So let me get this strait Beppo. Someone could for example add a few guns like a SAW and a Robar or bulky stuff like that, and then drop it at the begining of the round and get a stamina boost?
Debate: is realistic the bulk system? (ra3, please?!)
- Thread starter Turin_Turambar
- Start date
-
Two Factor Authentication is now available on BeyondUnreal Forums. To configure it, visit your Profile and look for the "Two Step Verification" option on the left side. We can send codes via email (may be slower) or you can set up any TOTP Authenticator app on your phone (Authy, Google Authenticator, etc) to deliver codes. It is highly recommended that you configure this to keep your account safe.
- Status
Imp, you can load up every gun in the armory and drop them at the beginning of the round if you want to. However, you won't get any stamina "boost" at that time since your stamina will still take time to build back up. And of course if you pick those weapons back up you take the bulk stamina hit again. It's really no advantage and even a disadvantage since you'd start with a lower stamina after dropping the weapons than you'd have under normal conditions without dropping them. Not to mention the time you'd waste dropping them in the first place. It just don't make good sense to do.
There seems to be something integral in this argument that just isn't being said. For over a year now, I've seen nothing wrong with the Dev Teams implementation of Inf 2.9's stamina system, aside from basic weapons tweaks. I just cannot grasp the argument that is trying to be made.
Basically, as is, if you've got a bunch o' gear, you're going to be slow. If not, you'll be faster. And naturally, if you have less gear, you can move faster, longer. Common sense, right?
Basically, as is, if you've got a bunch o' gear, you're going to be slow. If not, you'll be faster. And naturally, if you have less gear, you can move faster, longer. Common sense, right?
That is common sense. BUT it is NOT the way it works in infiltration (I just tested it). I think we can all agree that 45 bulk is "a bunch o' gear." In infiltration, the soldier with 45 bulk runs at the same speed as a soldier with 0 bulk.St0rmcaller said:
Thats right folks, bulk DOES NOTHING until you get over 45. How can anyone defend that as being realistic??
its like walking around naked compared to someone wearing clothes with a wallet in their back-pocket with a school bag. They'd both run at the same speed because the school bag wont encumber them (of course this depends on the type of school bag but that beside the point)
45 bulk is WAAAY more than a wallet and school bag.ninjin said:
Not only that, but a school bag would encumber you! I don't know about you, but I know I can run faster without wearing a bookbag.
Please don't make total bs arguments like that. You know that is not true. Your comparison is completely off.
keihaswarrior said:
I get your point keihas but I think you are wrong, I look upon the stamina bar NOT as a physical display of the actual stamina value I have, but "potential stamina" or the stamina I WILL have when you start to move! Otherwise what's the point in displaying 100% stamina at the start of the round only for it to drop to 60% as soon as you start to move!
I feel that they've done a pretty good job of converting a fairly complicated real-world issue into a simple system for use with a game, as a vanilla player it took me a little time to get used to the new system but now it makes good sense to me, it's a little annoying on a few of the larger maps, where the action takes place at one end and we spawn at the other and there's no objective that makes the spawns closer, but they are few and far between!
Last edited:
Beppo
Infiltration Lead-Programmer
keihaswarrior said:
keihas you simply don't get what all here are trying to tell you. I will no longer try to. So if you really want to see this thread being closed then continue with your way of posting here. And please let the personal opinion stuff outa here... some call your arguments bs arguments too. So there is no reason to discuss this further cause it is going nowhere.
And to what St0rmcaller said... the stamina system is in place for over a year with some little additions and tweaks for special movements here and there (finishing to reloading while sprinting or jogging aimed aso) made a bit later. But the whole team and crew of beta testers played with it for this amount of time and we all are satisfied with what we have now. Sure we all aren't the majority or the whole community but we represent a lot of them and have influences from a lot of them. And you are more or less alone on your side of things.
So maybe we all were wrong and you are now the only one that is correct... who cares... I doubt I will. So live with it or go into a shop and buy a game and complain about it then on their forum but please do me a favor and stop it here. As said... it is going nowhere.
Beppo
I am going to try and not argue, but let the facts speak for themselves (I am trying to be helpful by basing my arguements on actual facts, instead of the way the game "feels" like many do.)
I jogged 500m on the shooting range. One time with a 0 bulk loadout, and one time with a 45 bulk loadout.
0 bulk times:------------45 bulk times:
100m: 0:26 sec----------100m: 0:26 sec
200m: 0:54 sec----------200m: 0:54 sec
300m: 1:22 sec----------300m: 1:22 sec
400m: 1:50 sec----------400m: 1:50 sec
500m: 2:21 sec----------500m: 2:21 sec
As you can see, the times are exactly the same. Up to 45 bulk affects the soldier in no way at all. It is plainly obvious to me that this is not realistic. If you won't change your mind, then you are more close minded than I thought you were. Oh well, I can't always make people agree with me... thx for a good discussion and your time.
-KW out.
I jogged 500m on the shooting range. One time with a 0 bulk loadout, and one time with a 45 bulk loadout.
0 bulk times:------------45 bulk times:
100m: 0:26 sec----------100m: 0:26 sec
200m: 0:54 sec----------200m: 0:54 sec
300m: 1:22 sec----------300m: 1:22 sec
400m: 1:50 sec----------400m: 1:50 sec
500m: 2:21 sec----------500m: 2:21 sec
As you can see, the times are exactly the same. Up to 45 bulk affects the soldier in no way at all. It is plainly obvious to me that this is not realistic. If you won't change your mind, then you are more close minded than I thought you were. Oh well, I can't always make people agree with me... thx for a good discussion and your time.
-KW out.
moeshaswarrior, it seems to me (looking at the last 30 or so post uv made) that u think u know everything about everything, at least in ur own mind. that's cool and all, but if ur that arrogant and self-righteous when not in front of ur computer u most not have many friends. sorry, but its true. if u really do know all of this stuff about everything and whats best for everyone and everything in all situations then u should form ur own mod team by urself! if not, then all of this sounds like this to me:
moeshaswarrior, it seems to me that u think u know everything about everything, at least in ur own mind. that's cool and all, but if ur that arrogant and self-righteous when not in front of ur computer u most not have many friends. sorry, but its true. if u really do know all of this stuff about everything and whats best for everyone and everything in all situations then u should form ur own mod team by urself! if not, then all of this sounds like this to me:
moeshaswarrior, it seems to me that u think u know everything about everything, at least in ur own mind. that's cool and all, but if ur that arrogant and self-righteous when not in front of ur computer u most not have many friends. sorry, but its true. if u really do know all of this stuff about everything and whats best for everyone and everything in all situations then u should form ur own mod team by urself! if not, then all of this sounds like this to me:
I agree with KW. He has presented his point clearly and with impressive power, but I think that for some reason the others here, with the exception of Duke, aren't understanding the point he's making. Since he has been so articulate in his argument, I doubt I could do any better and I won't waste anyone's time trying to make his point for him. I must, however, protest Beppo's threat to use administrative powers to silence KW. One person persistently trying to make a point that you don't agree with does not justify the closure of a thread or even the threat of such an act.
On a side note, I doubt that KW's suggested system would make a shocking difference gameplay, but one can't really be sure (and maybe I'm just plain wrong).
-Hannibal
On a side note, I doubt that KW's suggested system would make a shocking difference gameplay, but one can't really be sure (and maybe I'm just plain wrong).
-Hannibal
My problem with a simple more stuff = less stamina / quicker drain system is this: either you're making people with realistic loads slow or you're making people with silly light loads quick (or both). Neither seem especially desirable to me in game terms.
Beppo
Infiltration Lead-Programmer
@KW - presenting us a list or table showing facts I already said that it is the way it shows does show nothing new. But for trying to have the last word on it... Nice try. Our stamina system does not give you a 'bonus' or whatever if you carry less than 45 bulk. You stay on your 100% moveability. Everything from 0 to 45 bulk is weighted as the standard 100% of stamina a person can have. No one will be granted any 10% extra or whatever. If the player carries more than the 45 bulk then he is no longer within the standard moveability and so looses some stamina points. Sure you are right that someone with zero bulk would be faster than someone with 45 but you will not be 'fitter' if you carry less and why should we foster very light loadouts at all?? It would only give the rushers some more speed and would by far not represent a soldier at all that carries his specific equipment.
So by allowing all soldiers, no matter what type of loadout they build up within these 45 bulk area, to be the 'same' stamina wise is balancing everything out and would reflect real life too.
Maybe compare it this way. A soldier with ie a minimi loadout has trained with this equipment and is used to carry this stuff around. Another soldier with ie a FA MAS loadout has trained with this equipment and is used to carry this around. So at the time these both soldiers go into battle they both will have full stamina and will be able to move around with the same speed. Else the soldier would never carry the heavier stuff if he wouldn't be able to do so.
So, all soldiers within this 45 bulk limit are trained to use this specific loadout, no matter how much bulk they use up from the 45 granted.
At the time you carry more around with you the stamina drop right from the start represents the fact that the soldier is not used to carry this stuff at all. Do not compare different loadouts carried by the same soldier... that's not what this all represents.
Well I bet you will still not get my/our point, but at least I tried.
---
@Hannibal or whatever one-timer you might be...
I do not see anything close to "impressive power" and I guess Duke can speak for himself if he wants to. And your protest is nice but I have not 'threatened' anyone here. This forum has some simple rules and if stuff is getting nowhere at all and one side continues to beat a dead horse then the 'discussion' is useless/pointless or whatever and so the thread should die. And if it cannot die due to repeated posting then it can only be stopped by closing the thread... that's all. So, this here is going nowhere right now and I guess if it continues to go nowhere then itwill only turn towards bitching and complaining, bad blood and whatever else you can think of. It was close to personal insults already tho. So, keep it as is ... this thread has to end at some point and if not by simply stopping the 'discussion' then it has to be done by the "administrative powers" as you named it.
Beppo
So by allowing all soldiers, no matter what type of loadout they build up within these 45 bulk area, to be the 'same' stamina wise is balancing everything out and would reflect real life too.
Maybe compare it this way. A soldier with ie a minimi loadout has trained with this equipment and is used to carry this stuff around. Another soldier with ie a FA MAS loadout has trained with this equipment and is used to carry this around. So at the time these both soldiers go into battle they both will have full stamina and will be able to move around with the same speed. Else the soldier would never carry the heavier stuff if he wouldn't be able to do so.
So, all soldiers within this 45 bulk limit are trained to use this specific loadout, no matter how much bulk they use up from the 45 granted.
At the time you carry more around with you the stamina drop right from the start represents the fact that the soldier is not used to carry this stuff at all. Do not compare different loadouts carried by the same soldier... that's not what this all represents.
Well I bet you will still not get my/our point, but at least I tried.
---
@Hannibal or whatever one-timer you might be...
I do not see anything close to "impressive power" and I guess Duke can speak for himself if he wants to. And your protest is nice but I have not 'threatened' anyone here. This forum has some simple rules and if stuff is getting nowhere at all and one side continues to beat a dead horse then the 'discussion' is useless/pointless or whatever and so the thread should die. And if it cannot die due to repeated posting then it can only be stopped by closing the thread... that's all. So, this here is going nowhere right now and I guess if it continues to go nowhere then itwill only turn towards bitching and complaining, bad blood and whatever else you can think of. It was close to personal insults already tho. So, keep it as is ... this thread has to end at some point and if not by simply stopping the 'discussion' then it has to be done by the "administrative powers" as you named it.
Beppo
Let's say "virtual stamina" is same for all players. The "stamina drop rate" is a function of the bulk and kind of movement (sprint, jog, prone...). We can draw a plot of the function for every kind of movement. Beppo simply considers first part of the plots to be constant (for input values ranging from 0 to 45) for every kind of movement (diferrent constant but constant). To judge whether it is a good approximation we need to get as much RL data as possible. That's all.
So we need reasonably trained volunteers to go jogging and sprinting etc. w/ different loadouts to collect the data (obtaining stamina drop rate for every kind of movement as a derivative of stamina with respect to the bulk)
Btw how can one measure his current stamina in RL?
Beppo, please forgive me, I am joking...
I guess the faster you move the smaller difference in bulk matters. E.g. at 30 bulk you are NOT overloaded for walking (almost no difference in stamina drop rate compared to 0 bulk) but you are closer to be overloaded for jogging and you ARE overloaded for sprinting (remarkable difference compared to bulk 0) , which is impossible to implement w/o keeping stamina bar length constant and letting the drop rate vary (first step). So even not implementing kind-of-movement-depended overloaded-bulks the first step could be taken and would not affect anything except the HUD...
As we are (almost) contented with the current state of bulk system there is (almost) no need to change anything.
Sorry Beppo, and I forgot to say that the drop rate is also a function of player's health, injuries, air pressure, gravity, air humidity etc.... We can plot graph of such function into an (N+1)-dimensional space, where N is count of factors influencing the drop rate... For the sake of simplicity and computer calculations we need to approximate such function using a polynomial or interpolation of discrete set of experimental data.
Last remark to illustrate the concept: someone with his legs shot off has e.g. X% of the stamina left after the "injure". His stamina drop rate equals to infinity for jogging and sprinting (i.e. he looses all X% whatever X is as he tries to jog or sprint - nice vision) but is high yet still lesser than infinity for proning... (he can crawl a bit but it is very exhausting for him)!
don't kill me, please, don't.....
So we need reasonably trained volunteers to go jogging and sprinting etc. w/ different loadouts to collect the data (obtaining stamina drop rate for every kind of movement as a derivative of stamina with respect to the bulk)
Btw how can one measure his current stamina in RL?
Beppo, please forgive me, I am joking...
I guess the faster you move the smaller difference in bulk matters. E.g. at 30 bulk you are NOT overloaded for walking (almost no difference in stamina drop rate compared to 0 bulk) but you are closer to be overloaded for jogging and you ARE overloaded for sprinting (remarkable difference compared to bulk 0) , which is impossible to implement w/o keeping stamina bar length constant and letting the drop rate vary (first step). So even not implementing kind-of-movement-depended overloaded-bulks the first step could be taken and would not affect anything except the HUD...
As we are (almost) contented with the current state of bulk system there is (almost) no need to change anything.
Sorry Beppo, and I forgot to say that the drop rate is also a function of player's health, injuries, air pressure, gravity, air humidity etc.... We can plot graph of such function into an (N+1)-dimensional space, where N is count of factors influencing the drop rate... For the sake of simplicity and computer calculations we need to approximate such function using a polynomial or interpolation of discrete set of experimental data.
Last remark to illustrate the concept: someone with his legs shot off has e.g. X% of the stamina left after the "injure". His stamina drop rate equals to infinity for jogging and sprinting (i.e. he looses all X% whatever X is as he tries to jog or sprint - nice vision) but is high yet still lesser than infinity for proning... (he can crawl a bit but it is very exhausting for him)!
don't kill me, please, don't.....
Beppo
Infiltration Lead-Programmer
if this wasn't a joke than it would be a good reason for closing this thread now
... and no, I haven't taken it for a joke.
Go, open a new thread in the new version suggestions and bang your heads together there... but not here in general.
Do you guys really think that we will have nothing better to do than to rewrite our whole stamina system that the whole team and beta testers agreed on during the past two years just cause you guys had now one week of 'rethinking' everything?
Nevermind... would go too far...
... and no, I haven't taken it for a joke.
Go, open a new thread in the new version suggestions and bang your heads together there... but not here in general.
Do you guys really think that we will have nothing better to do than to rewrite our whole stamina system that the whole team and beta testers agreed on during the past two years just cause you guys had now one week of 'rethinking' everything?
Nevermind... would go too far...
![RedMarlin[MERLIN]](/data/avatars/s/22/22951.jpg?1424422838){kind=avatar}
Beppo you should threaten to put the 2.86 stamina code back in if they don't shut up 
I seriously don't understand what the problem is, imo the stamina is fine! We need to come up with more ideas to help Inf's developement and stop trying to prefect every single little things. Next people are going to start nit picking that the inf guy isn't wearing the right shoes or something.
I seriously don't understand what the problem is, imo the stamina is fine! We need to come up with more ideas to help Inf's developement and stop trying to prefect every single little things. Next people are going to start nit picking that the inf guy isn't wearing the right shoes or something.
ok before people start throwing stones at each other i think i'll try my hand at explaining each other's argument in different terms. I've read the whole thread and i think i understand what each person here is trying to say.. but i might be wrong.
The main difference is that there are two completely different aproaches to single system that are being presented here.
Beppo's system is one in which the performance of a player isn't effected untill they "overload" their character. Bulk isn't simply a description of weight, but of encumberment. For example using the "bulk system" a very long staff made of a very light material would still be given a high bulk figure because it would be pain to carry around. As a result it's crucial to understand that bulk is not weight.
KW describes a system in which weight is the key factor. It's a system that is realistic, and is used quite often in racing games and flight simulation, where acceleration, topspeed, milage, ect is calcualted using Power to weight ratios. In such systems every ounce effects performace.
Both systems have their merits and have their drawbacks. KW's system is realistic and does work, however i dont think it translates well into human locomotion because it presents too heavy an emphasis on weight, and not encumberment. In KW's system an extreemly large, but light object (for example a 12 foot plank of wood) would only be measured as a few pounds and would not accurately represent the difficulties and stresses in trying to carry such a odd object. Stacking cargo into a plane or a reducing the weight of a car, is very different then person trying to manage a lot of oddly shaped gear. There's a whole lot of little things that aren't being taken into account. Such systems don't take into account the extra energy required to keep balance for example because they always assume that by adding weight it's stored in a "cargo area" and so just adds to the total mass of an object. In reality of course a person isn't able to carry a Minimi in his or her stomache and must instead affix the weight outside the center of mass, so extra strenght is required to keep from falling over ect ect.
This is why Beppo's system is more appropriate. In beppo's system weight is only part of bulk. It trys to mimic the extra difficulties in carrying extra upper body bulk, not just weight.
The main difference is that there are two completely different aproaches to single system that are being presented here.
Beppo's system is one in which the performance of a player isn't effected untill they "overload" their character. Bulk isn't simply a description of weight, but of encumberment. For example using the "bulk system" a very long staff made of a very light material would still be given a high bulk figure because it would be pain to carry around. As a result it's crucial to understand that bulk is not weight.
KW describes a system in which weight is the key factor. It's a system that is realistic, and is used quite often in racing games and flight simulation, where acceleration, topspeed, milage, ect is calcualted using Power to weight ratios. In such systems every ounce effects performace.
Both systems have their merits and have their drawbacks. KW's system is realistic and does work, however i dont think it translates well into human locomotion because it presents too heavy an emphasis on weight, and not encumberment. In KW's system an extreemly large, but light object (for example a 12 foot plank of wood) would only be measured as a few pounds and would not accurately represent the difficulties and stresses in trying to carry such a odd object. Stacking cargo into a plane or a reducing the weight of a car, is very different then person trying to manage a lot of oddly shaped gear. There's a whole lot of little things that aren't being taken into account. Such systems don't take into account the extra energy required to keep balance for example because they always assume that by adding weight it's stored in a "cargo area" and so just adds to the total mass of an object. In reality of course a person isn't able to carry a Minimi in his or her stomache and must instead affix the weight outside the center of mass, so extra strenght is required to keep from falling over ect ect.
This is why Beppo's system is more appropriate. In beppo's system weight is only part of bulk. It trys to mimic the extra difficulties in carrying extra upper body bulk, not just weight.
![[SOB]bAd ChIcKeN](/data/avatars/s/20/20031.jpg?1424422820){kind=avatar}
^^ give that man a prize!
Hopefully folks can read that..
Bulk is fine Beppo, dont fall into their trap, your on vacation remember... V A C A T I O N!! No coding for j00
Hopefully folks can read that..
Bulk is fine Beppo, dont fall into their trap, your on vacation remember... V A C A T I O N!! No coding for j00
No new evidence to refute his argument has been brought forth to refute KW's point. Once again, I'm going to refrain from arguing his point.
I will, of course, respond to the message directed at me.
Well, to end your haughty discrimination as fast as possible: I've been playing Infiltration since version 2.75 was released. I'm not going to discuss the merits of KW's argument, especially as some here apparently still don't understand what he's saying or why his evidence is relevant.
As to Beppo's innappropriate behavior...
THAT is clearly a threat against KW. Treating a forum member and respected player in this way is just wrong.
And to KW simply "beating a dead horse:" KW posted empirical evidence illustrating his point AFTER Beppo made the claim that the argument was "going nowhere". Although his explanation of the data was rather limited, certainly at least some readers could extrapolate the important point his data makes (yes, I break my own rule against reiterating his argument here): that a man with a "45 bulk" loadout will be in exactly the same condition as an unburdened man after jogging 499 (and presumably 500) meters, which is not an insignificant distance to cover.
I will, of course, respond to the message directed at me.
Well, to end your haughty discrimination as fast as possible: I've been playing Infiltration since version 2.75 was released. I'm not going to discuss the merits of KW's argument, especially as some here apparently still don't understand what he's saying or why his evidence is relevant.
As to Beppo's innappropriate behavior...
THAT is clearly a threat against KW. Treating a forum member and respected player in this way is just wrong.
And to KW simply "beating a dead horse:" KW posted empirical evidence illustrating his point AFTER Beppo made the claim that the argument was "going nowhere". Although his explanation of the data was rather limited, certainly at least some readers could extrapolate the important point his data makes (yes, I break my own rule against reiterating his argument here): that a man with a "45 bulk" loadout will be in exactly the same condition as an unburdened man after jogging 499 (and presumably 500) meters, which is not an insignificant distance to cover.
but did you READ what DEFkon wrote? That explains the bilk system perfectly, its not about weight only. And beppo is MOD and can do what he wants when he wants on this board, and just because you have been playing INF since 2.75 does'nt make you an autority or give you the right to act in this manner. jeez close the damn thread already
- Status