Excessive muzzle climb for zoomed weapons

[Crowze]

I realise what you mean about the scopes being used as a whore weapon, but part of the problem is the huge field of view they give. The G36K's scope is a step in the right direction, and I'll look into making thse adjustments as well (more in line with RAv2, not the G36K).

RC50... is there no way of getting around being able to pick up the weapons immediately? The mod team were thinking of implementing something like that for one of our weapons, but from what you've said I guess it's not a good idea.

 

[Beppo]

Well you can always add a flag/bool to a weapon that says that it cannot be picked up for a specific amount of time. But you would need to check this flag in the pickup functions.
An 'easier' way would be to drop a deco class or something similar that is not recognized as pickup by the pickup codes. This deco version of the weapon then replaces itself after some seconds with the real version of the weapon. So basically to avoid copying dozens of variables you place the original weapon hidden and without collision at the place of the player at the time it is dropped and spawn this deco replacement with a 'link' to the real weapon (an internal var set to the weapon object). Then this deco can simply replace itself with the original again after some seconds have passed.
But as said before... do not add such a feature if noone would ever do this on purpose in RL. Such rare emergency conditions would be abusable easily if the penalty given is not 'high' enough. Maybe let the player hurt his hand that much, that he will not be able to grab any kind of weapon for some seconds too. This is maybe doable by using an internal var that we use to put down the weapons while you use the grab key to ie extract the CD. You can use the INFc_Weapon functions WeaponStayDown() and WeaponBringUp() to control this. Maybe you do not even need to drop the weapon this way. Just put all weapons 'away' for some secs.

 

[geogob]

Actually, no, 38 vs 23 people thought the scopes were fine just the way they are:
http://forums.beyondunreal.com/showthread.php?t=138250&page=1

That interpretation of the poll is flawed. I voted "no" because i don't think they should be made easier. On the other hand, I do not think they are fine.

 

[Vega-don]

the intention to balance such thing as snipers rifles from the hip is a good idea, and i agree it is normal to make things that people wont do in real life not doable.

but some weapons you feared were going to be whore weapons turned out to be weapons that give you a disadvantage at start.
the Acogs and the sniper rifles and the minimi are used by people who want to snipe, who want to have fun with the minimi , but they are not used by anybody who wants an advantage.

in my experience of inf soldier, using a minimi or a scope made me more vulnerable than Any other soldier. the maps /tactics ect play a big role in this to.the engine to ( with a new gen engine, and vegetation everywhere a scope is more usefull to spot an ennemy hidden) and the fuking strafing /m203 abuse too (minimi killer) !
but i had a bad accuracy crouched or stood up too and that doesnt helps.
now i never fired a gun, so if anybody who fired a scope tells me that it is that hard to hit at 50 meters with an acog stand up , or controlling the m249 recoil when crouched or stand up , ill shut up

but i remember in Black hack down americans using m249 like a super assault rifle sometimes

 

[Beppo]

BlackHawkDown... nobody was 'hacking'... well, maybe...

anyway, the Minimi is a support weapon and not an assault rifle and even in the BHD movie it is used as support weapon.
In INF the Minimi is easy to control while NOT running around, even while walking you can fire some threatening bursts into doors, walls and other structures to 'support' your forward movement and your fire team easily. While crouched or prone this thing is really deadly. Maybe you still need some training with it and on how to use it effectively or it simply isn't your type of toy that you will ever get used to. But this has nothing to do with the implementation of the weapon itself. If we would add it unrealisticly, with lower recoil and stuff like that, then everyone would be able to use it in CQB, while running, strafing, sprinting and jumping around easily. That's not how it should be and so it isn't.
The m203 btw is not only a Minimi killer... a skilled player can kill everything with this even while strafing.... but I know enough players that can do headshots with a lot of the rifles while strafing too. And I bet that many can kill a guy lying around with a Minimi somewhere too. It all depends on where you place yourself with a weapon and on how well you are visible while doing so. And this has nothing to do with the Minimi at all.

The ACOGs are used by many and many have enough skill to use them very effectively. Same for standard scopes of course.

People do not use the sniper rifles and the minimi just cause they want to snipe or want to fire hundreds of rounds... they use these weapons cause they like them AND are able to use them effectively.
I don't think that someone would play using a sniper rifle if he is unable to control it. Well, not for too long... as you yourself can proove it.
So, don't generalize the problems you maybe have or maybe see in using these weapons. Many out there managed to develop very high skills on these weapons and I guess they wouldn't use them still if they would not be very effective with'em.
Maybe take a training lesson against someone used to play with a sniper rifle or with a Minimi. I guess you will not be able to beat him/her that easily if he/she is really good with them. (This works for every type of weapon of course, not just sniper rifles and Minimis)

 

[dive]

"I don't think that someone would play using a sniper rifle if he is unable to control it. Well, not for too long..."

Definately agree with Beppo there. Was playing on GD EAS the other day and tried taking a RC50. I've yet to be able to use anything but irons in 2.9, but I had practiced a little offline with the RC50 so I thought I'd give it a go. It was a terribly embarassing episode involving me dying many times and SexPistol yelling "Dive! Dive he's right there! Blow his brains out already!" to which I responded "Trust me, I would if I could aim this blasted thing!" And thus ends my experience trying to play any kind of sniper role in 2.9. I'll just use my irons and advance close enough to be effective with those. I'm happy with that.
I was going to make some remarks on how I wish I could have 2.86 sniper rifles back. But then I realized I was going to say "I was amazing with a robar in .86, and not bad at all with a ACOG either." And then I realized exactly -why- we don't need to revert to .86 style, because everyone and their mother cold use them. The way it is now not everyone on the team take them, and thus you rarely get "sniper fest" maps which I never really enjoyed anyhow.
I'm not nearly as good in 2.9 as I was in 2.86. And while that can be frustrating sometimes, more and more I'm starting to see how that shows 2.9 is superior. I've had to change my tactics and slow down my game a lot, and while 2.9 is certainly not perfect, it's definately a grand step in the right direction. Thanks INF team!

[Note: This isn't to say that I don't think ACOGs and such could use inprovement, but I believe they are better than their overly-simple 2.86 counterparts]

 

[Conglomera]

No Bepp I'm not one of those scope-guys, I simply dislike the way scopes work ingame that's why I generaly don't use them, except on maps where contacts are likely to occure at more than 50-100m. And when I said "l33t ironsights" that's not because I don't like that way of aiming, but it's rather because it is generaly regarded as the l33t way of sighting. And with that features that add "unrealistic" penalities when using scopes (including extra kick and excessive bobing due to breathing) I feel like forced to use ironsights even when scopes are the best choice for a given situation ingame as well as in real life...
And even if ironsights are the prefered way of aiming for most of the ingame situation, I don't like to feel like I'm forced to use them.

In some words I can say that all what I want is realism and only realism, not something to score more frags.

 

[Beppo]

So, tell me/us why you don't like them and how they should work in your opinion. And plz take in mind that they should not be abuseable in terms of 'use a scope, it's a cheap and easy to use crosshair'. Thanks. (and no, this is not meant sarcastic in any way)

 

[Falke]

At the moment 90% of the players are not using Weapons with Acogs. Reasons: If you not always do headshots with them any skilled ironsight user just turn around and kill you before you can fire a second time.
possible solutions:
-A wounding system that reduces the possibility that the victim just turn around and hit you easiliy. (If wounded very heavy weapon bob and increased aiming time)
- make ironsights worser (nearly all INF-Weapons are way to accurate if used in full auto mode)
- reduce reaiming time after the first shot from a scoped weapon

 

[Taque]

Okay, wait, so am I the only person around here who has no problem firing ACOG, irons, snipies and Minimi? I don't really find anything to be really excessive to the point of changing the system that much ... I mean, just hit with your first burst and you don't have much of a problem.

And for the record, people who play with me know how much I love teh RC50. However, I don't use it until I have trouble actually seeing the target with irons as I find irons vastly superior in most situations.

Oh, and aren't irons just a mutated form of a crosshair?

 

[Derelan]

So, tell me/us why you don't like them and how they should work in your opinion. And plz take in mind that they should not be abuseable in terms of 'use a scope, it's a cheap and easy to use crosshair'. Thanks. (and no, this is not meant sarcastic in any way)

Well for one, it isn't very rewarding when you pick off a shot. You basically have good timing with the sway, or you're patient enough to constantly press alt-fire over and over. I would like to see a system in which everything is pro-intuitive; if you are patient and logical, the sniper rifle works for you. If you don't have the time to get it to work, it misses.

 

[Lt.]

At the moment 90% of the players are not using Weapons with Acogs. Reasons: If you not always do headshots with them any skilled ironsight user just turn around and kill you before you can fire a second time.

possible solutions:
-its your own damn fault. get better.

"zomg, i missed teh headsh00t" might mean that scopes should be reworked, but it probably just means you aimed for the head and missed. when using ironsights I fire for center of mass and when I use an ACOG, I dont change my technique.
I try to put quick series of shots, interspersed with breath holding, into the chest. 3-7 rounds to the chest are better then 3-7 missed headshots.




___________________
EDIT: wait, Derelan, are you pro-2.9 scopes or against?
I can't tell which way you lean with:
"I would like to see a system in which everything is pro-intuitive; if you are patient and logical, the sniper rifle works for you.",
because it seems to describe the current system quite well.

 

[Derelan]

possible solutions:
-its your own damn fault. get better.

"zomg, i missed teh headsh00t" might mean that scopes should be reworked, but it probably just means you aimed for the head and missed. when using ironsights I fire for center of mass and when I use an ACOG, I dont change my technique.
I try to put quick series of shots, interspersed with breath holding, into the chest. 3-7 rounds to the chest are better then 3-7 missed headshots.

You missed the point. When you can't account for parralax, even though its there, you can't GET better. And who doesn't fire for the center mass, other than those who aim for legs?

___________________
EDIT: wait, Derelan, are you pro-2.9 scopes or against?
I can't tell which way you lean with:
"I would like to see a system in which everything is pro-intuitive; if you are patient and logical, the sniper rifle works for you.",
because it seems to describe the current system quite well.

Eh, I have visions of ways I think it should work, mostly from reading War Of The Rats, I just dont think they are codeable.

 

[- Lich -]

I did not like these scopes at the beginning. Too much bob, and very difficult to move with, even slow.

Then somewhen while training with them I got above a certain training level. And from there on I did not have problems anymore.

They require more training than the iron sight weapons. As does the minimi. The later I still cannot use too well, but there are guys out there who can. And this is good. Most people in any army out there are using plain irons, a lot less scopes or machineguns. This is the case in INF, too and I like it this way. Train with any of these weapons, and you will see how easy they are to use.

To the scope paralax: It is not random, try it with a sig and LAM offline. It just highly depends on your stamina level. And when there are guys running around with a psg and an akmsu as backup, I know why they cannot hit anything. When you want to snipe, keep your stamina bar full.

 

[Crowze]

Hey, I'm getting quite good with my PSG/AK loadout . Used to prefer the RC50, but with my lag these days I often need a second or third shot lined up quickly.

Apart from what's already been discussed (i.e. muzzle climb), I think the scopes FOV is a bit too much - maybe not the ACOGs, but the RC50 and PSG are too easy to use for spotting and sniping. Yes, it's another thing I'm working on for my upcoming mutator.

Me <3 RAv2

 

[Beppo]

@Derelan, sorry but I don't know how to interpret your comments into a system of how the scopes should work. If you may specify exactly what you want to see changed, thx.

@Crowze, two things that you use the same term for... FOV. FOV is the general FieldOfView, sure, but in UT the FOV describes the 'zoom-level' to put it simple. Maybe call it visible area of the screen or scope view radius/circle or something alike.

@Falke, it is easy to keep a burst on target while using an ACOG. You just have to counter the recoil a bit more than with iron sights. I guess you know that you can counter the recoil effect by using your mouse. So train to counter it even a bit more while using an ACOG and that's it. And as Lich already said... watch your stamina. If the stamina bar is full then you can easily hit a target with an ACOG even without controlling your breathing.

 

[Derelan]

For 1: Much much less or no parralax. I tried getting parralax with my scope-on-wooden-board, and the view just went blank. I did have that much sway when standing, but none of it had parallax.

Second, i think there should be intertia in the scope when you have steadied your breath. When you are trying to balance every muscle so that the scope doesn't move, you cannot quickly move it to another point.

 

[Nukeproof]

At the moment 90% of the players are not using Weapons with Acogs. Reasons: If you not always do headshots with them any skilled ironsight user just turn around and kill you before you can fire a second time.
possible solutions:
-A wounding system that reduces the possibility that the victim just turn around and hit you easiliy. (If wounded very heavy weapon bob and increased aiming time)
- make ironsights worser (nearly all INF-Weapons are way to accurate if used in full auto mode)
- reduce reaiming time after the first shot from a scoped weapon

I agree with Falke,

at distances where an ACOG makes sense, only the first shot of a burst would be on target. (So it neither makes sense nor is realistic to fire bursts). All 5.56 Rifles need 3 hits at Level IIIa to kill.

It' ll take 2-3 seconds to fire another wellaimed shot (you are most likely dead before). So you are better off sticking to iron sights because re-aim will take just a split of a second, even if the hitrate is worse.

 

[Rostam]

I'll just go totally off topic and add that I think all hits should "kill" as no soldier, AFAIK, would continue to fight if shot. Even if it would be just a finger, I know I would have it checked out before going back to the fight at least. Armor should prevent death, it shouldn't make you rambo.

Sorry for going off topic, my 2 cents are of a different kind I guess.

 

[Crowze]

Sorry, wasn't very specific. I was actually referring to both the viewable area and the magnification, which IMO are too large and too low, respectively.