Jamming!!!

[AlmostAlive]

I'm not quite sure how people feel about the word "random" when it comes to weapons and how they handle, but I'm sure this issue will be discussed sometime during development.

Personally, I don't like it. It will depend a lot on how it's implemented, if at all, but I think there are other and better ways to make weapons handle and feel realistic ingame. Jamming would not rank high on my Features-to-add list.

But again, this is just my personal opinion.

 

[Lance201]

Hi there,

when I remember my military time (Germany in the mid 80s)there wer only two reasons for jamming with the HK G3:

1. the mags, in this time there were two types of mags for the G§, the old one, very heavy, made of sheet steel and the newer ones made of aluminiumsheet. The new ones were nice because they were very lightweighted, but they had one major Problem, the lips of the mag (don't know the right english word, I mean the to parts that hold the cartridges in the mag against the pressure of the bottom spring), they were to weak and it could happen the cartridges came out of the mag whilest carrying. So you have to bend the lips a little bit together, but a little bit to much and the system got over the mag and put no cartridge in the chamber... "click" damn!

2. maltraeded cartridges (when the metal of the cartridges was a little little bit twisted.

Jamming with the machinegun (Kind of MG42) was always a problem with the belt... most of the time the reason were twisted metal rings wich connected the cartridgeholders.

So I think jamming can happening in real also with very good handled and very clean weapons, because most of the time you have very little influence on the ammunition

Lance

 

[gal-z]

Some more about jamming, based on experience:
M16 type: Sand and dirt - after crawling a bit in the sand or staying in the desert for a bit while there's at least some wind, there's a very good chance to get sand inside your weapon no matter what you do. That sand causes serious jams with very good chance to happen. Also if you fire a lot the dirt from the burnt gunpowder will start causing jams.
IMI Negev (5.56 standard issue LMG in the IDF): Bad belt (after you crawl or the drum takes hits you are likely to find that problem) - the back part of the bullet's casing isn't properly seated and therefore cannot be extracted and causes a stoppage. Also some were treated badly for too long and therefore have lots of malfunctions - but that's very different from 1 weapon to another, and I supposea brand new weapon will not have this problem.
FN MAG - bad belts as well.
Galil/Glilon and AK - those things simply wouldn't jam. My dad filled an AK with mud, pulled the charging handle twice then fired a full mag with no jam. Galil is also durable, though I hadn't actually tested it. These aren't issued to standard infantry nowadays mostly for weight and somewhat for accuracy reasons.
Tavor - my friend had one for a couple of months, and although he did clean it, he said that even with lots of dirt and oil he experienced 0 jams in 4 months of training.

 

[OICW]

Let's not forget one of the most common causes of stoppages; faulty magazines/dirt in the magazines. Several Afghan mujadheen found out the hard way that even if you have an AK, if you're an idiot who gets dirt in your magazines, you will get a stoppage.

 

[Meplat]

"Stoppages" are relatively uncommon in a well maintained, military weapon. Of course, this being the intarweb, everyone is an expert. Your experiences may vary.

Even poorly maintained weapons, if they are of reasonable quality, and fed decent ammo, are suprisingly free of stoppages. Case in point?

I own a few firearms. One, an 80's vintage Colt AR-15 has not been cleaned in well over 30,000 rounds. It still shoots fine, occasionally belching out an especially filthy case. (and I live where there is LOTS of dust.) This is an intentionally abused firearm (I feed it the cheapest ammo, run long full auto bursts, and use it to test "questionable" magazines.)

I've seen old Browning (M1919's and one M1917) so fouled with residue, dirt, belt dust (from fabric belts) that it fell in chunks. But they still cycled reliably. Browning MG's tend to be known for their ability to work in bad conditions though.

Don't get me going on Kalashnikovs. Keep em reasonibly oiled, and they will pretty much live up to their reputations. The PKM's especially. You just can't kill that bitch with poor maintenance. The one I play with? Mucho cheap 7.62X54 crap ammo run through it. Minimal oiling. I blame superb engineering and a chromium lined bore for it's failure to die.

And the Minimi. The only time I've seen a Minimi puke is when it's fed non mil-spec ammo. Even then, load it into mags (instead of a belt) and it WILL eat em up. It is a FN made unit (not a 249) for those interested. Though that should'nt matter. The guy next to me had a 249, and had'nt cleaned it in a couple years.


Feed em good ammo, occasionally dump the gravel out, and make sure the feed device (Mag or belt)is okay, and they will work. At least in my experience.

 

[5eleven]

Arrrrgh.

I still can't believe no one will listen to me, and I wish this thread would die.

Meplat, will you please confirm that shooter error can cause "malfunctions"?

For example, I own an AR-15 as well. Postban HBAR Competition. I was shooting with a friend, shot probably 100 or so rounds downrange. Let my friend fire it. He held it as though it was made of crepe paper. I was surprised that he didn't drop it or let go as he fired. Second round, extraction malfunction. Got it squared away, fired another round. Next round, same malfunction. He complained immediately about what a piece of crap it was, blah, blah, blah, his "whatever the hell it was" never did that, etc. I did a quick tap and rack and fired off the rest of the mag with no problems.

BTW:

I feed it the cheapest ammo, run long full auto bursts, and use it to test "questionable" magazines

Ever try any Wolf ammo? Maximum crapola. Horribly dirty. Try that crap once, I've had a few malfunctions with that on a couple of different M16's.

 

[Meplat]

5Eleven-

Yep. I shoot Wolf ALL the time. Even run it in the Minimi(Feel free to shudder). Not tremendously accurate but the stuff goes pop. You want NASTY? Old Norinco (Green, with red letters). Left chunks in the bore.

As to shooter induced mals, one word. "Glock". Take a perfect G17, hold it like a posie, and it'll stovepipe. Most blowback handguns will suffer from this "malfunction", and some SMG's as well. Hot ammo can compensate. This is the most commonly heard complaint. "Glocks Jam! " Well, only if you hold it like a flyrod.

I've induced (intentionally) stoppages in an Izzie FAL HB, by holding it loosely, from the hip, as opposed to a "correct" assault hold.

The best user induced mal was the guy who decided to fire his "new" (as in newly transferred) M2 Browning .50.. without setting headspace. It was a full .1" excessive. Made a hell of a boom, bent the feedcover like a bannanna, split the barrel extension, blew the extractor into orbit (well close) and blew the feed pawl a couple hundred meters to the right.. Great designs, meticilous manufacturing, superb metallurgy, all go to hell when the shooter leaves their brain at home.

 

[yurch]

I still can't believe no one will listen to me, and I wish this thread would die.

Well, in yet another ancedote, we have a shotgun (although, admittedly I don't remember which one it was) that won't cycle very reliably if you 'hip' it. Should put some inf manuvers in perspective, eh?

 

[mbs357]

Meplat, will you please confirm that shooter error can cause "malfunctions"?

I'm not Meplat, but I know that this is true, especially with pistols.
It's a bit tricky to generalize it, though.