DS vs PSP

[Rostam]

DeM, see the bigger picture. Let's take an RPG as an example, you could have the actual rpg on one screen, map or inventory on the other. To quickly use a potion you could tap it on the inventory.
Also like I said the DS has shoulder pads so there are atleast 2 buttons you can press at all times (except when holding the pen to draw stuff in the drawing program, then you can only press one shoulder pad).

 

[DeMachina]

Oh boy, I can take a potion fast, sure worth all that money! Pointless gimmic. You could take that potion fast with one big touch screen too...

I'd rather have that money go toward a bigger screen/better hardware. But that's just me.

Got this from bluesnews dot com, new PSP screen and info that GT4 on PSP will be the same as GT4 on PS2.

 

[Rostam]

You could take that potion fast with one big touch screen too...

I already stated why that would not be a good option, DeM. Money being one of the reasons. Still, you seem to say quite honestly you just want a ghrapical beast you can use on the go.

 

[DeMachina]

Actually, what I want is an handheld with usefull feature. I want a PocketPC (or atleast music/video trough some widely available memory card (eg: SD card)) with good games and better pad/buttons. Both fail at that. However, if I had to choose between an analog pad/bigger screen/better hardware or two smaller screen(one touchscreen))/voice recognition, I'd take the PSP.

 

[chuckus]

i dunno. I think the argument that PSP and DS have two different game genres in mind is my selling point. I do'nt want a mini home console. I want a pocket machine with pocket games. Games designed for the machine or portability in mind. Not Games rehashed to fit the portable standard.

And the hardware argument i meaningless. Classic examples of machines that were more powerful but crappier than their weaker counterparts. Game boy vs Game gear (much like the psp it had tons of features that sounded good but we're lame in practice). PS1 vs. N64. Playstation was the weaker machine but we all saw where that went. I'm sure many of you console Gurus can fill in the blanks for me. The fact of the matter is Sony is goign against a company that has held down the portable game machine market since it's jump from ****ty Double Dragon "tiger" games to an actual hand held console. Sony is making alot of the mistakes Nintendo, Sega and countless other companies made years ago. Nintendo has had the benefit of learning from those mistakes. I can see the psp being a valid contender but I believe Nintendo will come out on top again.

 

[Rostam]

Best post so far... I tried to explain some points you mentioned as well but my weak English skillz did not allow it.

But looks like most people aren't going to get a handheld, ever for some reason. I find it strange that you are ready to exclude it that easily, but I guess there are reasons for it.

 

[Keiichi]

'useful' features like watching a dvd on a tiny screen ... for 2-3 hours ?
So you've got to change batteries after watching Lord of the Rings ?
Never mind that you won't be able to read subtitles at that size ...

The PSP's screen is 4.5" diagonal. My first portable DVD player was only 5" diagonal and you could easily read subtitles at that size.

What use is Wifi on a handheld device ?

I don't know, what use is the GBA's link cable?

And what music format is Sony using ?

ATRAC3 Plus, AAC and MP3, uploaded to memory sticks via USB 2.0.

Yes. It's a portable, it doesn't need top notch hardware. It does not need a huge screen, it does not need a DVD player. Granted if you can make it, why not. But right now it goes against the idea of portable for being so large. I can't find the previous I used to see how big it was, but someone was holding it in his hands and it looked about twice the size of my wallet. Perhaps not in all 3 dimensions, but it still wouldn't fit in my pocket.

Actually, the two things that 90% of handheld gamers ask for are more powerful hardware and a larger screen, so where you get the idea that such things are irrelevant is beyond me. I don't know of anyone who asked for two screens and a stylus, hence my "solution for a problem no one had" remark.

And, again, where do you get off saying it's "so large"? The official dimensions released by Sony make it shorter and thinner than a GBA and only 1.5" longer. You yourself said that the GBA was able to fit in your pocket. As such, the PSP should be able to fit in your pocket, even if the end sticks out a bit (which it shouldn't, since I can fit my GBA easily in my pocket with several inches of clearance).

Whoever was holding it in your picture must've either been a child or had very small hands. Either that or it was an early model, because Sony's released specs tell a different story.

Actually those are features I've been waiting for for ages.

Really? Being able to control Samus Aran with a stylus pen is something you've been waiting for for ages? I say again, such things are gimmicks, just like maracas and dance pads and the Power Glove and, yes, even the Eye Toy. Or like my Steel Battalion controller, which now sits on a table in the corner of my room, gathering dust, not having been used in months. They're neat little things that might be fun to play around with once or twice but, aside from the one game they were actually designed for and perhaps a handful of token mini-games created to justify their existence, don't really serve any purpose.

Better hardware is good and all for PC's, but it's different for consoles and espescially different for portables.

I'm sorry, weren't you just the one waving around the fact that the DS was almost capable of GameCube graphics as one of the high points of the system? And now you say that hardware doesn't matter?

If hardware doesn't matter, then the GBA serves no purpose. We could all be perfectly content playing our black and white GameBoys with NES-quality graphics. Now, since we're all obvious not content to play our original GameBoys, I'd say that hardware does in fact matter for a portable.

Let's not forget that both the xbox and gamecube are more powerful than the PS2, yet the PS2 is still most popular for a reason.

Yes, the PS2 is more popular. And the reason being because Sony has the games people want to play. Games which will likely be translated over to the PSP.

And the GameCube is dead last. What does that tell you about Nintendo's "great lineup"?

Nintendo is the undisputed kind of handhelds, there's no denying that. But they've been a success primarily because they've never had any serious competition. Sony came into the cosole race a decade ago as a newcommer and in only a few short years established itself as the leading console manufacturer. The PS2 leads the pack by miles and the Sony brandname is recognized worldover. Don't think that doesn't count for something, and don't think they're going to let the PSP go down without a fight.

Sony's already beaten Nintendo in the big leagues. Now they're gunning for the handheld crown.

And this is where I must say that what you are saying is complete bollocks. It's not inventing a solution for a problem no one had, it is using current technology to enhance gameplay. Those things are not just gimmicks, if they were they would just call it the next generation GameBoy and get some money out of it.

How many games do you think will actually take advantage of dual screens and a stylus and voice recognition in ways that really justify their use? Sure, I could take my hand off the controls, pick up my stylus pen, cycle down through my inventory and tap the potion I want to use, but I could also pause the game, open my inventory, cycle down the list with my D-pad and select the same potion with the A button in probably the same or less time, and without the hassle of having to take my hands off the controls (while the game is still running in realtime, I might add, since we all know you won't need to pause the action when you've got two screens) and go fetch a useless peripheral.

I say again, solution for a problem no one had.

-Keiichi

 

[Freon]

chuckus you're forgetting one major thing: everything Sony touches turn into gold. The PSP will sell, millions and millions.


Also DeMachina, a PDA is not that good for games, I find it very hard playing Doom on that like 4 directions pad and even Quake 1 is a bit slow. Other games (like Lucasart classics via ScummVM work very well though) I'd wait a bit if I were you

 

[Rostam]

Well alot of repetition there. Where to start... First of all you don't need a pen to use touchscreen, but sometimes it can be more accurate for things like drawing so you would want to use it. But it's not needed.

I'm sorry, weren't you just the one waving around the fact that the DS was almost capable of GameCube graphics as one of the high points of the system? And now you say that hardware doesn't matter?

This part made me think I am speaking to a wall. Hardware is important, in a way that it needs to be powerful enough to offer no restrictions. Beyond that it is a waste of money. My example was to proof the DS it's "lower" hardware is not a flaw.

And the GameCube is dead last. What does that tell you about Nintendo's "great lineup"?

It doesn't have anything to do with the current discussian, but if you must know I own a gamecube and love it. I also own an xbox and NES. I have fun with all my games and so do my friends when we have small-nerd-get-togethers.

And the reason being because Sony has the games people want to play

Tadaaa. And that's the reason why Nintendo managed to get a handheld system up to the second place.

Really? Being able to control Samus Aran with a stylus pen is something you've been waiting for for ages?

... I'm going to stop replying now, I rememberd you differently than this, Keiichi.

 

[chuckus]

chuckus you're forgetting one major thing: everything Sony touches turn into gold. The PSP will sell, millions and millions.

the reason ps1 did so well was cuz they had one hell of an aggressive business plan. Somewhat questionable but it's not like Nintendo was any better. My point is they're going to have to find a way to crack nintendo's choke hold on this market. Before, they did so by buying up all the game makers and forcing them to produce only for them. I don't think they'll be able to do this for the hand helds. They'll need a new way of bum sexing nintendo to try to beat them.

And the GameCube is dead last. What does that tell you about Nintendo's "great lineup"?

Common keichii. You KNOW consoles and hand helds are two VERY different markets.

 

[MP_Lord_Kee]

I never owned an handheld and probably won't get one just for gaming purpose. But lately (last couple of years) I have used mobile phones for all my "instant" gaming needs when on the road (or telephone meeting, doing some work that doesn't require my constant attention etc etc). Naturally, the games ain't that great and a lot of limits but still, does the trick for me.
I used my Communicator 9210i to read books (read all Harry Potters on it for instance), had quite a few games (eg C64 emulator + loads and loads of games), quite a few other emulators and also native symbian games/apps. Even had civilization port to it that worked pretty flawlessly

My current main mobile, Nokia 6630 that was released a few weeks ago, is proving to be also a quite fine device to waste time with. The emulators work much better, so once again, I have a "handheld" with enough games to last a lifetime. Books, web-browsing etc all work just fine. 1.23megapixel camera, upto 1 hour of video recording, MMS (niffy mms/video editor), instant messaging over gprs, fast webaccess with 3G (WCDMA), EDGE, mp3, streaming video, video phone....

Some games support GPRS multiplay (i.e you could play co-op/multiplayer games with anyone in the world)...possibilities are endless really. Ofcourse, the games have to differ from what is typical on consoles and PCs.

Just add a bluetooth keyboard and someone port nethack to symbian60 and I'd be a happy puppy And, it actually works as a phone as well

//Kee

 

[sublime]

Rostam, the Keichi you remember probably wasn't posting to a thread that let his Sony fanboism shine to its fullest.

Now, here's how I see things. The DS is a dedicated game machine with a library of games with portability in mind. Some might say the dual screens, touch screen, and other unique features are a gimmick. They might be right. However, many developers are excited about the platform it seems, especially since the touch screen option gives them a lot more freedom when it comes to designing controls. Need an extra button? Make one on the touch screen. As Rostam pointed out, you don't have to use the stylus on it. Put them on the left and right edges and the ergonomics should work out nicely. They can even be contextual buttons based on what's happening in the game. It seems a more elegant solution than scrolling through menus to find the option you want, at least to me. I really think we'll see some creative usage of that second screen. It could be a place for interactive maps, information that is normally in the HUD, a second camera view (think spy cams), and a plethora of other options. The imagination is really the only limit. We'll see how it all pans out, but I'm personally excited about the concept as a whole. The backwards compatability is also a big plus for many people as quite a few have a large library of games for the GBA already on hand. Built in wireless support (in addition to the WiFi) should make for fun multiplayer games too and Nintendo's party games should translate well to that format.

The PSP is more of an entertainment package that lets you play the exact same games your PS2 will play. Some people want those games on the run, but quite a few are fairly involved and deeper than typical portable games. GT4? Great, but it's better on a PS2 with the proper steering wheel. It just doesn't seem like it would translate well to me. I'm sure some games will translate well to the hand held environment and that's where you'll see some innovation and new ground broken by the PSP. The entertainment aspects don't interest me that much, but I can see where some people would love to have the options. I don't see people giving up their iPods for them, but they may take away some iPod sales from first time mp3 player buyers, especially since Sony screwed the pooch with their first portable music player, allowing it to only play their proprietary ATRAC files. Speaking of proprietary formats, I wonder how well the UMD format is going to catch on. Is Sony planning for other devices to use it? I'd hope so, since it might be hard to see publishers on it for a single device. Otherwise, if the PSP doesn't catch on quickly, publishers may abandon or seriously cut back on production of UMD discs. Also, I don't personally see myself buying movies just for the PSP since I wouldn't be able to play them in anything else. Home players might be ok, but with the new HDVD and Blu-Ray formats still duking it out and current progressive scan models still providing great quality, I don't see people adding UMD players to their current systems any time soon. It just seems rather limited to me at this point. Also, about battery life - movies drain it quickly since they constantly access the disc. What about games that do that a lot with cut scenes? Will the drain be noticable there too? Maybe not to matter, but it might be a concern. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Either way, they're both pretty damned nice systems, it just depends on your priorities and what you find important. Anyone without fanboi blinders should be able to see that much, at least. Price might also be an issue for some folks but we'll know more about that once official pricing is announced. I'm leaning more towards the DS right now simply because it seems like a better fit for me, personally. I'll still be able to play all of those nifty PSP games on my PS2 anyway.

 

[GenoOfTheCrayon]

How many games do you think will actually take advantage of dual screens and a stylus and voice recognition in ways that really justify their use? Sure, I could take my hand off the controls, pick up my stylus pen, cycle down through my inventory and tap the potion I want to use, but I could also pause the game, open my inventory, cycle down the list with my D-pad and select the same potion with the A button in probably the same or less time, and without the hassle of having to take my hands off the controls (while the game is still running in realtime, I might add, since we all know you won't need to pause the action when you've got two screens) and go fetch a useless peripheral.

I say again, solution for a problem no one had.

-Keiichi

Touchscreens don't always need a stylus. Besides, since the DS is so small, I'm sure all I'd need to do is reach over with my thumb. Problem solved.

Another thing I can imagine would be good for dual screens is something like in Zelda: Four Swords, where there's a light world and a dark/indoor world, where you switch screens so that everyone can be on a different screen and they wouldn't have to follow eachother everywhere they go.

Plus, RTS games like Advanced Wars would be much easier to play if you had a touchscreen map showing the whole board, so you could easily switch your view to some other area with the press of a thumb.

 

[Keiichi]

First of all you don't need a pen to use touchscreen, but sometimes it can be more accurate for things like drawing so you would want to use it. But it's not needed.

You sure as tootin' do need a stylus, at least if you want to select that potion from the list and not the phoenix down and grenade above and below it. The tiny screen of the DS combined with the inherent innacuracy of touchscreens means that trying to select anything with any precision using your fingertip will be damn near impossible.

This part made me think I am speaking to a wall. Hardware is important, in a way that it needs to be powerful enough to offer no restrictions. Beyond that it is a waste of money. My example was to proof the DS it's "lower" hardware is not a flaw.

Maybe not a flaw of the DS, but the PSP's more advanced hardware is most certainly a benefit.

It doesn't have anything to do with the current discussian, but if you must know I own a gamecube and love it. I also own an xbox and NES. I have fun with all my games and so do my friends when we have small-nerd-get-togethers.

I beg to differ that it doesn't matter. Both Nintendo and Sony have certain developers and franchises exclusive to their consoles; developers and franchises which will also be exclusive to their respective handhelds. And, since the console race clearly shows that more people seem to prefer Sony's games, it can be safely assumed that more people will prefer the PSP's games.

You can try to argue that people love all of Nintendo's series' on the GBA, but what choice do they really have? You either play the games that are on the GBA or you play nothing. But Sony is going to give people a choice, and then we'll see whether handheld gamers are really a different breed or whether they prefer their Metal Gears and Gran Turismos to their Super Mario Worlds and Metroids just like their console brothers.

Tadaaa. And that's the reason why Nintendo managed to get a handheld system up to the second place.

So Sony having the games people want to play is why Nintendo will succeed in the handheld wars?

... I'm going to stop replying now, I rememberd you differently than this, Keiichi.

It's a simple question. You can either choose to answer or you can choose to sidestep it. The later will only prove that those features are, in fact, gimmicks.

-Keiichi

 

[sublime]

You sure as tootin' do need a stylus, at least if you want to select that potion from the list and not the phoenix down and grenade above and below it. The tiny screen of the DS combined with the inherent innacuracy of touchscreens means that trying to select anything with any precision using your fingertip will be damn near impossible.

People who have actually had hands-on time with it disagree. You can play with your fingertip,the stylus, even a Q-Tip (as Miyamoto says he likes to use) as most or all of the current demos translate your touchscreen input into a very fine, mouse cursor-like point.

 

[DeMachina]

Also DeMachina, a PDA is not that good for games, I find it very hard playing Doom on that like 4 directions pad and even Quake 1 is a bit slow. Other games (like Lucasart classics via ScummVM work very well though) I'd wait a bit if I were you

I didn't even try to play Quake on my PocketPC, but playing trough mario bros 1 went well enough. It's clearly not a gaming platform, but it's media capacity are miles ahead of whatever the PSP could try. And, for my portable gamming needs, good enough.

People who have actually had hands-on time with it disagree. You can play with your fingertip,the stylus, even a Q-Tip (as Miyamoto says he likes to use) as most or all of the current demos translate your touchscreen input into a very fine, mouse cursor-like point.

I can't really say anything against that as I've not tryed the device myself, however I doubt it'll go so well, especially in any game where speed has any importance. I had an hard time switching page using my fingertips earlier (edit: On my PocketPC reading an eBook) because the on-screen button was too small. In an inventory kind of setting, they won't be able to fit much on the screen. Of course, I haven't tryed the device...

 

[Rostam]

DeM, if you are prepared to search for it you can find a little demo of people playing Metroid something on the DS. The people in that video aim pretty quick and can fire pretty good.
The only problem with the metroid in that version is that they did not yet have the solution to combining aiming and firing. They thought it would be awesome if you could aim and fire directly, which it is. But when you touch the touchscreen to turn around, then you will also fire. It's a small thing gameplay wise, but it needs changing.
Solving it shouldn't be too much of a hassle, even I thought of several stuff to fix it.

But that video should show that the touchscreen is capable of giving quick and accurate orders. The bigger question is, will it malfunction after a year of use? I think it will keep working, personally. I've seen alot of touchscreens for Info at several places. Alot of kids loved to fool around with those. And those things still work after about 3 years of use... But still, it might be a problem. And in fact one of the few worries I have with the DS.

In case you are curious, here are my other worries:
- No analog stick makes me wonder what they will do with the new mario 64 game
- Lighting, although this has been fixed after the original GBA IIRC
But that's about it.

 

[JaFO]

// what use is a stylus on the DS ...
Perhaps it's about as useful as the stylus people use for their PDA and PocketPc's ?
It might even inspire software companies to build PDA-style apps for the DS.
Sure it is going to be a gimmick as developers learn how to use the stylus/touchscreen effectively in games and other software.

// PS2 ports for the PSP ???
I think that is a terrible idea ...
Sure, it may have the same power, but the controls are going to suffer at the very least.
I'd also question why people on the road would want to play MGS, GT4 (or any other #1 title for the PS2) even *if* the controls and battery-life weren't an issue.
The reason is quite simple : the PS2 content will be ports ... any fan of the PS2-lineup will have those games already. And he's probably beaten them once at least.
Why buy the same game in the 'portable' format again ?

And for 'new' games ... the question is the same : why buy for both formats when you can enjoy it on a big screen with surround sound ?

I think Nintendo has partially solved that question ... by making sure those games really are different (= made to fit the format they're used on) and by making those games interact.
Sure it's a gimmick, but it's IMHO a damned good one as you've not only given people a reason to buy the same game twice. You've also made it interesting to buy a handheld-console even if you didn't need one ...

Battery-life for games definitely is going to be an issue, because it sure as hell matters whether your using every single chip onboard (as needed for a 'real' game) or just the bare minimum (for music). I doubt it's going to last 10+ hours. Even the iRiver I've got doesn't reach the maximum 16 hour playtime unless you disable backlighting and stay of the controls.

// why aren't we still playing Tetris on monochrome GBA's ?
Because marketing-people and the geeks made us think we'd "need" better stuff.

 

[LifesBane(4Corners)]

Whoah whoah whoah, Keiichi... Now, yes, I admit right off the bat, I do prefer Sony and have nothing against them, nor Nintendo... but, come on Keiichi...

You are going so far attacking Nintendo's attempted innovations (which may or may not turn out to be any good) that you are practically bashing innovation itself. Sure, you may not NEED those things, but why the heck should someone NOT try them. Yeah, back in the day, I could get around just FINE with a one button ball-mouse, but does that mean they shouldn't have invented a 3 button + wheel optical mouse? Sure, going touch sensitive and stuff is quite a bit more darastic than that, but who's to say it won't work? Give it a chance man... just paint "Sony" over your glasses to hide the Nintendo logo on it so you don't run away as soon as you encounter it

And yikes, did you just say that a DDR pad is a gimmick? I don't think I need to even touch on that one

 

[Keiichi]

I have no problem with Nintendo "innovating" with the DS. My problem stems from the fact that Nintendo zealots seem to view these gimmicks (it's not an insult, it's just what they are) as monumentous developments that will change the way we think of gameplaying.

Be honest. Even if it's possible to develop an intuitive method for controlling a character using a stylus, would it be more practical and above all more efficient than using the traditional digital/analog pad? Look at Metroid. Yes, it's very neat and clever that you can aim and shoot using the stylus. But is the stylus better than using an analog pad? I certainly don't think so. Yes, you could probably use the stylus quite well to sort through your inventory in an RPG and select an item to use, but would it be faster or easier than simply pausing the game and sorting through your inventory with the D-pad? I doubt it.

So what is an innovation if it fails to improve on previous methods? That's the crux of my argument. So if I seem a bit pessimistic in regards to the DS, it's because I honestly don't see any practical use in many of it's innovations.

-Keiichi