left leg goes forward. Press another key and move the mouse forward to move the right leg forward. It would be incredibly realistic!
     
  17. keihaswarrior

    keihaswarrior New Member

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    Psycho isn't really talking about a low-ready mutator, it would be a high ready one. Big difference. Low ready would need new 3rd person animations to match what you see on screen, AFAIK getting new 3rd person animations into INF is impossible because all the necessary files have been lost.

    I don't know why you call it 'sticky shoulder.' The method I outlined is clearly the best way to implement high ready without the need for a new keybind.

    Your 'sticky shoulder' method requires too much inorder to aim. For your method, it would go:
    Hip -->click aim --> goes to High Ready then -->hold aim goes to Ironsights.

    That is unnecessary, just allow the player to hold down aim which will bring up ironsights no matter what. Clicking aim toggles between aim/hipped.
     
  18. keihaswarrior

    keihaswarrior New Member

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    How so? What's your definition of 'snap shooting?' Holding down aim would quickly bring up the ironsights, I don't see why this doesn't simulate a snap shot.

    That wouldn't work. Everytime you go to aim at a target in the lower right of your screen, the weapon would go into high ready! bleh!
    Not only that, but there is no way to immediately go to high ready whenever you want, you have to wait until INF decides to put your weapon into high ready..... that would suck..... it would suck x 10 with lag.
     
  19. jayhova

    jayhova Don't hate me because I'm pretty

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    My bad. I should have said High ready

    OK...
    What you haven't said is where the weapon goes when you click the aim key in ironsights mode. If you hold it, it steadies the weapon. In my version you go back to high ready as there is no reason to take the weapon off your shoulder. This is what I mean by sticky shoulder.

    As far as going directly from hipped to iron sight, this is unrealistic for a stocked weapon. The weapon goes on your shoulder before you look through the sights. This is IMHO one of the problems with the way INF does things. For every stocked weapon I have ever fired, my head and hence my POV moves behind the sights. The sights don't move in front of my eye. To do this right the weapon would come up from the hip to rest on the shoulder then your POV would move to align with the sights. This could be done with something like the lean code where the weapon stays put and you lean behind it.

    As far as non-stocked weapons like pistols are concerned they are the only weapon in INF that takes longer to deploy in the game than it does IRL which is just silly IMO. The pistols even have a two handed grip. The whole point of a two handed grip is to center and steady the weapon. For the most part there is no reason to fire a pistol from the hip ever. They do and should come straight up to iron sight mode. Right now INF treats all iron sight weapons the same. They aren't.
     
  20. keihaswarrior

    keihaswarrior New Member

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    You can't click a key you are holding down ;) Upon release of the aim key, ironsights would transition back to high ready. Clicking aim simply toggles between hip and high ready.

    When the weapon is hipped, holding the aim key down would immediately shoulder it AND aim through the sights in one smooth action.

    Making the player pause in high ready before going to ironsights is unnecessary, unrealistic, slow, and clunky.
     

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