Rostam said:
I don't understand what you mean.
Are you suggesting people that pirate a piece of software are a desirable part of the userbase?
F--king pirates!
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I don't understand what you mean.
Are you suggesting people that pirate a piece of software are a desirable part of the userbase?
OK I'll give an example:
Game A and B both are exactly even good. They also have the exact same of commercial pimping. Game A has no protection and is available on several p2p programs. Game B has an unbreakable protection.
Game A sells 250 thousand copies, and 400,000 people warez it and play it too.
Game B sells 250 thousand copies.
The gamedevelopers don't exactly get more money the way I see it.
Game A and B both are exactly even good. They also have the exact same of commercial pimping. Game A has no protection and is available on several p2p programs. Game B has an unbreakable protection.
Game A sells 250 thousand copies, and 400,000 people warez it and play it too.
Game B sells 250 thousand copies.
The gamedevelopers don't exactly get more money the way I see it.
Hadmar said:Study? No, personal experience. And how many of the people who complain about "WHY ARE MY TEAM ALL FIVE INCHES TALL??!?!??!" (sounds funny) or similar in fact own legitimate copys where the copy protection dosn't realy work - either faulty or not at all so they had to crack the game to get it running at all or maybe they just don't want to have the CD in the drive while playing?
Again, I don't know. I said "study" because personal experience means bugger all in these discussions. All of my friends are atheists. This doesn't mean that everyone is an atheist, though. Obviously we choose to associate with people similar to ourselves. Listening to our friends agreeing with us and assuming we are part of the majority is idiocy.
Copy protection schemes like CD-keys prevent or hinder them playing online and makes life unpleasant when it comes to patches.
FIGHT THE POWER!!!1111~~~
Why wouldn't I do my best to support that kind of technology? It's going to make pirated games absolutely useless which is something I am definitely in favour of.
Nothing personal but everyone who uses the term "intellectual property" in a sentence that isn't meant to make that term look bad, should die.
That's why we're never going to agree on this. If you don't accept that it is possible to own an idea and deserve to profit from that ownership I can't really take anything you have to say on this issue seriously.
The faked Rolex is going to be of a significantly lower quality than the real thing. Also the purpose of a Rolex is to show that you can afford a rolex. The faked rolex is pretty crappy at that.
Copied information OTOH doesn't lose a lot of usefullness especially if we're talking information stored digitally and copied digitally.
Sorry, but you aren't a large enough sample group to draw a meaningful conclusion from...
Rostam said:
I would contend that Game A would sell 150 thousand copies and that 100 thousand of the people that were going to buy it would pirate it instead because they were dishonest.
I mean, so long as we're pulling figures out of our asses...
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The 250,000 people wasn't the point. The point was that those 400,000 people aren't going to pay for a game anyway and the people that do pay for a game shouldn't be hinderd by their actions because it shouldn't be their concern.
And I answered that point by saying I didn't find your assertion that noone would pirate the game instead of buying it at all convincing.
Well since the internet didn't totally destroy game developers and publishers, since they still made *some* money out of their product you would think there is atleast a (tiny bit - if that would make it easier to believe) of truth in my theory.
If you agree with me that some of the people who'd have bought "B" would pirate "A"...
why should the publisher settle for making less money from "A" when they could make more from "B"?
why should the publisher settle for making less money from "A" when they could make more from "B"?
Well I don't really agree there. Sure some would buy B and not A because they can warez it, but that could easily be compensated by the amount of people that first tried the warezed version of A and then bought it.
I'm pretty sure people aren't going to magicly buy a game because they can't warez it. Perhaps I am wrong and games without protection don't sell as well. But I don't see it that way. People trying out a game for free is the ultimate advertisement. I will try to dig up some statistics tomorrow, should I have time. But even that wouldn't prove who is right.
I'm pretty sure people aren't going to magicly buy a game because they can't warez it. Perhaps I am wrong and games without protection don't sell as well. But I don't see it that way. People trying out a game for free is the ultimate advertisement. I will try to dig up some statistics tomorrow, should I have time. But even that wouldn't prove who is right.
I very much doubt it.
Since those people have already acquired "A" for free, why would they spend money to get the same thing again?
I imagine the vast majority of them would spend the money on "B" instead, not being able to pirate it and all.
I wonder if you read my post or somone elses post. Actualy I wonder if you read the same thread as me.Snake13 said:
Maybe observation sounds better than personal experience to you? I know about the problems legit users of games have with copy protection from my own experience and countless threads I read on different forums. And it seems to be a god given coincidence that I'm the only person I know that buys all of his games or something. Besides, I'm more of a listener than talker in real life so I don't get the idea noone cares about copy protection by people agreeing with me but by listening to what they say... and not nessesarily when they are talking to me (I'm sometimes surprised what topics people talk about when they are obviously not alone...).spm1138 said:
*edit* I have to correct myself here. I think I'm not the only person I know that handles/handeled it like that. A friend whom I visit roughly once a week copyed like crazy (just like I did) some years ago. He too buyed some games but far from all. And I see more and more original boxes in his room and can't even remember the last time I saw a copy of a new game at his place. If you wan't (and if I don't forget it =) ) I'll ask him why he buys more and copys less/no more next time I see him.*/edit*
Not every game is a game you play online. Patches are annoying even for legit players.spm1138 said:
Yeah, it's more annoying for cracked games. BTW, do the generic securom/whatever cracks still exist? No need for a cracked patch with hacks like that.Yeah, why won't I support a technology that requires me to be online even if I just want to play a single player game. Why don't I support a technology that kills a good part of my privacy. Oh, I wonder why.spm1138 said:
If you can't take me seriously becouse of that I'm afrait you have issues. Oh how great intellectual property is. It would be so wonderfull if every idea from the beginning of time would have been the exclusive right of the inventer. You would be able to buy wheels from McWheels inc and nowhere else. The licence would grant you the right to use that weel for two weeks then you must get a new licence or you could subscribe for a year of wheel usage... if you can affor it. Or a more real example: Disney, it would be so great if disney wouldn't exist the way they it does now becouse they couldn't just take other peoples ideas and use them and later on lobby to prevent others to do the same with their workspm1138 said:
Now, if you would tell me the american patent system is awsome then I wouldn't be able to take you seriously on any issue.
Er... do we realy have to bring this tread off topic?
The cracked game can't be played online etc.spm1138 said:
Depends on the POV. A Rolex is meant to show you have money, a faked Rolex is meant to make you look as if you have money.spm1138 said:
Bah, BAH I SAY. YOU ARE IN DENIAL!!!111shiftonespm1138 said:Sorry, but you aren't a large enough sample group to draw a meaningful conclusion from...
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I did that with UT. Got it a few days before it was released here with the mindset "ugh, multiplayer only (bot's don't count in that case) that will probably be total crap. Ah hell let's try it anyway.", liked it and buyed it the day it was released. IIRC it was even the first game I played online... a long time after I got it and in which I played against bot's. Oh, I forgot, I'm not a big enough group...spm1138 said:
Perhaps the internet would have if they didn't take measures to protect themselves? With more and more people hopping on the broadband wagon you don't think it's possible that a critical point (much like the napster fiasco) will be reached when most people believe they can get away with it easily?Rostam said:
/me sighs, this isnt a new argument at all. big companies have been claiming forever that "illegal transfer is on the brink of putting them all out of business"
the truth is that just as "home taping" didnt kill the music industry, warezing isnt kiling the games companies.
And for the people who claim that your stealing money from the pockets of the authors, thats just plainly not true because a) the large majority of game developers dont get payed commission for sales. and b) the game industry spends more money on anti piracy schemes than even they predict they lose due to it.
ps. stop calling warezing pirating, arr you be giving us real pirates false hope in the thread listings
the truth is that just as "home taping" didnt kill the music industry, warezing isnt kiling the games companies.
And for the people who claim that your stealing money from the pockets of the authors, thats just plainly not true because a) the large majority of game developers dont get payed commission for sales. and b) the game industry spends more money on anti piracy schemes than even they predict they lose due to it.
ps. stop calling warezing pirating, arr you be giving us real pirates false hope in the thread listings
Freon said:spm1138 you forget that many game makers are AGAINST copy protection. Sure they don't want people to steal they games, but that doesn't mean they enjoy copy protection.
Many games were "patched" to remove the copy protection (like UT, Q3 and HL to a lesser expend). The US version of Halo for PC was even released without copy protection because of a "bug". Even the Epic guys said we should always use a no-cd crack when playing UT2k3
Hell, I use a crack for every game I buy
Then they took out the CD checking in the v2555 patch, removing the need for a no-CD patch.
All games should have CD key protection followed by username and password verification. If you werent gonna buy the game anyway why copy it? Oh yeah, because you DONT HAVE to buy it. Copy protection is a major deterent for people who want to warez the latest games from the internet, a lot of people give up as its too much hastle. As far as I'm concerned I think copied games should be allowed to send internet traffic without the user knowing informing the game publishers about the copied version. A nice **** you for copying it in the first place.
Snakebite stay out of this, you're quite biaised being in the buisiness and all
Anyway, the problems with games and music is not the piracy (Yaar!). It's the way they are sold. I've read a article some time ago (on gamasutra) on how games should be sold. Since there is no way you can stop piracy, just stop selling games and music: give them.
Today, one person could buy a game and release it on the internet so everybody can have it for free. And you can't sue them all! of course the game publisher gets ****ed up, but does it really matter? Not really. The publisher doesn't need money, the game developers do. We need a way to pay the developers and get rid of the publishers.
The author of that article suggested a nice system, but I doubt we'll ever see it. A game developer would say "Hey guys, we'd like to make a Diablo 6. Can you give us money". And the willing people would fund the game. Gamers would get a real impact on games this way. They would be involved in the game production in a small way. If enough money is given the game is done and then released freely (or just the price for the support).
This solution is kinda utopic, but it's not really far from what happens now! Buyers pay for the pirates (Arrr!). Same thing for mods. People put their time (and sometimes money) in a game they release for free!
Another solution would be to release games on the Internet for nearly nothing. iTunes is the proof it works. Now we only need a iGames.
Whatever you do, the only obstacle is the publisher, they are the greedy pirates (Yaaar!) who feed on the true game makers: the developers. Just eliminate them, by connection the developers to the gamers, and it works just fine
Anyway, the problems with games and music is not the piracy (Yaar!). It's the way they are sold. I've read a article some time ago (on gamasutra) on how games should be sold. Since there is no way you can stop piracy, just stop selling games and music: give them.
Today, one person could buy a game and release it on the internet so everybody can have it for free. And you can't sue them all! of course the game publisher gets ****ed up, but does it really matter? Not really. The publisher doesn't need money, the game developers do. We need a way to pay the developers and get rid of the publishers.
The author of that article suggested a nice system, but I doubt we'll ever see it. A game developer would say "Hey guys, we'd like to make a Diablo 6. Can you give us money". And the willing people would fund the game. Gamers would get a real impact on games this way. They would be involved in the game production in a small way. If enough money is given the game is done and then released freely (or just the price for the support).
This solution is kinda utopic, but it's not really far from what happens now! Buyers pay for the pirates (Arrr!). Same thing for mods. People put their time (and sometimes money) in a game they release for free!
Another solution would be to release games on the Internet for nearly nothing. iTunes is the proof it works. Now we only need a iGames.
Whatever you do, the only obstacle is the publisher, they are the greedy pirates (Yaaar!) who feed on the true game makers: the developers. Just eliminate them, by connection the developers to the gamers, and it works just fine
-Snakebite- said:
I won't buy games that contain such crap periot and I'll talk to everyone I know to not do it either. And, yeah, copy protection is a real hurdle for people who DL hacked releases of the internet...Yours Truly said:
Why are all the games priced the same? How can a bug ridden max 5 hour worth of game time be priced the same as "game of the year" 40+ game hours without serious bugs? I think this is the biggest problem currently. Ofcourse, you can wait for the games to hit the discount bin but then they are outdated (average lifespan of an average game is pretty short, few months tops).
I gladly pay €60-€70 for say a flightsim that keeps me hooked for months, even years. I wouldn't pay the same amount for a simple platform game I'd presumably get for my kid. If the kids game would be more sensible priced, say €20 no problem.
Compared to books (which I buy a lot of) this is done correctly. A mammut book of 1000 pages costs more than your average pocket book of 150 pages. It makes sense. So I spend money on that.
A lot of the games are over hyped, rushed, half finished, have serious bugs/issues and seldom delivers what the fancy cover promises. I'm not rich enough to buy the "goods in a sack" without beeing sure what exactly I'm getting. There are demos, sure, but most of the time the demos are either pure crap and doesn't deliver the true picture of the finished product. Reviews..well, valuable resources and I do spend time reading them, but still, it is opinions of others.
If I buy a new car, I have the chance to do extensive test driving of the product. I can base my opinion of the car based on personal experiences before I do my purchase. This is not possible with games (legally that is).
I have bought games with no prior knowledge other than reviews and demos and never have I been satisfied. Those games gather dust. I have "obtained" games by other means and after given them a proper "test drive" done the purchase and been a happy about it. And played them a lot. Many times, after trying out a game, and found it lacking or bug ridden, I have kept an eye on the patches, tried them out and if those patches have fixed the issues, I have then gone and done the purchase.
And naturally, I have tried out games and found out that they are pure crap and deleted it instantly not given it another thought.
//Kee
I gladly pay €60-€70 for say a flightsim that keeps me hooked for months, even years. I wouldn't pay the same amount for a simple platform game I'd presumably get for my kid. If the kids game would be more sensible priced, say €20 no problem.
Compared to books (which I buy a lot of) this is done correctly. A mammut book of 1000 pages costs more than your average pocket book of 150 pages. It makes sense. So I spend money on that.
A lot of the games are over hyped, rushed, half finished, have serious bugs/issues and seldom delivers what the fancy cover promises. I'm not rich enough to buy the "goods in a sack" without beeing sure what exactly I'm getting. There are demos, sure, but most of the time the demos are either pure crap and doesn't deliver the true picture of the finished product. Reviews..well, valuable resources and I do spend time reading them, but still, it is opinions of others.
If I buy a new car, I have the chance to do extensive test driving of the product. I can base my opinion of the car based on personal experiences before I do my purchase. This is not possible with games (legally that is).
I have bought games with no prior knowledge other than reviews and demos and never have I been satisfied. Those games gather dust. I have "obtained" games by other means and after given them a proper "test drive" done the purchase and been a happy about it. And played them a lot. Many times, after trying out a game, and found it lacking or bug ridden, I have kept an eye on the patches, tried them out and if those patches have fixed the issues, I have then gone and done the purchase.
And naturally, I have tried out games and found out that they are pure crap and deleted it instantly not given it another thought.
//Kee
Maybe some people around here don't realise that producing a game takes a large experienced team years, and those wages need to be paid.
When a game patch removes the CD protection it is usually many months after the game has been released because sales dry up and it won't impact much, it doesn't mean game developers who spend years working on a single product want to give it away for free.
If I couldn't pirate games it wouldn't mean I'd buy every game that I now have, but I would buy a few more here and there. I do however buy a game if I pirated it and then played it heaps.
You may not be stealing a physical object, but you have no right to use a product that costs millions of dollars and thousands of man hours to develop for free. Its like catching a train without buying a ticket, you're using their services without paying, and personally I call that stealing.
Copy protection is a fact of life and is necessary too.
When a game patch removes the CD protection it is usually many months after the game has been released because sales dry up and it won't impact much, it doesn't mean game developers who spend years working on a single product want to give it away for free.
If I couldn't pirate games it wouldn't mean I'd buy every game that I now have, but I would buy a few more here and there. I do however buy a game if I pirated it and then played it heaps.
You may not be stealing a physical object, but you have no right to use a product that costs millions of dollars and thousands of man hours to develop for free. Its like catching a train without buying a ticket, you're using their services without paying, and personally I call that stealing.
Copy protection is a fact of life and is necessary too.