Let´s redefine "as real as it gets"

[mute_dammit]

At least 32 players per team.

[edit] plus noncombatants, of course.

 

[gal-z]

Hehe 32 players per team can be fun, but I wouldn't put that on top of priorities. The "get the CD" missions seem to fit a sqaud-sized (10-14 people) well.

 

[pnakotus]

There are some great ideas here; I think it says alot about INF that we're down to such 'simulation' issues, instead of 'balancing the MG' and stuff like other mods.

Personally I like the 2.9 walk/jog/sprint system; I use shift to toggle 'hurry/nohurry' and ctrl as my 'holy-****' button.

My big asks are details; as mentioned by Yurch, cover is useless in INF because of various factors, everyone is silent, etc. Proper playermodelled equipment would simplify many mechanics, like weapon change time, searching bodies, reload times, etc, and could even introduce the idea of properly preparing your loadout physically, so as not to leave your claymore in the bottom of you pack.

The Vietcong 'variable crouch' mechanism must be adopted! It always crouches you enough to be hidden behind objects, and when you aim you poke your head over and bring the sights up.

I'd like to see 'strafing' replaced with 'looking sideways', ie turning at the waist, instead of running around sideways. Accuracy and speed need a big hit here; shooting off axis like that should be more of a desperation move than SOP.

The whole 'hipped/aimed' thing needs work; maybe change the current 'aim' to simply 'raised to shoulder' and use the 'breathing control' to aling the sights. With proper physics (by Yurch[tm]) this would mean you could move with your weapon properly braced but without aligning the sights.

 

[MP_Lord_Kee]

Oh what the hell, I guess I could add some to this (just top of my head)

-I agree that the vietcong style of crouching behind obstacles and aiming by poking just enough over would be great as mentioned by pnakotus.

-You should be able to stable your gun on objects to steady your aim

-handsignals ala AA, would add a lot to the teamplay..

-jumping over low objects, such as a tree trunk, would use appropriate animation, like in vietcong. Same for entering buildings through windows..

- wind and weather + more complex sniping with mildots and sight adjustments (you'd need to do calculations on the fly for accurate shots)

- character design like in latest Tiger Woods and other games, i.e you can design your character from different set of face models, skin colors etc etc...this would make each player different and recognisable if implemented properly. Probably not possible

- team/squad/clan insignia on uniform (flag/logo, whatever).

- how about seperating clan name, player name and nickname. Would make it "easier" to balance teams according to clans etc and perhaps some other advantages.

Oh well, just some ideas, most probably pure garbage but some food for thought

//Kee

 

[Logan6]

omg PER-POLY HIT detection.

I am so sick of the ****ing coke can. When I shoot someone's leg, I want to hit it, when I shoot over their shoulder I want to miss them...

And a little tighter to boot. Tired of hitting over a foot over someones shoulder and watching them fall dead.

 

[keihaswarrior]

And a little tighter to boot.

Well, if it had per-poly detection, there wouldn't be a question of how "tight" it was. Except for lag issues, you would always hit the target exactly how you aimed with per-poly detection because it would be able to determine the exact polygon on the player model that the bullet hit.

There could even be organs and bones inside the player model, all with accurate penetration and wounding attributes.

 

[jayhova]

Aiming/shooting

1 Camera 'bob' is extreme. Practically to the point where it's a fix-all. It isn't nessesary. Really.

I completely agree with this. I hate the whole on a boat feeling that you get playing INF. It just isn't realistic. Breating should be simulated with upper torso movement i.e. the arms and chest. Not the head. On a similar note having the butt of the weapon move instead of the barrel is just broken. For the most part the head, stock and rear sight are nearly fixed in relation to each other however getting the front post on the target is by far the greatest challange.

2 A pure weapon vection system. (of which RAv2 had an incomplete version) Yes, that means: No more conefire for movement with or without hipping. The weapon shoots where it points. But before you get all excited, that also means that the vection system is mature enough that the players cannot rely on this for accuracy. This would be something that would require an extreme amount of work to be any good.

Some amount of conefire will always be nessasary. See 16. In addition to this it isn't possible for INF to simulate very small (less that one pixel) changes in sight alignment. It is also important to simulate a firm shooting position. As I have found far too many times a weak shooting position will cause you to miss even when the sights are aligned with the target, due to the weapon changing position and becoming missaigned while the round is leaving the weapon.

3 Recoil from an improperly supported firing position should act as such. Possibly altering not on randomization but on the player's input. The conefire described #1 can actually help auto-sprayers achieve a hit - the cone increases when they move, giving thier gun a sort of delayed shotgun-pattern.

The recoil in INF far too smooth. IRL you have a weapon that slams into your shoulder with enough force to give you a nasty bruise if you don't hold it tight to your shoulder. This is not the case in INF. In INF it seems more like a fire hose. IMHO recoil should induce a jerk rearward along with a more agressive and instantanious change in weapon attitude, not a smooth climb.

4 Bonuses from crouch/prone/breathing on accuracy, sensitivity or recoil should take TIME to come into play. Bonus should also eventually occur while standing still.

I agree. It takes time to build a good shooting position. A good shooting position increases your aim dramaticly. I would also like to see objects infront of the soldier have an effect on aim. If someone is in contact with a stable object they will find it much easier to steady thier weapon.

5 Scopes are merely optics attached to rifles. There is no reason the rifle should suddenly handle in a vastly different manner.

I agree. It would be even better if the optics could be implemented in parallel with the normal view.

6 Players move and act in unnatural manners. "Strafing" and jumping in particular, especially the ease of which the player changes directions. This is why bunnyhopping/circlestrafing is so easily abused - the target becomes a series of points the shooter has to interpolate rather than a smoothly moving human. This is both a fault of the animations and the response time of the avatar.

Again, I totally agree. Strafing a shown is just not possible for a human. The waist simply won't twist like that. It is possible to fire to the offhand side but not to the weapon hand side without switching hands. With pistols it would be possible but only with one hand. I'm right with you on the movement thing too. Spinning around while in a crotch or prone isn't possible. Speaking of which the times to change positions are FUBAR. Croutching is near instantainious while going prone and getting up takes forever. I don't know about you but someone was shooting at me I would be prone in less than a second. On the other hand, if I really hade to get the duck out of fodge I would be on my feet running real quick. Now I have never been in the military but I can recall seeing this sort of thing being practiced very regularly in training.

9 The crouched player seems to sit lower than his camera. Leaning players shoot out of thier foreheads.

I would like to see the camera shift towards the primary eye when the weapon is shouldered.

10 Most people I try to introduce to the game note that the stanima and run/walk/jog system is pretty akward.

I liked the old system better. Stamina is screwed. The bulk you carry should not count againt your stamina. It should only affect the rate your stamina diminishes. It may also to a much lesser extent affect your max sprint speed.

11 Movement Sounds! Movement Sounds! Movement Sounds! I assure you, the first thing you will notice if someone else is in the same house/room/hallway as you and is moving, you may be more likely to hear them first than to see them. RvS handles this pretty well in its demo, at least. Moving directly through bushes should make a racket and is often PLAINLY visible.

Indeed

13 Grenades need to stop being treated as nuclear devices. If you want to kill something for certain, shoot it directly.

I think you addressed this pretty well in your mutator. Unfortunatly it produces too much smoke [HINT] . There are also no side effects from grenades like deafness and stun. Grenades IRL produce a much brighter flash than in INF.

14 I'm under the impression that armour is intended to save your life, not keep you fighting immediately after the fact. Pistol rounds, maybe. PSG rounds, no.

If it hits the plate, maybe. But chances are no.

15 If no FOV shifting functions exist, reduce ballistics to the percieved distance rather than 'actual'. Would put it at the 55% level or so.

The fix for this is simple a shouldered/aimed zoom al la Beppo's mutator or something similar.

16 Some weapons should be inherently inaccurate, even at 'close' ranges. P90 in particular. Many rounds become quite a bit more ineffective when subsonic.

Cone Fire!

The P90 is not all that inacurate in it's intended application that is as a fully auto weapon. It's inherent inaccuracies are made up in controlabilty.

The real culprits here are the pistols. They are far to accurate IMHO.

 

[Beppo]

I'd pretty much agree with yurch on everything. Overall i think what INF really needs is "simplification". At least on the user end. The avatar should feel to the player as an extension of their own body. Going from a kneeling position to a full upright sprint, back to a kneeling position shouldn't be as complicated as opreating a manual transmition. Controls need to be streamlined so they feel intuitive to a stranger to the game.

This makes TWO key presses...
a) press and hold your sprint key... this gets you automatically into the sprint, no matter if you are lying prone or kneel down. The player will stand up first if needed.
b) release the sprint key and hit your 'toggle duck/kneel' key once or hold your 'hold duck/kneel' key.

that's by far not complicated...

 

[-RoMe-infers]

my wishlist:

Movement:
1. Walk/jog.. double tap forward key for sprinting. When sprinting you should not be able to strafe and can only go forward. (not the case in 2.9).
2. Ladder system ala RavenShield.
3. Strafing should be a bit slower. It would avoid the "strafe and spray" wich is not natural.
4.the camera bobs too much. In real life we are used to and dont notice it even when sprinting. In a realistic game then, the bobbing view should be present but minimal.

Aim/Wounds:
1. Hipped and aimed is a good system to me. Maybe the ironsight shoud be closer to the "eye" as it would give a better view of what you aim. And please, no zoom!
2. I leave ballistic to profesionnals.
3. Slight weapon inertia.
4. When shot, you cannot shoot back during at least 1 or 2 second (because you're hurt!), meaning that the first to hit is most of the time the winner.
5. Sniping only when crouched or proned, or when the weapon is stabled on something.
6. Local damage, you dont die by being shot in feet, even 100 times.
7. When shot in legs several times,you fall down. Then you loose the ability to sprint and jog.
8. When shot in arms several times, your precision is worse (but still playable, it's a game!).
9. Ability to heal people (only legs:can jog again normally, and arms:aim normal again) when medikit is in the loadout.
10.A big ASSSHOOOTS sounds when shot in the ass..... hum, no actually.

Equipments:
1. Flashbangs (not effective in outdoor area) making vision blurry and hearing loss.
2. HE with less range damage.
3. Binoculars.
4. Nightvision.

Coms:
1. Voicecom.
2. A few hand signals is a really good idea.
3. Ability to talk just to the person you are aiming at, if close enough, by pressing a key...yes i'm dreaming .
4. Ability to talk to everybody on the map, no matter the team, by pressing a special key ( for afk and such things).

Cool stuff:
1. Player's name and clan/team insignia on camo.
2. Viewable equipment (nades, weapons) on the avatar.
3. Vehicles? hum i'm not sure...
4. Vietcong variable crouch.
5. Yurch's prone system.


Not cool stuff IMHO:
1. Weapon jamming (again, its a game!).
2. Commander feature ( must be inherent to players maturity, not imposed). At least as a mutators to see if it works.
3. one frag = one point.

ok enough. I know that a lot of features upthere are already implemented... Just to show that SS do great job. maybe more news?

 

[Psychomorph]

http://forums.beyondunreal.com/showthread.php?p=1467947#post1467947

8D >8O >:9)

 

[Beppo]

only replying to one or two points on your list cause it is already discussed on the other thread (and other places too on this forum ):

Movement:
1. Walk/jog.. double tap forward key for sprinting. When sprinting you should not be able to strafe and can only go forward. (not the case in 2.9).
Aim/Wounds:
3. Slight weapon inertia.
4. When shot, you cannot shoot back during at least 1 or 2 second (because you're hurt!), meaning that the first to hit is most of the time the winner.
6. Local damage, you dont die by being shot in feet, even 100 times.
Coms:
1. Voicecom.
2. A few hand signals is a really good idea.
3. Ability to talk just to the person you are aiming at, if close enough, by pressing a key...yes i'm dreaming .
4. Ability to talk to everybody on the map, no matter the team, by pressing a special key ( for afk and such things).

Mov. 1. double tap is discussed more in the other thread including reasons why not really usefull. The sprint plus strafe ONLY moves you a bit to the left and right... you can do the same with the mouse but the strafe keys are easier to use for certain situations. You do not strafe-sprint or whatever.
Aim/Wounds 3. slight inertia is included for heavy weapons.. almost not noticeable. If we would tune it more in then you would hate it most times, well at least it was too much annoying during the testing.
4. you can... it highly depends on where you were hit of course. This needs locational damage to work best.
6. you die if 100 shots are fired into your feet... they were not there anymore and you would die due to heavy blood loss I guess. Reason for getting 'damaged' in INF is simply the fact that each wound makes the soldier a bit more 'unable' to take part in a battle. So no matter where you are hit... it hurts you. Again, locational damage needed if this system should become changed.
Coms... UT2k4 features a nice VoiceCom system with a locational channel that can be used to simulate you speaking with a guy next to you. If you speak up loud then everyone within a specific radius around you would be able to hear you. So even the enemy ... all in all a very nice voice system that UT2k4 has... if the folks would use it ... a standard say to all folks should always be in place too of course.

5. Yurch's prone system.

Can someone tell me what this is? Thx.

 

[yurch]

In addition to this it isn't possible for INF to simulate very small (less that one pixel) changes in sight alignment.

It's not? Since when are the weapon positions themselves based on pixels?

The P90 is not all that inacurate in it's intended application that is as a fully auto weapon. It's inherent inaccuracies are made up in controlabilty.

The real culprits here are the pistols. They are far to accurate IMHO.

What I'm referring to there is that the 5.7mm 32 grain AP needlebullets that thing fires have a tendancy to scatter every which way in midair to a greater extent than even most pistol ammunition... not even counting brush effects or ricochets there. Controllable recoil or not, that's not a gun I want someone supporting me with.

Pistols for the most part are 'inaccurate' also because of thier short sighting system and lack of a stock. That should be reflected by the vection handling before the individual ammunition accuracy comes into play.

 

[OICW]

Pistol sight-misalignment should be magnified more than other weapons IMO. In RL (according to FM 3.23-35 for M9 and M11 pistol training), a 1/10 inch error in aligning sights leads to the bullet impact being 15 inches off at 25m.

Obviously for Inf we wouldn't quite need to be as detailed, but the general idea still stands.

 

[yurch]

Pistol sight-misalignment should be magnified more than other weapons IMO.

There's no reason to 'magnify' it, that error comes naturally from having the sights so close together on a short barrel.

 

[jayhova]

It's not? Since when are the weapon positions themselves based on pixels?

Maybe I should rephrase that. I should have said that it would not possible to accuratly represent the missalingments that occur with pistols due to the limitations of pixel based technology. Is that better?

What I'm referring to there is that the 5.7mm 32 grain AP needlebullets that thing fires have a tendancy to scatter every which way in midair to a greater extent than even most pistol ammunition... not even counting brush effects or ricochets there. Controllable recoil or not, that's not a gun I want someone supporting me with.

The P90 is not a good long range weapon. I agree. The inaccuacies you speak of are I belive due to the much lower crosssectional density of the round (the same thing that lowers the impulse from the round making it easier to fire in full auto). The lower ratio of bullet density to air density will cause the round to tend to steer in the direction that it is pointed. This effect gets progressively worse over time as the bullet loses it's spin stability. This produces a more trumpet shaped flight pattern and less of a cone. This happens with all bullets to some extent it's just much more pronounced with the SS190. However the round should be fine if used within 150m.

Pistols for the most part are 'inaccurate' also because of thier short sighting system and lack of a stock. That should be reflected by the vection handling before the individual ammunition accuracy comes into play.

I agree. The question I have is, how well will the engine reflect small changes in vector? I tend to picture aiming as being somewhat similar to dropping a pingpong ball in a cone. The aim is somewhat wild at first but then settles down over time until you reach the limits of the accuracy of the weapon which as you say is goverened by the leanth of the sight system and the inherent inaccuracy of an unsupported weapon. I'd like to point out that because pistols are unsupported they have a much greater angle of muzzle climb and twist this along with the motion of the barrel (as opposed to a fixed barrel as in most rifles) pistols are limited in their accuacy even if you could aim perfectly.

 

[Hurin]

I see the point is such an idea but how would it actually work. How many people that get burned by napalm nades dont run to a pool of water even though they know theyll die shortly. Who would drag a dieing teamate to spawn at the expense of the mission?
There is something you can do though to make this work. Suppose you restructure the clan competitions to make them ongoing events. As in to win you have to be the first clan to complete a certain number of missions. Each clan would then receive a limited number of reinforcements to completete all of thoose missions. This way it would at times be more effective to save a lifenow not loosing a reinforcement that they could use in the next mission.
This would be similiar to the structure of Rainbow six where loosing a man on a mission made him unavailable for firther use.
-Skillz

 

[Hurin]

-RoMe-infers:
4. When shot, you cannot shoot back during at least 1 or 2 second (because you're hurt!), meaning that the first to hit is most of the time the winner.

I cant say i agree, even though it will drastically effect your aim, make it shaky, you should still be able to pull the trigger. So maybe if you are shot increase weapon bob by a certain high amount. This could also apply to severe wounds, the lower your stamina or health the more the weapon should bob in your hand.
-Skillz

 

[yurch]

Maybe I should rephrase that. I should have said that it would not possible to accuratly represent the missalingments that occur with pistols due to the limitations of pixel based technology. Is that better?

First of all, a vection system as described is not merely sight misalignment. There are a finite possible number of rotations in UT for any given axis; All that needs to be done is make the weapon's rotations somewhat independant of the player's rotation. 'Misalignment' is the result of simple observation of these rotations. You aren't changing what is already there.

However the round should be fine if used within 150m.

The 5.7mm round already has a 6 inch spread at 50 meters. I'm not too impressed.

 

[gal-z]

-RoMe-infers:
4. When shot, you cannot shoot back during at least 1 or 2 second (because you're hurt!), meaning that the first to hit is most of the time the winner.

I cant say i agree, even though it will drastically effect your aim, make it shaky, you should still be able to pull the trigger. So maybe if you are shot increase weapon bob by a certain high amount. This could also apply to severe wounds, the lower your stamina or health the more the weapon should bob in your hand.
-Skillz

Greatly increasing weapon bob in some way for 1-2 seconds after getting hit then reducing it to "normal" (considering you're injured, not "healthy normal") does sound like a decently good idea.

 

[Hurin]

I also have this other problem, going back to my increasing weapon bob idea.
Falling, should increase weapon bob, there is no way its possibly to drop 6 feet and still aim just as accuratly as regular. Nonetheless i have had done and done to me this incredible effect, for example someone drops down the stiars while you are looking at them from the hallway, almost all of the time the person dropping lives while the other dies. It does not make sense to be able to drop like that and still aim accuratly right after the drop.