I'll lock this in a nano second if it get out of hand.

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AriTheDog

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I'd agree with you Liz, on everything but abortion.

I know it's been discusse, but when do you consider human life begins? You can say birth, you can say when the sperm penetrates the egg, or anywhere in between. All have different consequences. On the extreme end, you could say menstruation is a form of abortion.

I'm a big proponent of the morning-after pill. If you f'ed up, and remedy it immediately, good for you.

First trimester abortions are ok. Second trimester ones are pretty iffy. If a person has waited that long, they've been very foolish. Third trimester is a no-no.

:tdown: on the rape thing though, you want reconsider that.
 

tool

BuFs #1 mom
Oct 31, 2001
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wow 3.2 million per execution? they cant just shoot the guy in the head and call it good? This sort of thing should be pratically free. :B
 

Lizard Of Oz

Demented Avenger
Oct 25, 1998
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AriTheDog said:
I'd agree with you Liz, on everything but abortion.

I know it's been discusse, but when do you consider human life begins? You can say birth, you can say when the sperm penetrates the egg, or anywhere in between. All have different consequences. On the extreme end, you could say menstruation is a form of abortion.

I'm a big proponent of the morning-after pill. If you f'ed up, and remedy it immediately, good for you.

First trimester abortions are ok. Second trimester ones are pretty iffy. If a person has waited that long, they've been very foolish. Third trimester is a no-no.

:tdown: on the rape thing though, you want reconsider that.

The point I'm trying to make is that nobody can determine when that little knot of cells becomes sentient, therfeore killing it at anytime is wrong.

The baby, concieved at rape is as innocent as the mother and deserves a chance at life. Is it hard for the mother...you bet, but that's life.
 

tool

BuFs #1 mom
Oct 31, 2001
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I think that you should give the most rights to the mother, not the child. And please keep in mind guys, there is no right answer to this whole abortion thing, nor will there ever be, and the day that their actually is a right answer is the day that I can spell in a way that doesnt butcher the English language. ;)
 

AriTheDog

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Would you consider a morning after pill to be abortion, Liz? How about a successful Douche?

Just curious. This doesn't really lead anywhere, as we all have our own opinions.

P.S. Tool, you've come a long way since my sig, but punctuation helps in terms of legibility. ;)
 

Mychaeel

New Member
Lizard Of Oz said:
The point I'm trying to make is that nobody can determine when that little knot of cells becomes sentient, therfeore killing it at anytime is wrong.

Well... that's a stance that's hard to argue with.

I frankly don't believe in dogmatic statements like that though. Moral questions are never a black-and-white matter, and just the fact that there'll always be a doubt in any moral decision we make (*) doesn't mean that we should avoid those questions altogether regardless of the consequences. Not doing anything sometimes is just as bad as doing the wrong thing.


(*) Unlike what many people with a fundamentally dogmatic life philosophy try to tell us; specifically those who base their morals entirely on a religion without ever actually thinking about them independently.
 
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Zarkazm

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Jan 29, 2002
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Abortion: For.
Up to a certain point, and maybe later, under certain conditions. No way I'd tell a rape victim "deal with it"

Death penalty: Against.
Serves no purpose other than revenge, and revenge is ugly and pointless. It does not prevent murders, and is irreversible. I don't buy the "mistakes don't happen" hypothesis.

Prayer in School: Against.

Sex Ed. For.

Homosexual Marriage: Indifferent.

Child Tax credits: For.
They are meant to encourage breeding. You can be for or against that, but in Germany we need more children, so yes, encouraging breeding is fine with me. It's an investment.

Gun Control: For.
“Those that sacrifice freedom for security get, nor deserve, either.”
That's the whole point of having a govermnent. You give up freedom and get security in return. Maybe you want anarchy. There are enough places in the world to go.

What’s next, Freedom of the Press?
Irrelevant connection. Many nations have gun control and free press.
And surprisingly no bands of robbers running wild in the streets.
 

Lizard Of Oz

Demented Avenger
Oct 25, 1998
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tool said:
I think that you should give the most rights to the mother, not the
child....

Why? The mother at least has choices. The baby does not.



AriTheDog said:
Would you consider a morning after pill to be abortion, Liz?
How about a successful Douche?...)

Until somebody can tell me when the feoteus becomes sentient I would vote "no"
for the morning-after pill & "successful Douche".


Mychaeel said:
Well... that's a stance that's hard to argue with.

I frankly don't believe in dogmatic statements like that though. Moral
questions are never a black-and-white matter, and just the fact
that there'll always be a doubt in any moral decision we make (*) doesn't
mean that we should avoid those questions altogether regardless of the
consequences. Not doing anything sometimes is just as bad as doing
the wrong thing.

No avoidance here. The question is asked and answered. Damn the torpedos.

Mychaeel said:
(*) Unlike what many people with a fundamentally dogmatic life philosophy
try to tell us; specifically those who base their morals entirely on a
religion without ever actually thinking about them independently.

I would not call myself an atheis, but like our old friend SimplyCosmic, I
would call myself a "militant agnostic." Religeon has nothing to do with my
opinion the issue.
 
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Mychaeel

New Member
Lizard Of Oz said:
No avoidance here. The question is asked and answered.

You're merely stretching a generally accepted moral statement ("Killing humans is bad") far beyond its original scope to a set of circumstances where it's not possible to take it for granted that the same premises apply.

Thus, you're avoiding just that question: Does that moral statement apply here?

I would not call myself an atheis, but like our old friend SimplyCosmic, I would call myself a "militant agnostic." Religeon has nothing to do with my opinion the issue.

I can't remember saying it would. :)
 

Lizard Of Oz

Demented Avenger
Oct 25, 1998
10,593
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www.nsa.gov
Mychaeel said:
You're merely stretching a generally accepted moral statement ("Killing humans is bad") far beyond its original scope to a set of circumstances where it's not possible to take it for granted that the same premises apply.

That sentence makes no sense to me.

"same premises apply" What "same premises?"

You appear to be making a comparison to... nothing.
 

Niamh

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Twisted Metal said:
Death penalty - While it is kind of sick the people do deserve it. You do realize that our taxes pay for these sick sadistic f*cks to keep them in jail. They murdered countless people and are pure evil. Their lives are over anyway once they're in jail for the rest of their life, so why pay for these sickos.

I fully agree with you here.

No offence to all of you against the death penalty, you obviously all have very sheltered lifes, and I can understand that. It's not the same everywhere in the world though. I'm from South Africa, possibly one of the most ****ed up countries in the world right now, but, somehow everything that happens here gets hushed and hidden away from the your eyes. Let me give some facts.....source

  • 58 child rapes a day
  • A woman gets raped every 28 seconds
  • SA's murder rate is 6 times higher that the United States
  • African males believe that raping a white virgin will cure them from aids (The proportion of South African deaths because of HIV/Aids has nearly doubled from 4.6 to 8.7% between 1997 and 2001, 5 million people have already been infected and another 350 000 per year from there on)
  • SA becomes world's new drug capital
  • 55 South Africans are murdered everyday
  • Doctors in America and England are advising women travelling to South Africa and the rest of the continent to pack anti-Aids drugs in their luggage because of the high incidence of the disease and rape
  • More than 1 400 farmers have already been murdered in extremely violent, brutal attacks, it is genocide




Our police force are underfunded, corrupt, millions of rands rather gets spent on Mandela's 85th birthday bash when thousands and thousands of people are starving, police officers sell newspapers on street corners to make ends meet, jails are overflooding, the correctional services are corrupt, jail rapes are of the highest in the world (slow punctures they are called, infecting inmates with Aids) and murderers and rapists serve jail sentences of just a few years.

Last week, a few blocks from where I work, a woman, her mother and her little one year old girl was hijacked by 4 heavily armed men. The grandmother was shot in the neck and thrown out of the car, the little girl was shot in the head and back, execution style, the mother gang raped and then shot, all while her husband was listening to her brutal screams over her mobile. Hell will freeze over before my tax money serves to keep those demons alive in jail. This is just one case, there are thousands of others. The government does...NOTHING.

Do you have any idea what it's like to always watch over your shoulder, to as a woman not be able to drive a car alone, to know that 1 out of 3 women are raped in their lives, so between yourself ,your mother and your sister, one of you are bound to be raped and infected with aids. The streets are littered with criminals, all released from jail, and if they go back, it would just be for a while. Our houses look like prisons. At my work we need to get escorted in the mornings into our building from where we are dropped or parked. White farmers are the highest at risk murder group in the world.

This is no way to live. The only way is to leave the country unless you want to fear for your life and those of your loved ones everyday. The country's spirit are broken, the people are angry, and unless the government does not do something about these killings we will start taking the law into our own hands, civil war is brewing and all because the screwed up government sits back and does nothing.

I'm all for death penalty, all these ****ers deserve to rot in hell as soon as possible. If I sound blase about killing someone for committing a murder, place yourself in this position first. How would you feel to watch your wife being raped by 4 men while you can do nothing to save her, see her being shot, you being tortured, hacked to pieces, and your remaining family's tax money will pay to keep them alive, keep them fed everyday. That's a daily occurance here. They do not deserve the air they breathe.

Feel free do delete this post, it won't stop anything from happening though. I wish people would just divert their eyes a little from their safe, secure lives everyday and place themselves in the shoes of the people that really feel evil's wrath.
 
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Fluid

Zen fascists will control you
Aug 2, 2000
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Abortion: For. Can you tell the difference between a cancer and a developing foetus?

Death penalty: Against. Serves no purpose in rehabilitating someone into society.

Prayer in school: Against. Simply because it has nothing to do with education.

Sex Ed: Blah. Like it ever really taught me anything.

Gay marriage: why is this even an issue?

Child Tax credits: Against. The world is overcrowded already, we don't need to stimulate that.

Gun control: this is a special one. My idea would be stun darts, nonlethal and yet suffices for self defense. Problem solved!
 

Mychaeel

New Member
Lizard Of Oz said:
That sentence makes no sense to me.

"same premises apply" What "same premises?"

You appear to be making a comparison to... nothing.

The "circumstances" I'm talking about are "abortion" (I thought that was obvious from this thread's context), and "same" relates to the "original scope" I'm talking about in the first half of the sentence.
 

.altan

Tomorrow
Dec 22, 2001
1,336
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Lizard Of Oz said:
Because we can't determine when consciousness occurs in the developement of a human being, we must err on the side of caution.

We can probably determine when consciousness occurs. A brain-wave scan would be in order.
 

Mychaeel

New Member
Here's the crux of the matter:

Lizard Of Oz said:
killing of a baby/fetus (aka "Human being")

You weren't saying that before. Rather, you were saying (paraphrased to make clear how I understood your statement):

"Since nobody can tell 'when that little knot of cells becomes sentient', we must apply the same moral rules on 'killing it' as we would for a sentient being [like a grown-up human; regardless of whether the 'knot of cells' is or is not actually sentient]."​

Specifically, you're making a clear connection yourself between that "knot of cells" being "sentient" and the morality of "killing it." (Here's what you originally said for quick reference.)

The argument at hand is whether a foetus (at a certain stage of its development) qualifies as a human being or not; not whether killing a human being is immoral. We all agree on the latter, just not on the former.

You made a start by connecting that qualification as a "human being" to its being "sentient." Now please justify why you believe that any "knot of cells" qualifies under those terms already.
 
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Doc_EDo

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Jan 10, 2002
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Abortion: For (until a baby hasn't been developed).
Should you ban masturbating because each sperm is another human being?
Why would anyone have to decide what you should do with your body?

Death penalty: For.
As long as we can be 200% sure of their guilt give 'em what they deserve. If someone takes someone's life with intent there's nothing to debate. He has used up his right to be alive.
Many ppl are speaking today against Death Penalty. It's not politically correct somehow?! But almost all of those have NO EXPERIANCE on how it is to be a victime!! They are quite ignorant about the subject but still think their opinion is superior! Whatta bunch of idiots.

Prayer in School: Against.
Pray at home or on breaks.

Sex Ed: For.
Only logical that kids need to know that they should use
condom because they'll have sex anyway.

Homosexual Marriage: For.
Why not? Doesn't harm me.

Gun Control: For.
If you can't find gun you can't kill with it either.
Where I live it's almost impossibile to get a gun.
That's why there almost aren't any gun related murders/accidents.
There are only a few extreme criminals that have guns and you
don't stand a chance against those anyway.
 
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phil

OH GOD
Jan 3, 2000
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Lizard Of Oz said:
Because Dopey closed his Gay Rights thread while I was typing a few opinions of my own....

Abortion: Against.

You’re killing an innocent human being. If the mother’s life is at risk AND the baby will also die, I support aborting the doomed baby to save the mother. If the pregnancy was due rape, tough luck, that’s life, bad poop happens, deal with it.

While I dont consider a lump of cells, that can not survive on its own in the slightest way or even think beyond the most basic impulses to eat and digest, "alive". I respect your conviction to life. :)

Death penalty: Against.

Serves no purpose other than revenge, and revenge is ugly and pointless. It does not prevent murders. Those that will kill rarely, if ever, consider the consequences of their actions. Life in prison, with no Cable/Satellite TV, cold meals, one hour alone in the “Yard” per day, no conjugal visits, no socializing with your fellow inmates, and lots, and lots time to think about what you’ve done is punishment enough, and surprisingly cheaper than frying them.

Eh' I still believe in reform vs. punishment. But I certainly agree that punishment for the sake of revenge does not further society.

Prayer in School: Against.

Read the Constitution. Read the federalist papers. Your god(s) belong in your home and your church and your private schools. I don't want my tax money spent on religious indoctrination.

No problems here.

Sex Ed. For.

Some parents barely understand the process themselves. Some parents will never talk with their kids about it due to embarrassment, thoughtlessness, laziness, and religious grounds. It should be an optional class so that those who oppose it do not have it forced upon them. It should teach the biological facts, not morality.

I don't know what they taught you older folks in sex ed classes back in the day. But the ONLY moral content we got was abstane untill you are married if you want to be absolutely sure you don't get a nasty gift or pregnant. BUT if you are going to, please for the love of god.....wear a condom. *shrug*

Homosexual Marriage: Who cares.

For the life of me I cannot see how this affects me in the slightest.

\o/


Child Tax credits: Against

I don’t care that it cost you more money to raise more kids. If you can’t feed ‘em don’t breed ‘em! Your taxes go down because you have a buttload of your spawn running round, eating up government resources (schools), and my taxes go up to pay for your frigging lack of self control. All tax credits, deductions, exemptions should end at two kids per family.

Intresting idea, but will never happen in the land of the freetime. *shrug*

Gun Control: Against

“Those that sacrifice freedom for security get, nor deserve, either”. Repeal the second appendment and the floor will fall out from under the entire Bill Of Rights. What’s next, Freedom of the Press?

Discuss...

We all know how I feel about guns. =)
 
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