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Item error analysis

Discussion in 'New Version Suggestions' started by Kueltag, Aug 23, 2008.

  1. Kueltag

    Kueltag New Member

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    Here are a few (a lot) errors, suggestions, notes about Infiltration weapons and equipment, based on my tests. I won't write (much) about bulk values, as those are a bit subjective, and can be now customized with CustomBulk. I also won't (I hope) write about modifications which would require changing any of the models. Note that I'm not weapon expert so I can't and won't tell errors relative to the real world. I'm writing this list mainly because everybody around these forums ask for new weapons or even Inf 3.0, but with the community being this small, I doubt much will happen. So: the already present equipment should be perfected instead IMO. As there are no big teams working canon (Sentry Studios, IMT), newer additions fit less and less the older ones and each other. I don't insist anybody of doing these changes. And finally: this wish list is not to make the weapons or the loadouts more powerful.

    First a few general errors, suggestions: there are those animations with the weapons being moved in the hands while in hipped mode as the guy gets bored with himself. These happen way too often. I don't think a soldier would play with his rifle every 10 seconds when nothing happens. It even makes aiming hard(er) in hipped mode. If a grenade runs out, the weapons should change automatically to the next type. Many of the weapons' name appear quite bad on the HUD and in the Drop Ammo menu. More weapons should be able to be selected as Quick Action weapons (though I never use the QA functionality because of my key mapping). Every weapon should generally start in their most CQB-ready setup, i. e. aimed. This applies for both selecting the weapons and reloading them. And generally: slow-to-handle weapons (selecting, reloading, switching mode, etc.) are ugly. And most of the original Inf weapons are quite slow, while many of IMT's weapons' animations can't be interrupted, so you can't do anything else until they finish it. It doesn't seem to be a serious thing, but it's uncool to be killed just because a stupid weapon readying animation can't be interrupted.


    Assault rifles:
    ---------------

    Many assult rifles have the same sound, which is not real (I guess).

    AK-47: The bayonet's power varies greatly with each stab, form about 20 to 90 percent. And with a weapon being this marginally useful, maybe it should kill for the first time, even if it's unreal. Switching between the GP-25 and the rifle should be instantenuous as this is nothing more than just telling the program which trigger will you pull next time (both of your pointer fingers are on triggers). Bots can kill with it from long ranges with just a few shots, visibly much better than with other weapons (-FAL).

    C7: No problems here, I think this is one of the best weapons.

    FAL: It's okay. The great kick-up is well balanced with the great power. Bots still kill with it in no time from great distances.

    FAMAS: Nothing serious, but the mag change is a bit slow, and a close range aiming when the scope is attached would be nice with this weapon as well.

    G36K: Oh well, the good old G36K. Close range aiming is still a problem. Maybe an extraordinary solution is required here. If done (properly), the weapons damage should be lowered from 60 % to 52 % as it has a very short barrel.

    G3A3: Power up! Total damage in 1 mag: M4A1: 30 x 52% = 1560%, M16A4: 30 x 60% = 1800%, FAL: 20 x 102% = 2040%, and for the G3: 20 x 82% = 1640%. This with a slow magchange and a high kick-up? Oh no.

    HK416: The grenade launcher behaves a bit strange for me. It's got the 9 inch barrel with a shorter range, that's okay, but it's still strange. It won't load the 1st round in to grenade launcher if only M583A1 is present.

    M16A2: Good. Maybe a short range aiming for the scope. It won't load the 1st round in to grenade launcher if only M433 is present.

    M16A4: Maybe it's just my computer (far from fast), but looking into and lowering the infrared scope takes about 1 second, both in infrared and visible mode. Also the two M16s contradict each other, as the A2 is one of the fastest to handle (prepare, reload) while the A4 is much slower.

    M4A1: Without the M4A1 Improvements mutator it was one of the worst assault rifles: slow, weak, and high kick-up. Now it's much better.

    OICW: Not important at all, but the OICW should be separated from the assault rifles in the loadout screen. It would fit better among the sniper rifles, explosive projectors, or even better in a new category. Switching to/from scope in IR mode is slow (on my computer). Close combat view would be good. Usually the grenades won't explode when they hit a monster in PDD mode. Kick-up for the 5.56 round is a bit bigger than with similar assault rifles, which makes the 2 round burst useless beyond 20 meters.

    RO979: Great work Snakeye, but it should give more advantages over the M4. In fact, I don't use the M4 Improvement mutator to give the RO979 a chance.

    Sig551: It doesn't have that much short barrel, maybe its power could go up from 52 to 60, and a close range view with the scope would be cool here too (the laser can't provide it). Otherwise, it's very good.

    XM8: The view is obstructed very much, and the transition time between normal view and max magnification is way too long. No need for it at all. Also, IR when the weapon is aimed but without looking into the scope is missing.

    ...
     
  2. Kueltag

    Kueltag New Member

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    ...

    Submachineguns:
    ---------------

    As assault rifles are generally better than SMGs, the weapon changing and reload of the latter could be speeded up to the maximum believable (like that of the MP5A2). With slightly lighter than real weapons allowing about 50 % more rounds for them than with assault rifles, they might come back. They would then also substitute pistols as emergency weapons, which is beneficial against monsters.

    AKMSU: This is much more an assault rifle than an SMG. It could be weaker (see my Inf-Info file) and then the kick-up could be lowered.

    MicroUzi: Oh no, this is maybe the worst weapon of all. It's so damn slow, that it's dangerous to use. The 32 round mag should be compatible with that of the MiniUzi. (Yes, TrueScale fixes it, but I don't use it because of its gravity setting.) The 32-round mag should be the default, so when both types are present, it should start with a 32-round one.

    MiniUzi: Mag compatibility needed. It's interesting that this weapon is a bit more powerful against armor vests than the other 5 9x19 mm weapons, maybe it's because of a longer barrell. I guess it's okay.

    MP5A2: Good. A bit weak, but very precise and very fast to use. The mag should be compatible with the MP5K. If the weapon preparing animation could be interrupted, this weapon alltogether would be insanely quick.

    MP5A3: Shouldn't the .40 S&W do more damage against unarmored targets than the 9x19 mm? Switching to aimed right after the weapon is swithced to should be faster: it waits hipped a bit, making effective weapon change time longer.

    MP5K: Does it have a balancing reason that this is as powerful as the MP5A3? Magchange is a bit slow, but fair. Mag compatibility with the A2.

    P90: Slow. Not RoF, but switching and reloading. It's not that good, that it should be this slow for balancing.


    Shotguns:
    ---------

    The same here than with submachineguns. Speed these up, allow more ammo, and they might be present again.

    M1S90: Switching to aimed after weapon is changed to the M1 is slow.

    M3S90: Why does this start in pump mode? Because noone would use this mode otherwise? Maybe, but it's uncool. The 8x8 mm buckshot rounds should work with this one as well, especially because of ammo compatibility (which is maybe not that much necessary). And it should call itself M3S90 on the HUD, not M1S90.

    MAG-7: Mag change is fast, but RoF is slow. It's realistic, but it's sad. Maybe the spread could be lowered or the pumping made faster to make it more effective, and then the bulk could be increased towards the realistic values (see Inf-Info).


    Handguns:
    ---------

    DE.357: If you empty the mag, switch away, then back to the 357, reload is slow as hell. It's corrected at the DE.50.

    DE.50: Nothing wrong, this is one of the best behaving weapons.

    Five-seveN: Reload should be faster.

    M1911: No movement in the hand, which is a good but IMO it's an insufficient balancing feature because of being one of the worst pistols. The old sound (before IWE) was better.

    M92F: A pistol without errors.

    M93R: This big kick-up might be real, but could be lowered, especially since the mag's bulk is 2. Right now I'm not sure if the burst mode is better than the semi.

    Mk.23: Somewhy I don't feel this pistol that powerful, especially against humans/bots. Maybe the reloading is done by a pensioner, it's that slow. The LAM should start in flashlight mode.

    P22: An unfinished pistol. Note that armor vests don't weaken its damage so it's not that bad.

    UDAR: The sound is the main problem here. And it should start with 2 rounds not 1 when reloading. Or, I guess this is not 20 minutes to do, but it could load a bit faster as many rounds as there remained in the weapon.

    ...
     
  3. Kueltag

    Kueltag New Member

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    ...

    Machine guns:
    -------------

    Minimi: Here again, aiming this weapon directly after switching to it is very slow. Reload takes so long (with the ammo can) that it should be able to be interrupted, even if the guy has to restart the whole reloading process after switched back to the Minimi. But continuing the reload process while being attacked just looks and is very stupid. I think the weapon comes up too fast when a 30 round mag is in it. Good for you, but not real.

    M60: That hand trembling looks bad, even if it's reasonable based on the M82. Also either all or none of the weapons should jam. The same is true here about the reloading process than with the Minimi.

    M2HB: This heavy machine gun is weaker (I mean damage x RoF) than the M60, and not just by a little. I don't use the M2HB Aim View mutator, because it blocks a lot of the movement. Go to Middle of Nowhere (no, I meant the map) and move the M2 around with and without the Aim View mutator. You will see what I mean.


    Sniper and destroyer rifles:
    ----------------------------

    M82A1: The King is fair, but when I crouch and aim the weapon without the scope, the 1st shot is fired after some pause. It should be able to fire sooner. The trembling of the arms should come up slower if at all based on the bulk of the RC50. This is modeling already, and would be an uber-weapon, so it's just a wondering, but imagine this weapon without a scope and bipod. It would be lighter (around 30) so you could fire it standing. Also with a realistic (much higher) rate of fire, it would make a huge massacre. Or: imagine it being even more powerful with the Raufoss round.

    RC50: Good. A close range view is not required that much this time, first because this weapons scope has such a big field of view, second because being a bolt action rifle it's hopeless in terms of repeating fire at close range.

    PSG1: Give it a good close range view, and you got a new ace in CQB. Based on other weapons (G3, FAL, RC50, M82) the kick-up of this weapon should be about doubled.

    M14DMR: This weapon is the ugliest to handle. It's slow and it can't stop the animations, so if you press the next weapon button before it comes to a complete halt, it won't change weapon, but because it registers the button press, if you press it again, it will change to the 2nd after the M14.

    Vintorez: Not good for sniping, not good for its own self defense. The 20 round mag wouldn't help much either. I don't know what could be done here. Maybe an unrealistically powerful bullet would make it more valuable.


    Charges and explosive projectors:
    ---------------------------------

    AN-M8: Fair.

    M18A1 Claymore: Ah yes, the much debated, beloved, and hated Claymore. Slow, nasty, and powerful. I don't really dare to say anything here. Except for... what about an auto destruct time? Like 60 seconds or so after laying it it would auto destruct.

    Door Breaching Charge: Seems good for it's purpose, which purpose might be widened.

    Eightball: Big and ugly. It's interesting that this is an awsome weapon (apart from it's bulk which I promised not to mention) against humans, but near useless against monsters. It's power is similar to firing an FAL at 1 round per second in semiauto. It should go down while bandaging. I could list tonns of things here what could be done, like dropping empty boxes, locking on much faster, flying faster, giving kick-up, and so on, but not much point would be in it.

    HK69A1: The ladder's texture looks bad on my computer, it's pulsating or what. Iron sights are discussed elsewhere recently, it would make the M576 much more useful. I compared the data in Inf-Info, and I found the HK69 a bit worse than the other grenade launcher weapons, though the differences are minimal. A faster weapon switching time would bring this weapon back among the others. It won't load the 1st round if only M576 is present. And its kick-up is 0.

    M136 AT4: Heavy, and not-that-powerful. It would need a higher speed, a longer range, a better looking and sounding explosion (hint: shot-down Redeemer missile), and better optics. With all these it still would be an overbulked weapon. Or what. Oh, yes, and it doesn't have length: you don't bump into the walls with it aimed.

    M18 colored smoke grenade: Good, maybe the possebility to throw and to extinguish it would be nice.

    M67: The only hand grenade we have, and it's really good. That unpredictable fuse is tricky, but real of course. When a grenade is thrown, and a weapon switching button is pressed right after it, the next grenade shouldn't come up, instead the weapon change should be performed instantly.

    M7290 flash-bang: Me playing offline found it useless, so I made a sort of (fictious) thermobaric hand grenade of it with the following data in the ini file: 350, 700, 500. It's fairly better than the M67 being much more powerful but also much more self dangerous. Try it out against groups of bots!

    M83: As it was too similar to the AN-M8, I made it into a (fictious) rapid effect smoke grenade with the following data in the ini: 50, 0.4, 0.4, 1, 0.6, 50, 30.


    Other:
    ------

    KaBar: Make it a throwable light saber, than it will be good. Btw. why is this always present in the loadouts?

    Binocs: The guy should see just 1 circle, not 2.

    Night vision system: Okay, but the transition is slow again.

    Armor vests: There's not much difference between the two.

    Kevlar helmet: Many people say it's not worth the bulk points, but of course not much could be done here.

    Other headgear, balaclava: Nothing special.

    Bandage: The rules of using it is quite good, though it's not in synchron with BotHealer. If you initiate a bandaging while a weapon reload is in process, it won't do the bandaging, not even after the reloading is finished. You won't be able to do any bandaging after this happens, only if you... I forgot, maybe you change weapon. Then you can do bandaging. It looks like a ban but I rather think it's a bug.

    **********

    So the nicest behaving weapons are: C7, Sig551, DE.50, M92F, MP5A2, RC50.

    One advice if someone starts to think that he/she tries and fixes some of the above: make each function switchable in an ini file, as there are many cool multifunction mutators around (IBT, Magcheck, RA, TrueScale) which I (and maybe others) don't use, because there's 1 function in them which I don't want to use but can't disable.

    Over and out.
     
  4. [5thSFG]Mitchell

    [5thSFG]Mitchell unexpected guest

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    concerning the AKMSU, it's inside the "SMG" weapons because size and accuracy are very similar to other submachineguns: fair for me.

    Finally, I agree some weapons are realoaded somewhat slow. :)
     
  5. Kueltag

    Kueltag New Member

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    Damage for 1 shot: SMGs: from 20 to 25, ARs: 35 to 68, AKMSU: 35. Kick-up per shot: SMGs: from 120 to 300, ARs: from 175 to 450, AKMSU: 350. RoF: SMGs: from 750 to 1700, ARs: from 460 to 780, AKMSU: 580. Bulk: SMGs: from 7 to 13, ARs: from 14 to 22, AKMSU: 14. RL mass (kg): SMGs: from 2.05 to 2.85, ARs: 2.9 to 4.45, AKMSU: 2.8. Protruding (distance to the end of the barrel when held at eye): SMGs: most configs between 4.7 and 7.5 (with some MP5A3 variants a bit longer), ARs: from 6.5 to 10.4, AKMSU: 7.7.
     
  6. Snakeye

    Snakeye Mk82HD

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    The RO979 [in real life] is a M4 with three round burst trigger group instead of the M4A1s full auto one. The only other significant difference [in the mutator] is the 40mm HEI instead of the parachute flare - but that's a design decision; I like the incendiary, even if it might not be modeled true to life.

    Otherwise I'm not a fan of balancing in any way, so I doubt I'll ever make the RO979 do something a M4A1 (improved) can't do - if you don't see any advantage in a 3 round burst you can stick to the regular M4A1. Weapons balance each other out of you make them as true to life as possible; most guns in Inf have their advantages and disadvantages - and the worst ones are those that have been balanced.

    G3A3 in Inf for example is IMO basically a 5.56 AR with a tad more punch and recoil but with 20rd mag. FAL has a kick that's beyond anything plausible - I mean those things can be fired in full auto with "decent" accuracy at closer ranges in real life; in Inf anything beyond point-blank is too far for the FAL to fire in full-auto or even fast semi-auto, altough the latter has to be partly attributed to the way the sights are implemented. And don't get me started about Ma Deuce - a .50 machine gun IS supposed to do heavy damage; perhaps they would be used more if they did.

    But the point is every implementation of weapons in a game will have it's faults - learn to live with it or learn how to change it.

    BTW: What the hell is the Eightball doing in here? That only made Inf as an example how to make a weapon mutator IIRC.
     
  7. Kueltag

    Kueltag New Member

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    Nothing is wrong with the RO979.

    In RL, there are worse and better weapons, so if they weren't balanced out, noone would use certain weapons.

    What do you mean 5.56? If it's 7.62, than it should have capabilities according to that.

    Yes, the FAL is hard to handle (kick-up is generally way too big in Inf), but if it had such a power and a usual kick-up, why would anybody use anything else?

    That's what I said, it should be much more powerful.

    It's present in the game, you can use it.
     
  8. Snakeye

    Snakeye Mk82HD

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    There are better and worse weapons depending on situation and personal preference. I never got used to the G36k - and I've tried as few times. In my opinion it's a gun I'd never use, for me it could be left out of Inf and I wouldn't even notice - but there are quite a few who use it a lot and to good effect. Same with Robar and M82 - I'm no fan of sniping in Inf and I'm no fan of .50 sniper rifles in general, but there are people who use both of them a lot.

    The opposite seems true with the FAL. A lot of people hate it with passion and would never use it; despite it's shortcomings I use it a lot, and quite effectively at times, if I may say so. Point is guns aren't balanced, all have their strong and weak points - and yet there will never be a single best weapon.

    I meant the G3A3s behavior. I don't like the G3A3a appearance (and I'm not too fond of H&K in general) so I came to try it way after I spent a lot of time with the FAL. In Inf the G3A3 feels like a 5.56 assault rifle, both in recoil and power - it doesn't feel like the 7.62 it should be - so I guess we both agree on its wrong implementation in Inf. My point was, that it's wrong because of an attempt of balancing; the attempt to balance it ended up in having a sub-par weapon (as happened with the FAL, though not to that extend) instead of the excellent weapon a battle rifle should be at anything beyond CQB (and total ammo carried ;)).

    I'm not talking "usual" kick but correct kick. Why use anyting else? Lenght? Ammo capacity? Personal preference? I'm pretty sure you CAN find a technically single best weapon in Inf if you chose the numbers you need right (M16A4 might be a good bet) yet I see many different loadouts on servers - indicating that there isn't.

    If I was to get the doll bombs from U4E into Inf they would be technically present and could be technically used. Yet you wouldn't find them on any server (I hope..) because they're against anything that Inf should be (IMO). The Eightball is different to this example only because it wasn't even intended to be used, but rather as example by SentryStudios on how to implement custom weapons.

    You mentioned it should have more advantages over the regular M4A1 - that made it sound like it is at least slightly flawed (don't worry, I'm not taking aything personal :D). I just wanted to point out it was never my intention to give it any advantages or disadvantages compared to the M4A1 - wether or not you find a burst instead of auto an improvement, a deterioration or neither is personal preference.

    You've gone a long way in analyzing everything and ended up with a result that I partly agree and partly disagree - just like most other people I suppose. Just don't make the mistake of assuming that the points that you find flawed actually are [from an "objective" point of view] flawed.
     
  9. Kueltag

    Kueltag New Member

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    Some of them are subjective of course, but there are (maybe most of them) really "objective" errors, like M3 calling itself M1, or UDAR starting reload with 1 round.

    I would like to solve a huge part of these, but I just finished high school, so I don't think I will go deeper with Inf. As I wrote at the start, these are nothing more than just thoughts, so if some1 has the time and the ability, it's a list what he/she could think about.
     
  10. Snakeye

    Snakeye Mk82HD

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    Perhaps it's mainly my position that objective isn't in a world filled with subjects, but I'd rather see it the other way rounds - especially after reading your points again. The most objective point actually IS the Benelli with the wrong name displayed on the HUD.

    But come on, UDAR starts reloading with one round instead of two is obejctive? Is it impossible to start reloading it with one round - since it's a five shooter anyway? Is it against standard operating procedure (good luck finding one..)? Would it make more sense [to start loading two rounds]? Probably. Does that make it an objective error? No.

    Most other points cover one of these three: kick, damage done, handling. Unless you have done extensive tests using real weapons and people 1 and 3 are not even close to objective - and don't get me started on damage; terminal ballistics is a field where even experts don't agree on how things work.

    If we take a further look at kick - what would be the most objective way of implementing it? Make an exact physical model of the gun [note: exact models do usually not completely reflect reality]. But exact is a tad hard to do so you'll end up having a somewhat exact model - until you have to run it in realtime, which is the point where you end up having a as good as it gets model. Also two guns that produce the same momentum - that's what is usually considered recoil - do not necessarily have the same recoil behavior. So you WILL end up having to subjectively decide which kick is the right one - and at that point you'll find a sufficiently large number of people disagreeing.

    What you have to consider in addition is the limits of the game engine. Yes, abortable animations would be nice - yes they'd saved my [virtual] life more than once. But do you really think the development team didn't consider it? Point is, that you'll end up having far more options to consider if you make animations abortable - and that results in far more things that can cause errors.

    Don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to "bash" you or belittle your work. You've spent more time thinking about Inf that most other people recently, but that doesn't convince me you've ended up with the right solution - especially since I don't believe there's a right solution anyway.
     
  11. Kueltag

    Kueltag New Member

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    About the UDAR: I'm not speaking of operational procedures, I'm talking about common sense: if in RL someone could be attacked any moment and get killed in a 1 second firefight, he would want his empty weapon to regain operability ASAP, so he will put in as many rounds as possible as soon as possible.

    About abortable animations: I put weapon changes on my mouses wheel and when I quickly change weapons (3 or more times a second) in a Microbulk loadout where half a dozen or a dozen weapons are present, with some of them I have to wait for the animation to stop, with others not, so aborting IS possible.

    And one important word I mistakenly didn't mention so far: contradiction. In almost all of the above issues. I could almost always said at each of them: if we had only 5 weapons in Inf, this behaviour or property would be all right, but as we have about 40, it does not fit the others. As I wrote at the introduction: newer, individual additions made them non-canon. Only the M60 can jam? All or non of the weapons should. It's a cool feature for this weapon, but it's a contradiction. If the current state of Inf would be a game produced by a big, "official" software manufacturer, a QA guy would say for the developers: "Are you nuts? We will have 40 weapons and 1 of them can jam the others not?"
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2008
  12. Snakeye

    Snakeye Mk82HD

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    I'm with you on this point - it is against what my senses say (I'm not even pretending I have any common sense or knew what common sense was ;)), but that makes it a subjective error, not an objective one. What in addition makes this example a bad one is, that in real life you never ever go out with just a UDAR and never ever go out alone; obvious exceptions excluded - as I've read of snipers going out alone if circumstances dictate, but they didn't take a UDAR. So you would have buddies watching your back while you reload - and if I was one of them I'd probably tell you at every round you put in what a stupid idea it was to bring that UDAR :D.

    You CAN abort reload anims? No, that's a serious question from my side, because if some weapons can please tell me which and they'll be the only one I'll use (well, except they're DEs..). If not please be more specific which weapons can abort which animations. If it's just the bring-up-animation then the main culprit for slow change in weapon pack weapons is the saftey anim, which sometimes is barely distinguishable from normal bring up.

    That's because Inf is a total conversion with mods added from people who weren't part of the initial development team - and if Inf was done by a big software company I really hope they find these flaws BEFORE the QA guy gets a build. IF you really want to go the contradiction way, then I'd suggest the first and worst error present in Inf is the availability of the Eightball mutator, followed by UDAR, MAG7, DE and other non-military issue weapons; and the DE clearly was present in the original Inf2.9 release.

    You could also add that the sights implemented for the weapon pack MP5 (and Bonus pack MP5k) are wrong compared to the (wrong) sights on the Inf2.9 MP5; from a contradiction point of view you might say the newer ones are wrong, from an "objective" point of view the MP5/40 is wrong - one that didn't make your list if I may observe this.

    Concerning the jamming: there were numerous discussions about jamming in the old days pre-2.9 days and SentryStudios always said they don't want a game being decided by luck. It was implemented for the M60 out of (once again) balancing reasons and because the M60 is somewhat famous for being not too reliable (well, early models). Did I ever say I don't like balancing?

    But the more you write and detail your point of view (which I agree on many points, as I may state again) the more it should be apparent to yourself that this list IS 90% (value pulled out of thin air) subjective. There is NO official canon for Inf, just what people think the Inf spirit is supposed to be - and depending on whom you ask TDM wouldn't be in Inf.
     
  13. [5thSFG]Mitchell

    [5thSFG]Mitchell unexpected guest

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    I don't understand a thing of that, but IRL the AKMSU fires the very same round of the AK-47, which is the 7.62x39.
    Accuracy changes according to rifle, but the power remains the same.
    IRL

    If the game acts differently, it's beyond me :p
     
  14. Kueltag

    Kueltag New Member

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    If you go out alone with a single UDAR or not, it's still illogical. Why would you slow yourself down just because there are buddies around? You got just 1 life.

    Not reload, weapon select. Maybe that's not an anim, in this case sorry for the wrong word. In one of my loadouts I have the 3 MP5s, and I can't switch through the A2 as fast as the A3 and the K, I usually have to wait for the weapon to come up and stop until I can switch further. Same for the M14DMR or the Vintorez, which are even slower. Maybe there's more.

    True, but if you say this is just a group of mods, so anybody can do anything what we have to accept, than you also accept that there ARE contradictions, or inconsistencies.

    I never saw the older ones, nor the RL weapons.

    But it's still a contradiction as other weapons don't jam.

    It almost seemed for me :lol: but in fact, my point of view is not far from yours. But balancing is present in Inf everywhere, just think of the bulk system, the build-up of the maps, the point system, anything. In the original Unreal Tournament '98 all of the weapons were very similar in performance, but without any balancing certain weapons can be so bad, that they would almost go non-used. I read an old thread where someone complained that only assault rifles remained used in the game, nobody uses SMGs and shotties any more. I usually play with some of the weapons only for diversity. Of course I don't want a "total balancing". There should be a way where each weapon has its character but not so good that it would be considered cheating to use it nor so bad that it would be ignored.

    What I want (what I'm dreaming about) is a better set of weapons, a better Inf. Many things I wrote down ARE subjective. But listing the objective errors would not be that short: names too long, grenade launchers not loading 1st grenades, PDD not working properly, missing IR for the XM8, mag compatibility, name for M3S90, M2HB having the power of a 5.56, no length for the M136, bandage not working. And I can't say calling it an inconsistency that only the M60 can jam is subjective. In this case the bulk of a pistol could be 60, as determining bulk is subjective.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2008
  15. Kueltag

    Kueltag New Member

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    What I wrote is that the AKMSU fits among the assault rifles more than among the SMGs in very many aspects. I guess a weapon should be classified based on what it does, and not based on what's it developed from or looks like.
     
  16. Snakeye

    Snakeye Mk82HD

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    *shudders* "power" (I assume you mean the ability to deal damage) can change between different weapons of the same caliber and sure will do so if the barrel lengths are significantly different - as is the case with AKM and AKMSU. This is even more significant with weapons chambered for the 5.56x45 since the bullets that do fragment, do this depending on impact speed. While neither 7.62x39 nor 5.45x39 fragment reliably a bullet fired from a longer barrel will end up having more speed and thus more energy - and energy is the ability to cause damage (along with a multitude of other factors that determine how much damage will be done..)

    Technically you don't slow yourself down, since your reload will consist of three steps anyway, no matter if you start or end by loading the single round. And if you have your buddies to watch your back you should be able to make a complete reload.

    Weapon select animations are inconsistent because the INFMOD weapons do add a safety animation (safety off at bring up and safety on at bring down); the time these animations take vary from weapon to weapon - as different weapons usually have different safety systems. Wether or not this is accurately portraied or even makes sense is an entirely different question - I always wondered if you'd really put on the safety on an empty weapon to grab your sidearm in a desparate situation?

    Yes and no. Yes letting people add new weapons via mutators will add inconsistencies - No we don't have to accept it, since there's no obligation to use a mutator.

    You didn't notice that the rear sights on the MP5/40 look different than those on the MP5k and MP5A2?

    You could add some more - just from the top of my head: MP5/40 rear sights wrong, M16A2 with M203 uses wrong front grip, SIG551 mag model is the 20rd not the 30rd one..

    And yes, if you were to make a pistol for Inf you could decide it had a 60 bulk - but I wouldn't expect anyone using it then.
     
  17. verlatt

    verlatt ... or something like that.

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    Compare this with that ... I don't know if they're reliable sources, but the differences in gun's classification is somewhat confusing :lol:. Anyway, the Russians call it "spec vintovka" - what can be roughly translated as "specialized carbine". AK-47.net (as in the link) describes it as "shot barreled rifle".
    But yeah, I think I agree with you - the gun's mainly used at short distances, it's swift and handy so it has what it takes to be the smg. Its rate of fire is rather closer to the rifle's than smg's though.
    And before someone points that out - I know I've pasted the links regarding to AKS-74U, but they use the same rounds as AKMSU (but can also be 7.62 x 39), eh? Correct me if I'm wrong though. BTW - Polish version -Onyks is 5.45.
    From the asylum of dark, mossy office - verlatt ;).
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2008
  18. Kueltag

    Kueltag New Member

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    But if you load 4 rounds in 2 steps you gain the ability to fight sooner than if you load 3. As I said, you want to regain firepower ASAP weather or not there are buddies around for the case you don't have time to complete the reload. Who's to guarantee you will be let to finish your reload? That's why it's illogical to start slow with it.

    I don't know the RL weapons, so I didn't consider it an error.

    The same here.

    That's why we need some balancing, or in other words, to suppress inconsistencies.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2008
  19. Kueltag

    Kueltag New Member

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    I used each of the SMGs among the same circumstances (same map, enemies, their loadouts), and at the end I tried the AKMSU. I found it really different. Not very much, but it had such a low RoF, was powerful, and fragged so much sooner in a firefight than any SMGs. Than I tried all the assault rifles among the same circumstances, and found that tough the AKMSU is one of the slowest among them with one of the highest kick-up, it's no weaker in stopping power. So all together I'd say the AKMSU is almost perfectly on the border of SMGs and ARs, but if I had to decide which of them it should belong to, I'd choose the assault rifles. Even if there's a bigger variant of it among them. (Also: M93R: just under the border of pistols and SMGs, MicroUzi with 20 rd mag: just above it.)
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2008
  20. Snakeye

    Snakeye Mk82HD

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    It's actually not any more illogical than ejecting the full rounds if you only loaded one or three and didn't fire in-between or bringing a UDAR to begin with.

    See, that's one of the main problem I have with some of your suggestions: you don't seem to have a good knowledge of the real weapons, of military procedure or of the UT coding environment. Most of what you suggest comes from subjectively felt inconsistencies and disbalances - yet Inf should be designed as true to life as possible (IMO).

    No that's why we need to make it as real life as possible. A pistol with a 60 bulk is not realistic.
     

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