If UT4 was announced...

[Sir_Brizz]

Thats a misconstrued and stereotypical assumption that a casual player would want to believe, but has been shown why it's wrong time and time again. I want something because it enhances the game and takes away detrimental things like not being able to see people from a distance. If it bother's you so much, YOU have the option to turn it off. I don't really see why artwork on the wall or why the way some character looks in a game, that stresses player interaction and skill, matters so much in "entertainment" value other than you're wanting the game to be something it's not meant to be. If competetive games aren't good for public, then we wouldn't have any casual players at all as any popular competetive game has a majority share of casual players to begin with. And competition has almost always been proportional to a games popularity, atleast in games that pit players against one another. Though I'd love for you to share some titles that say the oppposite.

Wait... who wants to make the game into something it's not meant to be by modifying the game into something it is not?

It's not misconstrued and has never been shown to be false. Almost every game that has a large competition base was, by and large, NOT made for competitive play and is most commonly modded to be appropriate for competitive play. Look at Q3A. Without CPM, it's not even really suitable for competitive play.

Games that are made for competitive play are almost never very good casual games (see Warsow, and, frankly, even UT2003). The two play styles don't really work together, they are mutually exclusive.

I also think it's funny you mention the player interaction and skill and yet are defending something that emphasizes simplifying (def. to make easier) certain aspects of the game. WEEEEE!

 

[UBerserker]

I can't believe someone wants Double Domination aka terrible piece of crap in UT again.

 

[Big Hairy Bugger]

Bring back the Ripper and stay away from anything UT2k3/4 everything-wise except the good industrial theme.

Yeh,the Ripper was a good weapon

 

[Hideinlight]

Games that are made for competitive play are almost never very good casual games (see Warsow, and, frankly, even UT2003). The two play styles don't really work together, they are mutually exclusive.

Heroes of Newerth 2.0 now consists of a competitive mode that's played as vanilla on tournaments.

AND

it now has a "Casual Mode" that's actually newb friendly and not so rage inducing.

If HoN can manage it, why can't other games too?

 

[GreatEmerald]

If it bother's you so much, YOU have the option to turn it off. I don't really see why artwork on the wall or why the way some character looks in a game, that stresses player interaction and skill, matters so much in "entertainment" value other than you're wanting the game to be something it's not meant to be.

That's the thing. Offline it works just well. But when I go play online, it just isn't fair that because I want to enjoy the atmosphere of the game, I am penalised. Enemies see me as a lightbulb while for me they fade with the background. And thus I keep getting killed, which in turn means that online games lose all the enjoyment value. And that's exactly why I generally play gametypes such as Invasion (UT2004), Campaign (UT3) or Co-op (Unreal) - other players' settings don't interfere with my game.

 

[Sir_Brizz]

Heroes of Newerth 2.0 now consists of a competitive mode that's played as vanilla on tournaments.

AND

it now has a "Casual Mode" that's actually newb friendly and not so rage inducing.

If HoN can manage it, why can't other games too?

I'm not saying that developers can't make their own competitive mods. I'm saying that the default game should not be that.

 

[dizzm]

Wait... who wants to make the game into something it's not meant to be by modifying the game into something it is not?

Just how exactly is something that doesn't touch the physics, weapon balance, scaling, movement and is completely optional...modifying the game into something else? Making maps competition worthy is more a matter of making maps that are built around the same gameplay UT3 was designed with out of the box.

I've never heard ONE person complain about UTComp for UT3 about how it turned the game into something else. It's NOT toying with physics, weapons or items (save for the trans, which is actually a huge deal to begin with). If anything it is enhancing it tastefully, intelligently, and to many people's enjoyment. I have yet to see where you can point out that it is detrimental to casual players

It's not misconstrued and has never been shown to be false. Almost every game that has a large competition base was, by and large, NOT made for competitive play and is most commonly modded to be appropriate for competitive play. Look at Q3A. Without CPM, it's not even really suitable for competitive play.

Has been many times, on many forums with a general consensus it is perfectly fine since it is something optional for competition servers and no one's forced to use it, (although stock 2k4 skins are terrible and dark to begin with and many agree with that on several forums as well). The Q3 analogy is downright wrong. Q3A was, is, and always has been, THE most competition used Quake game. CPMA never had a single world series championship in any league, online or on lan and never surpassed the competition of any other Quake release. Vo0 dominated it, and guess what he isn't even a top in 8 QuakeLive. And that game is pretty much Q3A in a nice convenient package, with tasteful modifications that enhance the same game to make it even more competition worthy. What else? The game's activity put's UT*'s to shame and has thousands of casual players to boot. But in any case it doesn't really matter whether you THINK a game was or was not designed for competitive play because people will always be willing to mod a game with great potential to make it even better, if the game itself is good enough.

Games that are made for competitive play are almost never very good casual games (see Warsow, and, frankly, even UT2003). The two play styles don't really work together, they are mutually exclusive.

Huh? Both games were wonderful casual games. I enjoyed a good few years with both with nothing but casual play, along with several friends and people I know. Not sure what you're even talking about the play-style's not working together, other than they are two separate physics movements which require you to learn *gasp* them (not hard). Master them to become good? Yes, but it doesn't mean you still can't enjoy the game as a casual player.

I also think it's funny you mention the player interaction and skill and yet are defending something that emphasizes simplifying (def. to make easier) certain aspects of the game. WEEEEE!

I think it's funny how you're taking what I say out of context (def. reading comprehension, extrapolating information), but please do go on and continue with vague references that could don't make any relevant point or counterpoint.

 

[dizzm]

That's the thing. Offline it works just well. But when I go play online, it just isn't fair that because I want to enjoy the atmosphere of the game, I am penalized. Enemies see me as a lightbulb while for me they fade with the background. And thus I keep getting killed, which in turn means that online games lose all the enjoyment value. And that's exactly why I generally play gametypes such as Invasion (UT2004), Campaign (UT3) or Co-op (Unreal) - other players' settings don't interfere with my game.

If you really feel that you can't enjoy the atmosphere of hte game simply because you like to watch people fade from a distance to the point where you can't see them and thus not aim at them, then maybe you aren't playing the right game. I certainly am able to enjoy the atmosphere even with brightskins. Maybe Tron doesn't deserve bright glowstick bikes and suits, else it might hurt the atmosphere? Although I have to say, the whole "unfair" claim is bunk, because you have that same option to use brightskins as anyone else. And I assure you there are and always have been many "fair" server's for stock gametypes DM/CTF/ONS that do not have brightskins, with many a noobs in them as well, suited perfectly for people as yourself if that's what you prefer.

 

[Sir_Brizz]

Just how exactly is something that doesn't touch the physics, weapon balance, scaling, movement and is completely optional...modifying the game into something else? Making maps competition worthy is more a matter of making maps that are built around the same gameplay UT3 was designed with out of the box.

Because it's NOT optional. Giving you the choice to use it or not is not the same as making it optional.

I've never heard ONE person complain about UTComp for UT3 about how it turned the game into something else. It's NOT toying with physics, weapons or items (save for the trans, which is actually a huge deal to begin with). If anything it is enhancing it tastefully, intelligently, and to many people's enjoyment. I have yet to see where you can point out that it is detrimental to casual players

That's because the only people who play UT3 anymore are the scattered people on PUGs. The game is all but dead, in other words it's not dead but hardly anyone plays it or cares about it.

I'd go into why UTcomp is bad for new players, but that topic has been covered so many times and in so many ways over the past ten years that I don't think anything I can say would add anything to the conversation.

Has been many times, on many forums with a general consensus it is perfectly fine since it is something optional for competition servers and no one's forced to use it, (although stock 2k4 skins are terrible and dark to begin with and many agree with that on several forums as well). The Q3 analogy is downright wrong. Q3A was, is, and always has been, THE most competition used Quake game. CPMA never had a single world series championship in any league, online or on lan and never surpassed the competition of any other Quake release. Vo0 dominated it, and guess what he isn't even a top in 8 QuakeLive. And that game is pretty much Q3A in a nice convenient package, with tasteful modifications that enhance the same game to make it even more competition worthy. What else? The game's activity put's UT*'s to shame and has thousands of casual players to boot. But in any case it doesn't really matter whether you THINK a game was or was not designed for competitive play because people will always be willing to mod a game with great potential to make it even better, if the game itself is good enough.

A free game that installs in seconds has more players than a scatterbrained series with a massive lack of consistency and pretty awful release quality in the latest game? HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE!!!

Huh? Both games were wonderful casual games. I enjoyed a good few years with both with nothing but casual play, along with several friends and people I know. Not sure what you're even talking about the play-style's not working together, other than they are two separate physics movements which require you to learn *gasp* them (not hard). Master them to become good? Yes, but it doesn't mean you still can't enjoy the game as a casual player.

I'm not saying you can't enjoy the games as a casual player. But they are not friendly to new people and only people with a lot of will power will get through the first few hours and keep playing. I met lots of people on pubs in UT2kX that played the game once and pretty much never played the game again. Needless to say, if your game is the kind of game where it is more than just possible for new players to never score a kill in a whole 20 minute game and more expert players can pretty much sit on their mouse getting headshot after headshot on them, the game is not made well for casual play, and that is exactly what games like Warsow and UT2kX are.

I think it's funny how you're taking what I say out of context (def. reading comprehension, extrapolating information), but please do go on and continue with vague references that could don't make any relevant point or counterpoint.

How did I take what you said out of context? Your post said that you liked things that emphasized skill and yet you are arguing for the use of a mutator whose primary purpose is to DE-emphasize certain skills and simplify the game. If you couldn't figure out that's what my point was, I'm not sure I can even continue having a discussion with you.

 

[GreatEmerald]

If you really feel that you can't enjoy the atmosphere of hte game simply because you like to watch people fade from a distance to the point where you can't see them and thus not aim at them, then maybe you aren't playing the right game. I certainly am able to enjoy the atmosphere even with brightskins. Maybe Tron doesn't deserve bright glowstick bikes and suits, else it might hurt the atmosphere? Although I have to say, the whole "unfair" claim is bunk, because you have that same option to use brightskins as anyone else. And I assure you there are and always have been many "fair" server's for stock gametypes DM/CTF/ONS that do not have brightskins, with many a noobs in them as well, suited perfectly for people as yourself if that's what you prefer.

Tron creates the atmosphere because of it. That's the complete opposite of what I'm talking about. UT3 was never meant to have things like that because it makes zero sense to go to war with something that makes you easy to hit. If it was something like a mining game, sure, but it's not. The style is completely different.

As for unfairness, I'm talking about the client-side things like lego graphics, not brightskins or other things that UTComp creates. You can avoid the latter - and I do tend to do exactly that, - but not the former.