Debate: is realistic the bulk system? (ra3, please?!)

[keihaswarrior]

I don't think you understand what I mean.

Ok beppo, you and me are soldiers. We both are in a helicopter that is taking us to our insertion point... I am not carrying anything, but you are loaded up with a "50 bulk" worth of stuff. We are just sitting in the helicopter, so both of us are fully rested. This means we both have FULL stamina. Now we get off and we are still fully rested so we both have 100% stamina.

But, then we start to move and it is plainly obvious that you are moving slower and getting tired more quickly than me.
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The above story shows how bulk affects stamina drop RATE not maximum value. Bulk also affects speed and acceleration.

Therefore, here is a rough outline of a realistic stamina/bulk/movement speed system:

First variable is Force (F). This is the maximum force the soldier can exert to move forward and accelerate.
Next is:
Speed (P). The current speed of soldier
Bulk (B). Regular infiltration bulk value + bulk value of the soldier's own body.
Acceleration (A). The rate at which the soldier increases his speed when forward is pressed.
Stamina (S). Physical energy available for exertion by soldier.

Here is the system:
Stamina*(some constant) = Force = (some constant)*Bulk*Acceleration + (some constant)*Bulk*Speed

Jog and Walk modes would simply stop acceleration once a certain speed was reached.

Stamina drop = (some constant)*Force*Time.

Playtesting will determine the values of the constants in these equations.

 

[sublime]

I think carrying 50 "bulk" of stuff, even sitting down, would be tiring. Don't believe it? Strap a 45lb weight to your back and sit down for half an hour to simulate your chopper ride. Then stand up. How rested do you feel?

 

[M_O_DJerry]

Very. I did it. Sitting in a chopper or a C-160 is not as relaxing as sitting in front of the TV with a cold beer, but it doesn't tire you. What can be a problem is the temperature inside (depends on time of year), the smell of kerosene and the odours of your comrades .

 

[keihaswarrior]

I think carrying 50 "bulk" of stuff, even sitting down, would be tiring. Don't believe it? Strap a 45lb weight to your back and sit down for half an hour to simulate your chopper ride. Then stand up. How rested do you feel?

I go hiking a lot. I usually carry between 45 and 65 lbs of gear. Sitting down is very restful. Also, when I put my pack on in the morning, I don't suddenly start sweating and breathing hard

 

[sublime]

Way to roll those eyes. Very nicely done.

Now, wear that hiking gear for the entire trip to the hiking location. Go with someone who has no extra gear at all for the trip to the site. Have him put on his gear only when he gets to the site. Do it. Post pics. Tell me who is more rested at that point. Do some jogging and sprinting too. Post videos.

As for the sweating and breathing hard, put on a pack that weighs a few hundred pounds or more (which is what would be needed to get you to that point in Infiltration from the start) and then toss some weighted stick over your shoulders with straps. See how you feel at that point. Take more pics and videos. Post them here. Make sure you roll your eyes in them.

 

[Crowze]

I go hiking a lot. I usually carry between 45 and 65 lbs of gear. Sitting down is very restful. Also, when I put my pack on in the morning, I don't suddenly start sweating and breathing hard

But, you don't suddenly start off at a run at the same speed as someone unladen.

 

[MP_Duke]

Does the amount of bulk affect the drop rate in stamina?

 

[ninjin]

what is the standard bulk/loudout of the modern infantry anyways?

 

[MP_Duke]

I think what KW is suggesting is a difference in how the stamina is displayed on the HUD. By 100% stamina (maxstam), he means the bar extends fully to the right side of the screen. With more bulk, the drop rate increases. So in effect, you have yourself pretty much an equivalent system which makes his point rather m00t lol. Instead of lowering the max allowable stamina with increasing bulk, it's blowing up the stamina bar in size to fit the proportions of the default maxstam. That is, assuming that the current system does not have stamina drop rate affected by amount of bulk, you guys are only arguing a difference in style.

 

[St0rmcaller]

what is the standard bulk/loudout of the modern infantry anyways?

I may miss something here, but I'll go for it.

Two uniform changes (Cammie blouse, trousers, underwear[heh, heh, yeah...like we wore that stuff!] t-shirts boots, belt)
Five MRE's (standard, varied, but this was average)
Sleeping bag.
Entrenching Tool
Poncho, and Poncho liner
First Aid kit
Web Belt
Magazine Pouches
Gortex jacket, and trousers
Butt Pack
Shelter Half (one half of a tent) to include stakes and poles
Soft Cover (like the cap, or boonie in your loadout)
Ammunition. At least Six loaded magazines, and probably another 200 loose rounds for rifle. At least three grenades. When my TO weapon had the M-203, I had 20 rounds of HE 40mm.
Helmet, and Flak Jacket (interceptor vest, armor plate issued depending on mission)

As a matter of fact, I KNOW I'm missing stuff here, but this should give you an idea. The basic "bulk" for all this gear is roughly 80-90 lbs.

 

[Vega-don]

the equipment stormcaller described doesn't suit for infilration since in infiltration the defenders are at their base (so they dont need all that stuff), and the attackers in most of the maps are special forces making one mission only and not a campaign , extracted by helicopters.

 

[keihaswarrior]

I think what KW is suggesting is a difference in how the stamina is displayed on the HUD. By 100% stamina (maxstam), he means the bar extends fully to the right side of the screen. With more bulk, the drop rate increases. So in effect, you have yourself pretty much an equivalent system which makes his point rather m00t lol. Instead of lowering the max allowable stamina with increasing bulk, it's blowing up the stamina bar in size to fit the proportions of the default maxstam. That is, assuming that the current system does not have stamina drop rate affected by amount of bulk, you guys are only arguing a difference in style.

That is only the beginning of my suggestion. Notice I posted a whole new system for it that would be nice to see implemented.

Also, it is not irrelevant because the stamina affects your breathing bob. It is unrealistic to be fully rested, but have a high breathing bob (due to a lowered max stam) just because of a flaw in the stamina system.
Furthermore, there isn't enough of a difference between having 10 bulk and 40 bulk. It only makes a large difference once you get over 45. In real life there isn't some abitrary point where bulk starts to matter more.

 

[Beppo]

Keihas, no pun intended, but then implement this system yourself.

We have different standpoints or we simply talk about the same shiat differently.

What you don't seem to understand is that the max stamina bar is at 100% if your soldier is not OVERLOADED. Means your guy is carrying MORE than he can to move around 'normally'.

So, to use your hicking example it would be you carrying your hicking stuff PLUS the stuff from a friend right from the start. You obviously carry too much then and you will be exhausted directly at the time you strip it on your shoulders.

THIS is what the stamina bar reflects by giving you NOT 100% right from the start. And this ONLY means that you carry way more than you can or have trained for.

So, if a soldier or hicker carries nothing at all or if he carries a small backpack doesn't matter at all. Both will have 100% stamina right from the start cause the one with the equipment can carry this stuff easily cause he got used to carry this stuff.
Now give him the backpacks of two other guys and he will get overloaded... carrying too much stuff.

It is a small little thing that you don't seem to get here that fully explains why some soldiers in INF do not start with the 100% stamina at all.

Your system is only different in one little thing... the stamina useage. You make this dependant on the actual bulk you carry. We do not do this due to the reasons I described already. It would highly affect the gameplay and would almost automatically kill any medium to heavy loadouts or better their useage cause the guys carrying that much would need too long to regenerate and would loose stamina much faster. Would make them almost sitting ducks or even turtles not able to move around.
A trained soldier uses as much stamina if he carries a light loadout or a medium one... even a heavy one if he doesn't get overloaded. If he is overloaded then he simply will not have the same amount of stamina then the others. That affects his overall movement speed. In addition he will degenerate to zero faster than the light soldier cause his max value was not as high. This - as Duke said already - is actually the same as if the guys would both start with a 100% stamina bar and the light one using the stamina slower than the heavy one. Duke is right that this would be the same in the end.
Sure, the breathing bob aso is affected by a lower stamina of course but what is so off with it? If you carry one backpack while hicking then your breath will be pretty stable and steady... nothing wild. If you then start to carry another backpack from your friend in addition to your own one then your breathin will be much harder. Or do you think that if you carry TOO MUCH (again, overloaded is the key here) that you can breath like a young god then still??

All players in INF start with 100% stamina, have the same stamina useage aso.
Only overloaded soldiers start with a lower max stamina due to obvious reasons.

And to "In real life there isn't some arbitrary point where bulk starts to matter more." is simply wrong. Again, if you carry more than you can or have trained for then it hits you way hard then. Again, one backpack or two or even three... they will matter more... believe me.

Beppo

 

[spm1138]

My 2 pence worth:
The loadout system allows you to carry a rifle, ten odd mags, three grenades and then either body armour or a pistol without penalties.

Ditto a machinegun, two boxes of ammo, a couple of grenades and a pistol (which you can substitute for another box of ammo).

In fact I think I have been able to put together any "reasonable" loadout you can think of without more than 10% stamina loss.

Serious drain only sets in when I try and combine scopes and grenade launchers or multiple primary weapons (just try the old Robar sidearm trick) or heavy loadouts and Class IIIA armour.

As far as I can see, in my humble opinion the new system has fixed everything I had cause to complain about with the old system and delivers on the promise of "You will be able to do it but you won't want to because it will be a really a bad idea". I think it's fine.

 

[keihaswarrior]

Beppo: "A trained soldier uses as much stamina if he carries a light loadout or a medium one... even a heavy one if he doesn't get overloaded"

*sigh I am not getting through at all. Its like you didn't even read my post. Also, the above quote is a little ridiculous. I can't believe anyone would think that someone carrying a light loadout is going to tire at the same rate as someone with a heavy loadout. --simple common sense and experience easily shows us that any amount of weight is going to slow you down a little no matter how small.

Accoring to your logic, all hikers would carry the heaviest packs they could (without being overloaded) because they would hike just as fast as someone with a light backpack.

Also, you never responded to my comment: "when I put my pack on in the morning, I don't suddenly start sweating and breathing hard." -- In INF though, the soldier is instantly tired the moment he is carrying an overloaded pack.

 

[Beppo]

keihas... you don't read my posts either ... or you simply ignore to understand parts of it...

Carry a backpack with 2 pounds in it and jog around the block. Then do the same with 6 pounds after you fully regenerated. You will notice not much difference at all. Someone else would be able to do this with 20 pounds without breathing any harder or needing more time. A trained soldier would do this with even more stuff on his back. That is what I was talking about. Funny thing is that you made the backpack example, but maybe I didn't got you at that point correctly.

Do I really have to comment to each and every sentence you present us here? Anyway... to your
"when I put my pack on in the morning, I don't suddenly start sweating and breathing hard." -- In INF though, the soldier is instantly tired the moment he is carrying an overloaded pack.

If this pack you put on in the morning weight a hundred or more pounds and you are not trained to carry that much, then I bet you will start sweating and hard breathing within seconds, period. Again, take pictures to show us how relaxed you can stand around with a full packed backpack... and again, I'm not talking about a weight that you are used to carry...

You seem to not get the little difference between standard load and overloaded still. Overloaded means more than you are able to carry. And not just a bit more than usual.

 

[sublime]

I still want my pictures and videos.

 

[keihaswarrior]

I do understand and read your posts, I simply disagree that someone who runs around the block carrying nothing and someone who carries a 30 lb backpack will tire and the same rate and finish in the same amount of time.

I still can't believe that you think a soldier carrying a backpack with nothing in it, and a soldier carrying a fairly heavy backpack will get tired at the same rate and move at the same speed.

 

[Beppo]

Funny that everything else seems to be ok now if you only mention this one thing ...

The example with carrying nothing or a full backpack was only to show an extreme example. Sure there would be a little difference, but not much at all.
Again, if a trained person shoulders a backpack with 10 or 20 pounds in it and is used to carry such a backpack around then he will be able to move around the same way, no matter what exactly the weight is. We are not talking about sprinting the 110 meter hurdles or something alike. We are talking about standard movement in a military operation.

And again. Till the point you carry more than you are used to, everything works the same for you. At the time you carry more your max stamina is not the same again. And this leads to faster degeneration cause you have not as much left as the 100% guy. So everything you complained before is actually working this way already. Only difference is that the bulk has a direct input right from the start.

Anyway, I would bet for some kegs that if you or someone else implements the stamina system the way you described it, it would end up almost exactly the same as our currently implemented system. There will be no real difference if you do not add some mixed up ideas.

So, we can 'discuss' this to death or we can simply stop here now.
You have your opinion, and we have ours. Live with it or implement your own system, but please stop complaining about something that works very well in game (and I'm talking about the resulting effects ... not the size of the bulk/stamina bar drawn).

If you want to complain further then this thread will simply be closed cause it leads to nothing. Nobody wants to beat the dead horse again and again. And this is by far no constructive talk anymore...

Beppo

 

[LIGHTFIGHTER]

Not for nothing, but I would imagine that a trained individual, used to marching and jogging miles in full gear, would be able to move relatively quickly and nimbly..even with a MINIMI and armor... The loadout given isn't excessive by any means: a primary weapon with ONE can of ammo, a pistol with a couple mags, a helmet and body armor...given that the person using such a loadoud would..theoretically..have been going through maneuvers and such WITH said loadout....

Let me help you with this statment..........Walking or a forced foot march is one thing and Moving at combat speed is another........One M249 and two extra 200 round ammo cans.......Flak vest ....no pistol.......... Automatic Rifleman don't carry pistols....this basic loadout will smoke your arse real quick in a combat situation.

Remember a Infantryman's Rucksack is about 80 lbs on average......so if you were carrying that before the action started then you would be semi fatigued