ant75 said:
I tried designing a game, and I tried putting in all the "dream features" and "This isn't realistic, I'll change it!". It ended up sucking, it played alot like RO3.0
Excessive muzzle climb for zoomed weapons
- Thread starter Conglomera
- Start date
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I tried designing a game, and I tried putting in all the "dream features" and "This isn't realistic, I'll change it!". It ended up sucking, it played alot like RO3.0
Reality is not balanced. Reality is itself. You are referring to the dynamic of how things are in relation to each other in reality, as opposed to the game.
So called game 'balance' is how you achieve that dynamic. It's also how you can destroy it in favor of something else. Balance is a process.
This game's weapon handling is quite nearly the same as every other FPS in the market. Only through careful 'balancing' can they even achieve what anyone could consider close to realism.
So called game 'balance' is how you achieve that dynamic. It's also how you can destroy it in favor of something else. Balance is a process.
This game's weapon handling is quite nearly the same as every other FPS in the market. Only through careful 'balancing' can they even achieve what anyone could consider close to realism.
Derelan said:
theire was attributes coded to make it "not a whore weapon" , on purpose. but it ended up making the gun not as good as it should be.
ant75 said:
I didn't hear anyone who is really happy with the current system but if I asked people most suggested to change it into different directions.
That said, I think Rav3 has a pretty nice approach.
Nukeproof said:
Actually, no, 38 vs 23 people thought the scopes were fine just the way they are:
http://forums.beyondunreal.com/showthread.php?t=138250&page=1
That poll isn't really relevant, it's about the general ease of use, not specifically the muzzle climb. I'll look at the code tomorrow and see exactly what the values are for scoped and unscoped weapons. I'm willing to side with Tiffy if this is true, and it's something I'll see about addressing in mutator form.
There's always room for improvement in any system, but compared to the 2.86 scopes 2.9 is wonderful.
There's always room for improvement in any system, but compared to the 2.86 scopes 2.9 is wonderful.
Beppo
Infiltration Lead-Programmer
some things...
the kick was 'adjusted' to fit better to the scoped view and maybe we even added a bit of kick to balance the whole thing, really cannot remember cause this decission was made some years ago. If you really want to use the same value, then simply set the ScopeKickMod property to zero. But imo this really doesn't need to be changed at all.
the 'paralax' effect you see is what makes your typical scope 'crosshair' NOT showing you the actual location that you will fire at while your scope is swinging around. This resulting firing offset is NOT done randomly. Hold a scope angled and you will never hit what you are aiming at. This is no aimpoint device, it's a standard scope. Without controling your breathing you simply hold the weapon angled, so it will not hit where your scope 'crosshair' is pointing at.
You guys sound like half-converted CS players that would like to use scopes as their crosshair replacement. A scope reticle is NOT a crosshair.
And I would like to hear what you think is balanced for the Minimi??
the kick was 'adjusted' to fit better to the scoped view and maybe we even added a bit of kick to balance the whole thing, really cannot remember cause this decission was made some years ago. If you really want to use the same value, then simply set the ScopeKickMod property to zero. But imo this really doesn't need to be changed at all.
the 'paralax' effect you see is what makes your typical scope 'crosshair' NOT showing you the actual location that you will fire at while your scope is swinging around. This resulting firing offset is NOT done randomly. Hold a scope angled and you will never hit what you are aiming at. This is no aimpoint device, it's a standard scope. Without controling your breathing you simply hold the weapon angled, so it will not hit where your scope 'crosshair' is pointing at.
You guys sound like half-converted CS players that would like to use scopes as their crosshair replacement. A scope reticle is NOT a crosshair.
And I would like to hear what you think is balanced for the Minimi??
Beppo said:
I assumed that since laser attachments fly around randomly when parralax occurs, that the bullets' vector would too. That, and i found it alot easier and more intuitive when i tried to compensate for parralax using RAv3 than i did without.
Here we got a game that should be as close as possible to reality, so realism must prevail over other stuffs like gameplay or balancing... that's my opinion! And adding kick to your scoped weapons as some sort of punishment because you're not using the l33t ironsights, is definitely lame. This sort of balancing completely sucks!
The bullet vectors are basically the same as the laser. (not the aimpoint)Derelan said:
I don't think RAv3 had parrallax.
Beppo said:
From what I've read (I never had even a distant look at the real gun, so I can't judge) the inability to fire very short bursts and the relatively strong recoil when proning and using bipods are looked at as 'balancing' by most players.
Since I 'trained' to use very short burst with every weapon #1 makes my curse every now and then when I use the Minimi
Strong recoil while proned? I guess that's maybe a subjective thing because I find when proned, the Minimi (even on High setting) is 100% controllable. I even find it more controllable than the AK when proned, but that could just be one of Beppo's jedi mind tricks.
Quotet from Meplat
----------------------------
geogob- the MINIMI and M249 is one of the most amazingly plesant belt fed MG's I've ever fired. Recoil in the traditional sense is all but nonexistant. The little monster vibrates a lot, making the actual holding of a sight picture challenging, but not impossible. Shouldered fire, assault fire, and slung hip are very easy. Belt swaps are quick, and changes from belt box, to box magazine are intuitive and fast.
Maintenance is a dream. extend the bipod fully,open the feed cover, clear and pull the pin affixing the buttstock to the reciever. Pivot the buttstock down forming a "tripod".
Give the spring/buffer guide a 1/8 turn, and it'll pop out under mild pressure. Drag the bolt carrier out, separate the bolt from the carrier (Like an inverted AK). Pop the pin at the rear of the pistol grip, and the FCS will pivot forward and out.
Push the barrel catch forward, and jiggle the barrel forward. It's been a snug but not tight fit in all I've handled, but wiggling gets farther than the old BREN "slap".
The only faults I've noticed with the 249, or the MINIMI is that both are intolerant of ".223 Remington" commercial ammo (55 grain fodder, with light Ruger Mini 14 grade loads) unless you open up the gas port.
The gun, in game is close enough for me, although the belt change is a wee bit slow. starter tabs on the belt would negate the need to open the feed cover . You'd stuff the tab in the left side, drag it right til it stopped, jack the charging handle back, and go to town.
The in game 249/MINIMI is in my opinion more challenging to fire than the real thing. (All the better!)
The "loaded" flag is missing. No big deal. I had to point it out to most users as "being a useful option, indicating that three rounds linked remain" blah blah blah. Basically it's to keep you from trying to jam a magazine in while there are still rounds in the feed tray.
Kind of got off the subject there, but what the hell.
Meplat-
---------------------
I never said its wrong/bad/impropper, I just summed up what I recalled on the topic minimi-balancing/realism...
----------------------------
geogob- the MINIMI and M249 is one of the most amazingly plesant belt fed MG's I've ever fired. Recoil in the traditional sense is all but nonexistant. The little monster vibrates a lot, making the actual holding of a sight picture challenging, but not impossible. Shouldered fire, assault fire, and slung hip are very easy. Belt swaps are quick, and changes from belt box, to box magazine are intuitive and fast.
Maintenance is a dream. extend the bipod fully,open the feed cover, clear and pull the pin affixing the buttstock to the reciever. Pivot the buttstock down forming a "tripod".
Give the spring/buffer guide a 1/8 turn, and it'll pop out under mild pressure. Drag the bolt carrier out, separate the bolt from the carrier (Like an inverted AK). Pop the pin at the rear of the pistol grip, and the FCS will pivot forward and out.
Push the barrel catch forward, and jiggle the barrel forward. It's been a snug but not tight fit in all I've handled, but wiggling gets farther than the old BREN "slap".
The only faults I've noticed with the 249, or the MINIMI is that both are intolerant of ".223 Remington" commercial ammo (55 grain fodder, with light Ruger Mini 14 grade loads) unless you open up the gas port.
The gun, in game is close enough for me, although the belt change is a wee bit slow. starter tabs on the belt would negate the need to open the feed cover . You'd stuff the tab in the left side, drag it right til it stopped, jack the charging handle back, and go to town.
The in game 249/MINIMI is in my opinion more challenging to fire than the real thing. (All the better!)
The "loaded" flag is missing. No big deal. I had to point it out to most users as "being a useful option, indicating that three rounds linked remain" blah blah blah. Basically it's to keep you from trying to jam a magazine in while there are still rounds in the feed tray.
Kind of got off the subject there, but what the hell.
Meplat-
---------------------
I never said its wrong/bad/impropper, I just summed up what I recalled on the topic minimi-balancing/realism...
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Yep, just found the ScopeKickMod. I know about tha parralax, that's why I said the scopes are far better than 2.86 ones, but this is about the kick.
Minimi... recoild a bit too much, and the 'cooling-off' time between bursts. Also, not being able to aim while jogging, although I'm told it's just not done IRL but it is possible. I'll draw the line on that one though.
EDIT: Damn, missed this whole page.
Minimi... recoild a bit too much, and the 'cooling-off' time between bursts. Also, not being able to aim while jogging, although I'm told it's just not done IRL but it is possible. I'll draw the line on that one though.
EDIT: Damn, missed this whole page.
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I know Rostam, I was making a point. Anyway, I never found the 'cooldown' time on the Minimi very disabling, either - just gotta hit with the first burst. In any case, it wasn't really put in INF to be an assault rifle with a ridiculous amount of ammo ... So don't use it like one!
Anyway, I never found the 'cooldown' time on the Minimi very disabling, either - just gotta hit with the first burst. In any case, it wasn't really put in INF to be an assault rifle with a ridiculous amount of ammo ... So don't use it like one!
Beppo
Infiltration Lead-Programmer
[edit] missed a whole page too ... this is a direct reply to the last post on the 1st page[/edit]
hellohooo.... the extra kick is not as if you would fire up in the sky with your second shot or something alike. It is just a bit more to see the scopes as scopes and not as simple crosshair replacements for folks that need the stuff.
Many used the scopes even in CQB cause it was some sort of crosshair for them... something we had to balance cause iron sights always have an advantage over scopes and even ACOGs in CQB. So, to get the folks away from their crosshair abusage this was a valid balancing issue. Cause folks that use the scopes/ACOGs for what they were desgned for do not need to fire a dozen shots into their target on close range nor try to.
And cause you call them 133t iron sights I guess you are one of those crosshair guys... if not then I don't see the point of you complaining at all.
[edit] balancing is sometimes needed to stop specific features from being abused and so such things are always ok, even if we want to go for realism. Realism doesn't stand for 'I can do this in real life too' it stands more for 'I can AND would do this in real life too'. So balancing sometimes has to done to press players into a realistic role even if the game would allow them to play unrealisticly.
Bunny hopping and circle strafing for example are things you can do in many FPS out there but noone would do such crazy stuff in a real firefight simply cause you would not survive this. Stuff like weapon balancing stops players from abusing specific weapons for stuff that they would never do in RL due to several reasons. Ie the sniper rifles... well in RL you would only use them 'at hip' in a very very high emergency situation and you would hurt yourself most times. But in a game a bit health loss will not stop you from doing so if you can kill your enemy this way. Not even dropping the weapon really helped as we did for the RC.50. People simply made a key bind that allowed them to fire the weapon at hip and grab it directly after firing automatically. That's what a game can do but you not in RL.
So balancing is a valid option to block players from abusing features. No matter what the real world would be able to do. Sure, we need to stay in realistic borders, and that's what we do in 99% of the cases.[/edit]
[edit2]To the minimi... compared to ALL other weapons within the game the recoil while proned is almost non-existant or so low that it is cheese to control. You can fire 200+ shots while prone without the recoil going crazy. The 'lag' between the bursts is showing up due to teh animations 'running out' and we left it in after adjusting it, testing and then finding it too 'whoreable'. The Minimi is a support weapon and not meant as a CQB assault rifle. That's how it works in game and it is good this way.[/edit2]
hellohooo.... the extra kick is not as if you would fire up in the sky with your second shot or something alike. It is just a bit more to see the scopes as scopes and not as simple crosshair replacements for folks that need the stuff.
Many used the scopes even in CQB cause it was some sort of crosshair for them... something we had to balance cause iron sights always have an advantage over scopes and even ACOGs in CQB. So, to get the folks away from their crosshair abusage this was a valid balancing issue. Cause folks that use the scopes/ACOGs for what they were desgned for do not need to fire a dozen shots into their target on close range nor try to.
And cause you call them 133t iron sights I guess you are one of those crosshair guys... if not then I don't see the point of you complaining at all.
[edit] balancing is sometimes needed to stop specific features from being abused and so such things are always ok, even if we want to go for realism. Realism doesn't stand for 'I can do this in real life too' it stands more for 'I can AND would do this in real life too'. So balancing sometimes has to done to press players into a realistic role even if the game would allow them to play unrealisticly.
Bunny hopping and circle strafing for example are things you can do in many FPS out there but noone would do such crazy stuff in a real firefight simply cause you would not survive this. Stuff like weapon balancing stops players from abusing specific weapons for stuff that they would never do in RL due to several reasons. Ie the sniper rifles... well in RL you would only use them 'at hip' in a very very high emergency situation and you would hurt yourself most times. But in a game a bit health loss will not stop you from doing so if you can kill your enemy this way. Not even dropping the weapon really helped as we did for the RC.50. People simply made a key bind that allowed them to fire the weapon at hip and grab it directly after firing automatically. That's what a game can do but you not in RL.
So balancing is a valid option to block players from abusing features. No matter what the real world would be able to do. Sure, we need to stay in realistic borders, and that's what we do in 99% of the cases.[/edit]
[edit2]To the minimi... compared to ALL other weapons within the game the recoil while proned is almost non-existant or so low that it is cheese to control. You can fire 200+ shots while prone without the recoil going crazy. The 'lag' between the bursts is showing up due to teh animations 'running out' and we left it in after adjusting it, testing and then finding it too 'whoreable'. The Minimi is a support weapon and not meant as a CQB assault rifle. That's how it works in game and it is good this way.[/edit2]
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