I'll lock this in a nano second if it get out of hand.

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Lizard Of Oz

Demented Avenger
Oct 25, 1998
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Mychaeel said:

The argument at hand is whether a fetus (at a certain stage of its development) qualifies as a human being or not; not whether killing a human being is immoral. We all agree on the latter, just not on the former.

You made a start by connecting that qualification as a "human being" to its being "sentient." Now please justify why you believe that any "knot of cells" qualifies under those terms already.

As I said above, unless we can prove that it is not "sentient." Then we must assume
that it is.

Imagine that one day 1000 feotus are aborted, and we say “oh, good thing they were not
human beings.” Then the next day scientists announce that they discovered that humans
become "sentient." 6 hours after conception. Then we say “Ah @#%$, we killed 1000 people
yesterday.” How could we live ourselves?
 

Beowolf

hail to the king
Feb 2, 2003
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Abortion: For.

The baby is still a parasite at this time, does not realize its own existence, thus I do not consider it murder

Death penalty: For.

If you kill someone, you die too. No questions asked. Were you drunk while you did it? Doesn't matter. If you did it once it shows that you could do it again.

Prayer in School: Depends.

Optional prayer groups are fine, prayer over announcements and such is a no no.

Sex Ed. For.

Not enough people really know about the birds and the bees....

Homosexual Marriage: For.

It's not like you have to watch them make love...


Child Tax credits: Against

You pay for your pleasure. Think before having sex.

Gun Control: Against

People who are going to shoot other people are not going to be stopped by some gun laws. If anything, no gun control will help the victims defend themselves.
 

Lizard Of Oz

Demented Avenger
Oct 25, 1998
10,593
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phil said:
blah blah blah...
I don't know what they taught you older folks in sex ed classes back in the day. But the ONLY moral content we got was abstane untill you are married if you want to be absolutely sure you don't get a nasty gift or pregnant. BUT if you are going to, please for the love of god.....wear a condom. *shrug*

I learned about sex the way your suppose to...on the street.

Some (ultra-right-wing-Christian-conservatives) believe that ALL sex education is inseparable from morality teaching.
 

NeoNite

Starsstream
Dec 10, 2000
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Lizard Of Oz said:
Because Dopey closed his Gay Rights thread while I was typing a few opinions of my own....

Abortion: Against.

If the pregnancy was due rape, tough luck, that’s life, bad poop happens, deal with it.

Discuss...

:hmm: That's cold man. That's very cold.
Bit of a touchy subject, I'll have to watch my words.
I can do this without causing any flames and I will.

I think it's the woman her full right to abort the baby after a rape.
If you think about it, it makes perfect sense.

Course the baby shouldn't be scapegoat. But like I said, she has full right for aborting the child. Asap If you ask me.

But tbh I guess it varies from woman to woman. I think. Generalising isn't a good thing really.
It never is.
 

Mychaeel

New Member
Lizard Of Oz said:
As I said above, unless we can prove that it is not "sentient." Then we must assume that it is.

Imagine that one day 1000 feotus are aborted, and we say “oh, good thing they were not human beings.” Then the next day scientists announce that they discovered that humans become "sentient." 6 hours after conception. Then we say “Ah @#%$, we killed 1000 people yesterday.” How could we live ourselves?

That's the point I was trying to make: We should make an educated decision on that matter taking everything into account we know and can find out about it. We'll never be able to either fully weigh the harm of "killing a knot of cells" or that of the living people whose lives are affected by not doing it. Exactly that is the sort of moral dilemma we're almost constantly in; and making a blanket decision to favor one side at the expense of the other side doesn't lessen that dilemma or make the decision any more moral.

At least you should be able to say to yourself that you tried hard to weigh the opposite sides as well as you could instead of merely accepting your ignorance on one side and settling for erring in its favor.

The suggestion to define a "human being" that's eligible to the same ethics that are generally accepted to apply to grown-up human beings by being "sentient" is a good step into the right direction. Whether a "brain scan" or whatever else would be the right way to determine that is an entirely different discussion (that I don't feel inclined to go into), but at least it's important not to remain content with saying "We might be wrong, so we'll just do nothing, even though we know that's wrong too on a different level."

Imagine that one day 1000 feotus are aborted, and we say “oh, good thing they were not human beings.” Then the next day scientists announce that they discovered that humans become "sentient." 6 hours after conception. Then we say “Ah @#%$, we killed 1000 people yesterday.” How could we live ourselves?

On the other hand...

Imagine one day abortion is entirely outlawed because scientists find out that a foetus is "sentient" from the very second the sperm inseminates an ovum; so, a thousand abortions are canceled. Then, the next day, the same scientists say "Aww shucks, we were wrong; a foetus is nothing but an insentient knot of cells until three months into pregnancy, so there's no reason not to abort in that period of time."

How could we live with ourselves knowing that we ruined the lives of a thousand people for nothing than an "insentient knot of cells"?

With any decision comes the probability of having decided wrong. As long as we try to make our decisions as open-minded and educated as possible, I'd consider those decisions morally sound even if they turn out to be wrong. As I said before, avoiding a decision can cause as much or even more harm than making a wrong one.
 

Mychaeel

New Member
Lizard Of Oz said:
who has no decision making power in this situation

Where does that come in? You're perfectly willing to deprive the other side from having "decision-making power in this situation," after all.

The lack of "decision-making power" has no relevance in a discussion like this. If anything, the actual decision of one of the involved parties in favor of one of the sides should weigh; but you're not willing to accept the mother's say in this. (And you're right there from an argumentative point of view; somebody who's directly involved in the matter in hand rarely qualifies as objective.)

The decision I have made is in favor of the possible sentient life-form who has no decision making power in this situation, over the possible effects on the living people.

To me it seems you're not even trying to shed light on the question of those "possible"s.

The harm done by not allowing abortion can be pretty well defined by just regarding a host of cases where it actually happened. On the other hand, in your opinion, what's the maximum extent of harm that might be done by killing the "possibly sentient life-form" that's a foetus in very early stages of its development? (We all were in this stage at some time in the past.)

For that matter: Where does the actual harm lie in the killing of a grown-up human being? I dare say that the victim itself cares nothing about it after the fact.

Not to be misunderstood, I'm not disputing the immorality of killing a grown human; but I think it'd be worth looking into that moral principle a bit closer before trying to apply it to a "sentient knot of cells."
 

Stryker8

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This is a bit odd, some are against abortion, and against gun control. Yet, statistically speaking, its those unwanted children that grow up later to become criminals, combine this with the us 'right' to own a gun and you've got higher fatality numbers aswell.

Hence, pro abortion and pro gun control for me.
 

_Zd_3s_

Regristered User
Woo! Why you put all this in one thread is beyond me, since you'll get a thread that's very hard to read, but alas. I'll just sum up some of my current believes, then. :)

Abortion: For.

As long as a foetus isn't able to stay alive outside the womb even with the help of everything modern medical science has to offer, I consider this foetus not as an "innocent human being", but as a part of the mother's body. Or like Fluid put it: as long as the foetus is still an oddly shaped cancer, the mother has every right to have it removed. It's not even a matter of "owning" the baby; there is no baby, it's simply a part of the mother.

Because a foetus has to be relatively old to stay alive outside its mother, my standard enables almost every abortion to happen.

Death penalty: Against.

Death penalty has nothing to do with what the western justice system is all about. Namely, punishing criminals, rehabilitating and preparing them for reintroduction into the society.

For some loonies this simply can't work and they should be locked away in a mental institution or some prison for the rest of their life. This way they will be seperated from society forever. It's cheaper than death penalty and more fitting to our current moral standards, which highly value human life.

Prayer in School: Against.

In countries that consider themselves free for any religion, there's no place for even the major religion in public schools. Any type of religion shouldn't be forced upon any people.

Sex Ed. For.

Mating is one of the most basal of all biological processes and should be taught extensively in biology class. It's also okay to give some pointers as to how to deal with sexuality and birth prevention in the real world. School shouldn't be all about theory.

If talking about sex with young kids isn't part of your moral standards, that's okay. But do expect them to be confronted with this simple biological process in school, since it's an essential part of this field of science. As is the evolution theory, by the way.

Homosexual Marriage: For.

Although not one of our basic rights, I really think every western society should allow homosexual marriages to happen. Basically, it's just a simple registration for the state that two adult people love each other and live with each other. How can you not allow that for homosexual couples, regardless wether you think homosexuality is "wrong or right" (God, I hate that phrase)?

Gun Control: For.

I think the American government really ought to look a bit more closely at their gun control laws. How do you need a full-automatic handcannon for "self-defense"? I think the American people have every right to defend themselves and own a gun, but some more regulations wouldn't hurt anyone. A simple handgun is more than enough for your safety. Getting one shouldn't be as easy as walking in a gun shop, showing your ID and walking out fully loaded.

You need a driver's license to go out on the freeway right? Why not introduce a very serious test in safety, maintenance and use for everyone wanting to own a gun? The government should watch the gun sales in the country more closely with good registration, etc. Owning a murder weapon is serious business, but the US government doesn't think it's that much of a problem, right?
 

Stryker8

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I also forgot to mention, you don't seem to understand the consequences of abortion being illegal, in the country's where it is illegal, mothers used sticks, cleaning appliances in order to try to do the abortion themselves, those that did knew a bit about birth control (usually richer women) went to the neighboring country's to have the abortion there (where its legal).
Seriously in some country's making abortion legal was (the paradox and irony) a life saver
 

Assymilator

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Feb 18, 2001
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Abortion: For

This is hard to really take a side on because it all is dependant upon situations. If a woman is raped, not only does she suffer for what some other person did to her, but then she has to carry that baggage for the rest of her life. Do you really want a kid to grow up without a father (as is the case most of the time) and suffer through their childhood without any of the things that we take for granted? I’m not talking about the functionality of an unborn baby fetus, I’m talking about a kid that can walk and talk on his or her own. Personally if the mother just isn’t fit to raise a child then we don’t need another kid that will have to go through life in therapy wondering why his mother didn’t love him.

Death Penalty: Against

If a man blows up a building and kills hundreds of people, death is more of the easy way out. Men and woman who perform those kinds of heinous acts of violence deserve to suffer for the rest of their lives and pray that every night they fall asleep they never wake up in the morning.

Prayer in School: Against

Me being an Atheist, it’s obvious what my stance is. I get enough of God from the papers, books, television, and radio and from other people that I really don’t need it in school. A moment of silence is enough, let’s keep it to that.

Sex. Ed: For

What you have to understand is that back then it was funny because we sorta knew what it was but then we didn’t. In the future kids are going to be exposed to this kind of material earlier in life because the television has it slapped on every channel, the text books have it mentioned, I mean dear god a required book I had to read this summer was The Scarlet Letter about a lady who had to wear a letter on her clothing because she got it on with another guy other than her husband. Now if only they’d teach the damn class besides showing us pictures of f’ed up vaginas and what the inside of your tubes look like when you have the Clap, maybe kids wouldn’t be getting pregnant when they’re 13.

Homosexual Marriage: For

Like most everyone else has said: who cares. They’re people just like you and me, but don’t let them adopt a child unless the child itself is gay too. If a child is brought up in a gay environment, more than likely that child will become gay too without being able to experience what other choices he or she has.

Child Tax credits: Against

I don’t want my tax dollars going towards some lady with 8 kids just because she can’t keep her legs closed.

Gun Control: For

Like Twisted Metal said, there should be a limit on what you can buy. People don’t need assault rifles and shotguns. A pistol will do just fine if your house ever gets broken in to.
 
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phil

OH GOD
Jan 3, 2000
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Im pretty sure being gay is not a product of enviroment assymilator. Lots of gay kids come out of "straight" homes. Care to explain that better with some facts or something? :con:
 

Dying_corpse

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abortion: for
like most ppl here... to a certain point

death penalty: indiferent
i'll most likely never commit murder... so i don't really give a ****

prayer in school: against
There's a building for that.. its called a church

sex ed.: for
teach em good so we don't end up with a bunch of dumb witted ppl with a bunch of dumb witted spawnlings

Homo marriage: for
as long as they can't have kids, I'm fine with that

child tax credits: against
if you can't keep it in your pants... pay

Gun control: against
if youstop ppl from having guns... then you have a lot of criminals with guns... and no one else with guns(except police of course)
 

_Zd_3s_

Regristered User
Doc_EDo said:
Death penalty: For.

Many ppl are speaking today against Death Penalty. It's not politically correct somehow?! But almost all of those have NO EXPERIANCE on how it is to be a victime!! They are quite ignorant about the subject but still think their opinion is superior! Whatta bunch of idiots.
Why is it that one should have experience with being a victim to form an opinion on the subject? I bet you don't have any experience with abortion or gay marriages, but you still think it's okay to have an opinion on those subjects. Lots of debates are about subjects people don't have personal experience with, but you can still base an opinion on facts and your moral values.

I sure as hell wouldn't call myself a bunch of idiots. :B You know. :p
 

Mychaeel

New Member
Doc_EDo said:
Death penalty: For.
...
Many ppl are speaking today against Death Penalty. It's not politically correct somehow?! But almost all of those have NO EXPERIANCE on how it is to be a victime!! They are quite ignorant about the subject but still think their opinion is superior! Whatta bunch of idiots.

As I said earlier in a different context, a victim (or anybody as closely involved in the matter) hardly qualifies as an objective participant in a discussion about the morality of death penalty for the very reasons you're mentioning.
 

Niamh

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Mychaeel said:
As I said earlier in a different context, a victim (or anybody as closely involved in the matter) hardly qualifies as an objective participant in a discussion about the morality of death penalty for the very reasons you're mentioning.

Yes, but unfortunately the people that end up as "Objective participants" sit safely in well guarded offices and homes because they can afford it, or they are being protected.
 

5150

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So Liz-Your wife gets brutally gang raped by 3 guys, she is permanently disfigured, probably paralyzed for life(not known for sure because she is in a coma and the bullet is still lodged in her spine), and she will most likely die if the baby(that one of those men bestowed upon her)is allowed to go full term.....How you feel now???

EDIT: See acouple posts down before you reply.
 
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