Enhancement idea for Loadout System flaw

[Craetech]

From the posts of many forumers here, it seems the current 2.9 loadout system is "imperfect". Some about too much freedom of choice in weapon selection, some about a 99 40mm loadout, etc.

While I strongly believe in freedom of choice, and that the bulk system is prefect to limit that "freedom" realistically, every player should be able to equip any weapon to their liking. A team shouldn't be limited to only one type of weapon per team. And then some complain about having too much firepower..

So I propose an idea that is more realistic and improves gameplay on top of the bulk system limitation -- equipment compartments (pouches, dropdowns, etc.). Right now, "bulk" is more like "weight". Realistically speaking, how can anyone carry 99 40mms in terms of "where to put it"?? The backpack isn't accessible at all in a firefight.. Why not create compartments for small items, i.e. magazines, grenades, 40mms, etc. as in RL? And any soldier would have normally enough space for, say, 10 compartments, disregarding what you want to fill them with. You cannot pickup anymore unless you have an empty compartment (discarded depleted mag, used frag, etc.).

While I'm at it, every soldier should also have one holster, so should be able to equip only one sidearm. And as for primary weapons, I suppose two should be the max.. one on back, and one in front.

This system should work hand-in-hand with the bulk system.

 

[Crowze]

It's already been said, a hardpoint system is planned for the next version of Inf.

 

[chuckus]

Well theoretically you could put anything that you couldn't put in a Vest or webbing compartment into a patrol pack. Just up the time it takes to get it out. So if you have 6 pistols only one would be able to be pulled from the holster and the others you have to take out of the pack.... which in RL is a death sentence.

 

[sir_edmond]

Actually the Bulk value itself is a bit unrealistic, think about it...
Why the hell is your stamina defined by your bulk......
Should it define the stamina usage instead?

 

[Craetech]

Originally Posted by Crowze
It's already been said, a hardpoint system is planned for the next version of Inf.

You mean INF 2.9.1, right?
Seriously though, could this be in the form of mutator since it'll be a looong way for INF: Source? It'll be good to see how this effects gameplay on servers now, and if it proves to be the solution/enhancement, then SS could further develop into it. Otherwise, SS should just scrap the idea and concentrate on something else (like Fedora Core is to Red Hat).

Originally Posted by siredmond
Why the hell is your stamina defined by your bulk......
Should it define the stamina usage instead?

You're right. An over-encumbered soldier should start out fresh, but tire-out quickly after a few steps. Maybe they should also be forced to crouch or even prone depending on how over-encumbered he/she is.

I'm wondering how come the "bulk" indicator is inverted? If it's a measurement of "bulk" (and not "agility"), shouldn't it only fill-up when you're encumbered? And start from green on the left and turn to red on the right? It also seems to only show measurement once a certain treshold has been reached. IMO, an empty bar (no bulk) should have a value of zero and a full bar (over-bulked) be a value of, say, 90 (subject to testing of course). So an ideal bulk would have the indicator being "balanced", i.e. showing half-full (around bulk of 45 - 50).

 

[Meplat]

If you have a bunch of junk attached to your ruck, regardless of weight, you WILL have problems moving. Think of the "bulk" factor that way.

 

[Craetech]

Well, yeah, I know the term "bulk" is more a "size" thing than "weight". According to what you're saying, the soldier should move in a rather awkward manner causing him/her to tire quicker and move slower than others. Forget about my crouch/prone statement. ;p

My last point was merely a HUD issue. Imagine a car where it's fuel gauge has it's needle moving upwards as the tank get empty..

 

[keihaswarrior]

Beppo and I had a long heated arguement about what you are refering to. Yes, bulk should increase the RATE at which stamina is used, NOT the total available..... 'Course, Beppo disagreed.

I think Beppo's main beef with allowing players carrying almost nothing to move faster than those carring medium bulk amounts, is that it would encourage players to carry loadout so light that they are unrealistic. I think that is a small problem, and one that could be overcome.

Oh, and a hardpoint system would rock of course.

 

[sir_edmond]

Of coarse then you have problems with sniper rifles, why cant i hold them still if i just got deployed, from a chopper.

All in all the medium and heavy values are too low, the game would be slightly better if they were moved up by 5.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

I think Beppo's main beef with allowing players carrying almost nothing to move faster than those carring medium bulk amounts, is that it would encourage players to carry loadout so light that they are unrealistic. I think that is a small problem, and one that could be overcome.

You mean, like UN17. He moves way faster than the rest of Inf soldiers, thanks to his light loadouts (only 2 pistols as weapons, i think).

 

[Psychomorph]

Could you remind me what hard point is?

 

[keihaswarrior]

You mean, like UN17. He moves way faster than the rest of Inf soldiers, thanks to his light loadouts (only 2 pistols as weapons, i think).

You may think that UN17 moves faster... except he doesn't. He just knows the map really well, conserves stamina etc.

If you take only a knife you will move the same EXACT speed as someone with an M16, 5 mags, llla armor, helmet, and 3 nades...... which I think is unrealistic.

On the other side, players can't carry realistic loadouts without moving like turtles. M16A2 w/7 mags, M203 w/12 40mm's, M9 w/2 mags, llla vest, Helmet, 3 nades, 1 WS, 1 signal flare...... this is a realistic loadout, but you will move slow as **** if you try to carry it all.

 

[N'kEnNy]

Personally (the only oppinion I can reliably express *wink*) I'd love to see a Hard-point system in the game. The fact of the matter is however that if I have any annoyance with the Infiltration equipment system it is the availability of speciality equipment like Grenade Launchers, Machineguns and even sniper rifles. Particulary Grenade launchers.

I'm admittedly a newb, but I can see the many tactical advantages of carrying a "GL". It does cry out for some realism and balance. Surely not everyone and their mothers carry Grenade Launchers in (most) modern armies?

---------
Stamina System. I find the current stamina system somewhat obscure. I rarely carry enough equipment to actually lower my Stamina. As a casual infiltration player I'll just say that the Stamina system (in my mind) works. It could probably be improved, but for now? I'd say it works.

 

[Burger]

how about 8 pouches: 2 on you chest, four on the front, and 2 on the back of you belt.

2 x magazine/ 4 x 40mm /3 x m67 limit in each pouch. Maybe a Rainbow six 3 type loadout manager, with a picture of the INF soldier, and the 'slot 1/slot 2/slot 3... etc?

My friend has a demo of HL2 and when you open Steam, there's a '3rd part games' (or something like it). Is that where INF is gonna show up?

Judging by screenshots, the HL2 reincarnation of INF is gonna be great, but can we be sure that it could be played by a large amount of people with a variety of net connections/ computer strengths...?

 

[Craetech]

Originally Posted by keihaswarrior
I think Beppo's main beef with allowing players carrying almost nothing to move faster than those carring medium bulk amounts, is that it would encourage players to carry loadout so light that they are unrealistic.

Instead of lighter equals faster, probably three fixed speed levels should be good; light for faster speed but less firepower and protection (based on bulk of course) so the "scout" has a lower life-expectancy, and heavy for slower, m249/m203 wielding support personnel. medium should be a good balance between the two, so normally would be the loadout of choice. also, the variance between the speeds should be small but noticable. Therefore a kabar only loadout would be similar in speed to the MP5-40 (retractable stock) with a coupla mags only loadout since they both fall under "light" despite their bulk differences.

How about adding a jingling sound effect of your equipment based on your bulk when moving and/or changing stance? Together with your footstep sounds, they both should produce more noise, be louder and audible over larger distances when your bulk is high. Stance and movement mode, of course, still plays here.

 

[Craetech]

N'kEnNy: I sort of agree there.. there *must* be a reason in RL squads do not carry an m203 each member. That same reason could be applied to INF. For example, the hardpoints system could reduce the use of the m203 because out of 10 (or 8) hardpoints:

1. M16 mag
2. M16 mag
3. M16 mag
4. M16 mag
5. 1911 mag
6. 1911 mag
7. M67 frag
8. M67 frag
9. Smoke nade
10. 40mm HE

.. (above just for example, but you get the point) there isn't much space to carry many 40mms or any at all unless you sacrifice a few M16 mags reducing your capabilities as a rifleman and increasing your role as an m203 grenadier.

The SAW could be made "less favourite" by making it more difficult to use, as in making the aim-view very close to the eye so the surrounding view is obstructed by the weapon. This is also good as it makes using the SAW difficult in CQB but more effective in medium/long range as it should be.

I think the sniper rifles are nicely balanced now that you can't fire hipped.

---

Burger: Well, IMO, I don't like limits to what you can carry for mags, nades, and 40mms specifically. This is just like putting invisible walls in maps.. no explanation why you can't get there. I prefer player choice freedom within reasonable constraints. Vest compartments disregarding what's inside is freedom and realistic. Just my opinion.

 

[N'kEnNy]

Craetech
I don't think the best approach of balancing it is to add odd balancing factors. Or limit the "effectiveness" of a Grenadier.

Server settings limiting the weapons(for each team) would be fine, preferably depending on how many players there are on.

K.I.S.S


I suspect that not many inf players would not exactly be 'facinated' that because they joined late in the round, they didn't get "their" weapon selection

 

[Taque]

This is sounding a lot like MechWarrior ... However, that system did work very well for balance.

 

[Craetech]

lol. Now you'd mention it, "hardpoint" *does* sound like a MechWarrior term..

N'kEnNy, you can't exactly say the grenadier's "effectiveness" is limited here as it's totally up to the player. This system is very very indirectly a class system, except it's not the chosen class that dictates what you can/can't equip but what you equip that determines what you are. So you wouldn't be considered a grenadier if you're not loaded with 40mms.. you are a grenadier *because* you're loaded with 40mms, thus making you effectively a grenadier. Just remove 2 x M16 mags, 1 x 1911 mag, and 1 x Smoke nade from the example loadout mentioned (stuff you wouldn't need as a grenadier), and you'd be able to load up a total of five 40mm HEs.

Concept is simple; more M16 mags equals less 40mms, more 40mms equals less M16 mags, carry a balance of both and you'd be jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none. This is just an example, of course you should be able to carry any thing and any combo you want. Hope this clears things up.

As it is, a player is easily a rifleman, a grenadier and a marksman all at once. Carrying with him/her adequate ammo for all three weapons and then some more M67s. Is INF about being a one-man-show (like, dare I say it, CS)? This hardpoints system encourages teamwork in a I-scratch-your-back-you-scratch-mine sorta way, for example pairing up a rifleman and a grenadier together. Teamplay is not forced in any way.

P/S: It'd be mighty-frustrating that you can't equip a weapon just because! ;p

 

[keihaswarrior]

Well, now I think the discussion is moving away from bulk/stamina and more towards the age old question: "Who is the INF soldier?" Why is he allowed to carry whatever he wants?.... If he is a US army grunt, then he should have restrictions akin to America's Army. If he is a merc, shouldn't there be a team limit on money or something....

I think we need to answer that question before we discuss loadout restrictions and a class system.