Conflict in Iraq will be winding down soon enough...

[GenoOfTheCrayon]

In other words, democracy at it's finest. It has happened in many small villages for many millenia. A guy stole a chicken, yelled at someone's wife for no reason, did something to piss everyone off, they kicked him out. Done and done.

 

[Cold Killer]

This homework sheet I'm reading right now says that the tyranny of the majority is "something to be abhored in a freely democratic society". According to this, those little villages weren't free democracies.

 

[GenoOfTheCrayon]

Everyone pretty much had an equal say in them. So what makes it NOT a free democracy?

 

[Cold Killer]

Allow me to quote from my socials sheets here:

Mill was greatly concerned with what he called "the tyranny of the majority." This is a situation in which the wishes or actions of the individual are thwarted by the majority.
Something like slavery could be justified by the utilitarian theory because it provided "the greatest good for the greatest number of people."
In "On Liberty" Mill writes, "the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community against his will, is to prevent harm to others..." A proper democracy, Mill felt, should always safeguard the qualities of variety and personal initiative. It should never be allowed to fall into an excuse for mob rule.
This is not to say that Mill rejected the idea oof utilitarianism. However, his concern was to see that the concepts of utility and democracy were used for their proper purpose; the benefit of all people. Individual freedom must always be guaranteed in all actions of the state.

 

[The_Pikeman]

Jaunty walks around this forum like he knew this Berg kid.

"He wanted the war!"
"He asked for the war."
"He went to profit from the war."

Do some research man, these things were said by the guys family and freinds in interveiws with the press for christ sakes.....

You contradict yourself, first saying that it was a spur of the moment beheading and then say it was done because of the photos in the prison camp.

How the hell is that a contradiction?

You say Saddam has nothing to do with terrorism? What a joke dude! Bin Laden set us on the war path to end terrorism and Saddam is a terrorist, fool

Really where to begin.... do you really think this war is ending terrorism? I think even the powers that be have given up trying to implicate saddam with Bin Laden, it's like saying that david grimble (or whatever his name is) supports the IRA.... they both are christians, so they must be on the same side! Oh and saddam a terrorist? go look up "terrorist" in a dictionary, a dictator sure but terrorist thats a bit rich.

Its ok to murder people as long as its within your own borders? Dude you are so wrong its pitiful!

Death penalty anyone?

Beheading is the worst we can think of and now they've done it to one of our citizens because 6 individuals (not the entire US Army) put a few of their lackys in a naked pyramid.

Should we now tie these pyramid boys to 4 horses heading North South East and West and slap them on the ass? Lets video tape it and send it to their parents and countrymen and get this focking glass fused.

Please! Where does it stop?.

It's not just that there is evidence that people have been beaten to death by recently by our troops, not to mention the other stuff that came out before the pics.

Some people would rather call me an idiot or tell me to leave because they do not think my views are applicable.

It has nothing to do with your veiws .... we have always had huge debates in the past that have been passionatly argued from different sides, I have never been asked to leave nor asked anyone else to leave, bar UTD Snake when he was in his "bad" phase.

I believe we should have took out Saddam back in 91, but too late now and further to late to stop now that we are at this point in Iraq

Show me one piece of evidence that saddam had anything to do with it. You do NOT have the right to take out leaders of other countrys because you think he might have something to do with a terrorist action.

So what makes it NOT a free democracy?

Because huge multi-nationals wern't shaping the law to benifit themselfs and screw everyone else. Because if a company dumped chemical waste into a stream they might have some explaning to do insted of making a huge donation to the next canditate
-How.

 

[']['rågïç]

Arguing on a forum is pointless. I thank some of you genius types for showing me how much of an idiot I am. Boy what was I thinking? lol

You read sh!t and interpret it anyway you feel in order to make someone wrong.

So basic's show that if your readers have a hard time with reading comprehension you must write a book in your posts and threads, just so nobody strays off and gets the wrong idea. Dont forget to add witty putdowns and find a few morons to ally with. You're gonna need um or you may be majority voted out for your opinion.

It doesnt matter what I say, some of you are ready to flame rather than look at any other opinion but your own. (dont cause a wave, stick with the flamers)

Re-read your posts, Pikeman. You quote and answer. No thought to what the writer may have meant.

And theres a little phrase called Devils advocate. Does it make sense to see only one side? No.

 

[GenoOfTheCrayon]

Allow me to quote from my socials sheets here:

I guess you could call this area more like a club than a village. Sorry for using a bad symmaly. But if you piss everyone off in the club, chances are you're kicked out. Makes sense to do so here.

 

[-Snakebite-]

People are reading your posts Tragic, thats why there are so many responses. Just because they make sense to you, it doesnt mean that they do to anyone else. There is quite a good selection of semi-intelligent people here, if you were making good points, dont you think someone would have picked up on that by now?
TBH I'm quite enjoying this thread

 

[L3d]

hee ,just got back from 2 days paranoia thinking thay finnally (also) cut off me internet connecton but no
isnt it weird how **** like this gets in a todays world trust me if its getting worse its fore the best so think human-like and look at the sun just doing that .
its getting worse because these "bad" ppl are getting in the postition where there is unsertanty in there survival so its obvius were seeing more of this bull**** now isnt it ?
i dont know but "last knight" i was fooking driffted mad as hell making music at 5morning .
annywho ppl where getting to the "possition to think of all" the in-humane things no ?

 

[U/D/T/SNAKE]

hee ,just got back from 2 days paranoia thinking thay finnally (also) cut off me internet connecton but no
isnt it weird how **** like this gets in a todays world trust me if its getting worse its fore the best so think human-like and look at the sun just doing that .
its getting worse because these "bad" ppl are getting in the postition where there is unsertanty in there survival so its obvius were seeing more of this bull**** now isnt it ?
i dont know but "last knight" i was fooking driffted mad as hell making music at 5morning .
annywho ppl where getting to the "possition to think of all" the in-humane things no ?

I feel a case of hysterical blindness coming on after seeing this post.

 

[Freon]

And theres a little phrase called Devils advocate. Does it make sense to see only one side? No.

Oh god, please check this guy's IP to see if it's not NTKB with a new forum account
Tragic, never, ever, try and play the victim here. It never works. People read your posts and try to understand them as much as they can. Let's take Cold Killer for instance. Every body hated him, every body told him to leave and in the end he did. But now his back, and while he's a little annoying at time, he calmed down.
Don't think the whole forum is against us. But you're doing your best to achive it. You have your head shoved so deep in your ass you don't even read our posts and answer them. All you do is reciting your little BS with more and more forum drama

 

[Farouk]

Need I remind you that the prisoners put in a naked Pyramid etc. are still alive with heads attached even tho' they too entered the war? Do they not get what they deserve? Or is beheading a little much?

I didn't want to talk about Abu Ghraib in this thread, but I must put things into perspective. They are not alive. At least not all of them.

In November, Frederick wrote, an Iraqi prisoner under the control of what the Abu Ghraib guards called “O.G.A.,” or other government agencies—that is, the C.I.A. and its paramilitary employees—was brought to his unit for questioning. “They stressed him out so bad that the man passed away. They put his body in a body bag and packed him in ice for approximately twenty-four hours in the shower. . . . The next day the medics came and put his body on a stretcher, placed a fake IV in his arm and took him away.” The dead Iraqi was never entered into the prison’s inmate-control system, Frederick recounted, “and therefore never had a number.”

- http://newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

You'll find a fitting picture there:
http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/iraqis_tortured/

The picture was part of the original CBS show, but surprisingly enough you haven't seen it or heard any talk about it in afterwards.


I think in general, the world concentrates too much on the pictures. Normal reports go unnoticed:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0504-14.htm

 

[mat69]

"Arguing on a forum is pointless." But what's your point? What do you think about this?
You call it missinterpreting your posts, but it is you who said that the people against this war should support al Qaida.
And what's so bad writing longer posts? Oneliners are so much better.
So write what you think and not what "is"!

Btw. do you think that the UN sanctions murdered many people as well?

 

[ant75]

I think l3d summed everything up pretty well

 

[BobTheFearlessFish]

ok, let me explain my viewpoint, in full, using small words, so that maybe tragic can understand.

i never supported the war on iraq, i dont believe that violence is the solution to anything other than a direct attack. i certainly believe that removing saddam was a good thing, but the method that was used is likely to cause more harm than good. especially as i dont believe that the major players in the invading coalition have the welfare of the iraqi people as their main concern.

However. iraq has been invaded and saddam has been removed and now we have to deal with what is left, which is a great big mess. people from both sides are being treated terribly, lots of people are dying, and although the war may be officially over, iraq is far from being a safe place.

this seems to be something thata lot of people overlook. a war is not over just because one side declares it is over, although the official army may have been destroyed as long as there are people fighting there is a war going on. people re still going to die. just like this man did. he knew the risks, and he was killed. im not condoning the act of killing him, simply explaining that its not entirely surprising. he was in a war zone and got killed. thats what happens to people in war.

like i said in my previous post. one that was misinterpreted by some people. war doesnt have rules. its not honourable and its not pleasant. and you arent immune from it just because you happen to be a 'civilian'. it consists of thousands of people trying to kill each other and killing is not any more acceptable just because one man in uniform kills another man in uniform.

and now from what i have read the coalition is planning to remove all troops from iraq in a matter of months. i believe this to be quite possibly the worst thing that they could do. if they do this they have just gone and trashed a country then left, exactly what i feared would happen and why i did not support the war. this isnt some short term 'go kill the bad guys and come home with the glory' thing. the strongest thing the coalition could do now is accept that they are still in a place where their troops might die. and get on with fixing the place up. like i said. its not pleasant, and there are no rules to be obeyed. but as instigators of this war i expect them to finish the job they started, rather than making out that the iraqi people are ungrateful for the service provided, and dont deserve anymore help. which to me seems to be the way the press is heading at the moment.

 

[mat69]

I supported this war. I thought it'd be a good idea to finally remove Saddam and thought that the US and its supporters would be maybe able to install a democrazy at long sight. I knew that there would be many civilian deaths but I thought there would be less as if the sanctions would go on and if Saddam would still be on power.
But after the war was "ended" everything turned out to be a mess. They closed down the iraqi army, they did not prevent many people from looting and my greatest fear - that they only came for oil - became more and more reality. Instead of installing the most important things (water, food, electrizity ... --> they did install those important things on some occasions but imo they were to slow) for people they sacraficed time for other things.
And now having many "freedom fighters" (or whatever) and the first signs that the US might withdraw from Iraq I think that everything will get worse. If they withdraw it would be even more chaos as it is now imo. (maybe I am wrong considering that some towns are effectively controled by iraqi)

As Bob posted it's war and such things happen in a war, you can't be suprised. And it doesn't matter if it's a civilian or not, both kinds are killed anyway. A friend of mine was born in Bosnia but they escaped after the war started. Her uncle was beheaded as well, no one cared. It is not uncommon to chop off the arms, feet, nose ... in some african war zones, nearly no one cares. I think the media is ballooning this story.
It's sad but it happens and not only once.

 

[jaunty]

The media's ballooning certain parts of it, and it depends on whcih part of the media it is as to which part they emphasise.

Sean Hannity, Fox News et al. are loving it because they get to blow it sky high, and in turn make the prison abuse scandal look like kindergarten name calling by comparison. The extreme other side, like the whackjobs at Indymedia, get to say "THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE WARS! SEE WHAT YOU DID! THIS IS YOUR FAULT!" and make Bush et al. look even worse.

Overall though, the story's pretty much dead in the water as far as press coverage goes. News shows are more interesting in what the slack jawed slut from the prison photos has to say for herself.

 

[U/D/T/SNAKE]

I think allot of this comes down to simple perspective. There was no real perspective for entering the war or as to why. There was no real perspective as to why people would or would not support it. It only makes sense that when bad or good things happen that same hazy perspective is applied by all sides. None of it makes any sense. Its like a project that has no threads of logic intertwining and dependent on each other. No scope can be put around such a thing. As a result, and with no foundation, you see stories over blown/underblown, all sides arguing. The best way to know there is no foundation for something is if its initiators constantly change the reason for it being. It just confuses everything and noone is really sure how to intelligently argue any point for or against such a thing. So...things tend to get a little muddy or cloudy. Its tough to see, again perspective.

Edit:just added a word