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Item error analysis

Discussion in 'New Version Suggestions' started by Kueltag, Aug 23, 2008.

  1. Kueltag

    Kueltag New Member

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    Most of them? Come on! I don't have to fire all weapons in a war to suppose that an M2 should be more powerful than a 5.56.

    Just like a rocket launcher without length.
     
  2. verlatt

    verlatt ... or something like that.

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    Heh, Battlefield 2 is balanced - and the effect is horrible, in my opinion. If there were no mods, I wouldn't dare to play that game :rolleyes:. The EA folks drastically lowered the damage of anti-tank smgs just because this class had been given the rocket launchers. This just makes no sense. I mean, you have to empty like a half of a mp5's mag to kill one guy! Ridiculous!
    That said, I think the INF is better for it's unbalanced. All in all, it's always a player that makes the weapon the Mjolnir of guns or boomstick. In other words, balance is a good thing in a games like chess. When it comes to recreating a realistic warfare, it's pointless.
    Kueltag - the M2, maybe it's about distance? IIRC in INF there's something like damage scaling depending on the distance to target?
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2008
  3. Kueltag

    Kueltag New Member

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    Nope. There's a "percentScale" setting in RealTargets.ini maybe that's what you think about. That even affects only trajectory but not power.
     
  4. verlatt

    verlatt ... or something like that.

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    Well... Maybe, I haven't checked that yet, but I believe you.
    So you say that the M2 should have more kick? Or maybe lower the 5.56's damage?
     
  5. Kueltag

    Kueltag New Member

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    No, not kick, damage. If you hit someone with a 5.56 bullet they do 52 or 60 % damage. The G3A3 does 82 %, the M14 DMR 100, the FAL 102, the PSG 150 the M82 and the Robar do 750 %, and these are okay. But the M2HB does 75 %. It should be 10 times more powerful! :eek:
     
  6. verlatt

    verlatt ... or something like that.

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    Sorry if you misunderstood me, I mean damage, of course :).
    Your observations make sense, but look at this problem from the other side; maximally two-three M2 rounds is enough to kill in INF. The rest of weaponry is tad more or less powerful than that - is it so disturbing? Anyway - no one can perfectly tell, which number can perfectly reflect the damage done by a certain pistol/rifle/shotgun/whatever in a real life.
    A little off - top: if my memory doesn't play tricks on me, I think that there was somewhere a mutator that was increasing the M2 damage... I only remember the mut's description: "changes M2HB in one-shot kill weeee!" - or something like that. Anyone has an idea how it's called?
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2008
  7. Snakeye

    Snakeye Mk82HD

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    No idea, but I guess anyone who is able to compile UnrealScript can do this in less than 5 minutes, including the "weeee"..
     
  8. Kueltag

    Kueltag New Member

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    "weeeee" was part of BallisticTweak. But again: aren't the above numbers contradictious? If it takes 2 pieces of 18000 Joule 12.7 mm bullets to kill a soldier shouldn't it take 10 or 20 pieces of 1500 Joule 5.56 mm bullets to kill one?. The damage of the 5.56 is about OK. So?
     
  9. Snakeye

    Snakeye Mk82HD

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    Hmmm, now that you mention it they do really seem contradictious. I wonder why no one saw that before..

    Last time I checked a .50 from both Robar and Barett kill in way less than one rounds. Perhaps the M2HB just needs service? It seems there is a gas leak or perhaps we're using sub-sonic ammo for the supressor that was never implemented?

    On a (more serious) side note: don't take the energy way to judge damage - it's about as incorrect as going with the heaviest bullet; there are a various factors that go into terminal ballistics and energy ist just one of them.

    What led you to this conclusion?
     
  10. verlatt

    verlatt ... or something like that.

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    :lol:

    As for M2 - it's rare on maps and when you finally get to man it - it's a sure frag machine. Now tell me - what would change - I mean in gameplay, not in weapon damage relations - adding in some more power for this gun? I mean, is it really necessary? The 5.56 is all right? Fine! The .50 is somewhat weak? Live with it! :lol:
    I don't care if M2 is - as you suggest - not so effective as it should be, according to the real gun. I bet that for most of the players that just doesn't matter too.
    By the way: where did you get those numbers from (the energy values)? I'm just curious...
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2008
  11. Kueltag

    Kueltag New Member

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    Of course, I know, it has been written down many times here and elsewhere. But I had to describe bullet "power" somehow.

    52 % and 60 %. I'm not saying these should be 1 more or 1 less, but based on reports or complaints that they need 1-4 hits to kill, these might be about OK. But again, the weapons should be OK relative to each other, so if you stipulate that a 5.56 does fiftysomething percent damage a 9x19 couldn't do 200 and a 12.7x99 shouldn't do 75. That's all.
     
  12. Kueltag

    Kueltag New Member

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    I'm a mechanical engineer and if I would neglect this much some parts of what I design my boss would fire me in a very bad way. So, I say, if it's present, it should be well designed. 500% or 1000, I don't know and I wouldn't care, but 75?

    You don't need to find muzzle energies, you can calculate it from bullet mass and muzzle speed:

    kineticenergy = 1/2 x mass x speed^2

    If you use kilogram for mass and m/s for speed, you will get the energy in joule. For any speed and for any body.
     
  13. Snakeye

    Snakeye Mk82HD

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    Well, if you know it's wrong why do it? It's like giving a .50 M2 a damage of 75%.

    Just kidding. The reason I dislike this kind of reasoning is, that it ultimately leads to the conclusion that 3000J is about a kill and therefore you'll need ~10 9x19s to do the job - not that people getting hit by 9 9x19s and surviving never happened, it's just not very likely and IIRC they were combat incapable anyway - which basically is a "kill" in Inf, or at least that's what a Inf kill is IMO.

    God damn those engineers! If at least you were an electric/electronic one. But to put it harshly, you've come to a dead mod to complain about features that won't be fixed because NO ONE actually does work on Inf mods anymore (the odd necrophiliac excluded). So your choices narrow down to either ignore the errors, fix the errors or give up playing inf because you can't do any of the two.

    BTW: Didn't you mention somewhere you just finished high-school? In which country does high school end with an engineering degree (in case I get reborn I want to tick the right one this time)?
     
  14. verlatt

    verlatt ... or something like that.

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    I'm happy to know we have a perfectionist on board, but you have to know one thing too: this is only a game. It seems that you've taken personal this cursed 75, haven't you? And no offence meant, really.
    Ok - I agree that this number may be just insufficient. I wonder what would Beppo say on this though...
    One more thing: there's no need to teach me physics' basics, really :). It's sure hard to imagine, but not only engineers know it :).
     
  15. Kueltag

    Kueltag New Member

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    Okay, slow down guys. I don't want to teach anybody, I don't want to boast, and I never said it needs 3000 joules and nothing else to kill a human. Sorry, if it sounded condescending. Definitely a 12.7x99 is more powerful than a 7.62x51, if not because of kinetic energy than because of color or taste or sound I don't know. A reminder I wrote in the very 1st post: I don't insist anybody doing these, I don't say Inf is bad because of these, many of what I wrote is a mere suggestion or even a note, not a bug report. I won't correct any of these, and I'm generally happy with Inf. Take it as a list of what can (could) be done for it, even if nothing will happen.

    As for my degree: cr*p, it's not high school, it's college.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2008
  16. Snakeye

    Snakeye Mk82HD

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    What? Even more? I'm not even starting to say what would've happened to you in the old forum days, when flaming newbies because of their newbieness was part of Inf boards initiation ceremony - btw.: welcome to the Inf boards ;).

    And I never claimed you said - I merely pointed out the way you used for argumentation will end up having people come to this conclusion.

    Awww, there go my plans for my next life :(. Oh, and you can say crap here, it's okay - if not bypass that swearword filter - it's easy to do, but might get you a week of RO (not that this ever happened).
    See: fuck,fuck,fuck,fuck,fuck,fuck,fuck,fuck..
    I'm still here :D
     
  17. Kueltag

    Kueltag New Member

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    Thanks. :lol:

    I already spent a few more years attending it than it was absolutely necessary, I'm happy it's over.
     
  18. verlatt

    verlatt ... or something like that.

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    Yeah, welcome to forum, Kueltag . No harsh feelings, eh? :)
     
  19. Kueltag

    Kueltag New Member

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    :tup: :tup: :tup: :D
     
  20. chuckus

    chuckus Can't stop the bum rush.

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    A lot of stuff to take in.

    Just wanted to point out that some of the stuff brought up like the double loading of the UDAR or the kick back rate of certain guns is heavily dependant on the individual soldier.

    I wish there was a way of modeling these things in a game but it would just make the game too complex.

    For example, I'm 5'5" and have shorter arms than someone who's 6'. It was more comfortable (and accurate) for me to hold the c7 by the mag housing rather than the foregrip simply because my elbow would have a bend in it where as if I held the foregrip in the middle, my arm was pretty much straight. Also the size of my shoulder affects how the weapon will be seated compared to someone who's bigger and smaller etc. etc.

    weapons handling can be a very personalized thing and so trying to nitpick details in a game trying to lower everything to a lowest common denominator can be kind of a moot point.
     

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