CliffyB Talks Game Development

  • Two Factor Authentication is now available on BeyondUnreal Forums. To configure it, visit your Profile and look for the "Two Step Verification" option on the left side. We can send codes via email (may be slower) or you can set up any TOTP Authenticator app on your phone (Authy, Google Authenticator, etc) to deliver codes. It is highly recommended that you configure this to keep your account safe.

Sir_Brizz

Administrator
Staff member
Feb 3, 2000
26,021
86
48
Then where's the helicopter mechanic? You're completely ignoring that the problems exist by giving up because you can't find a helicopter mechanic or the guy who ported the game. Let's find that helicopter mechanic or those employees at Epic who are supposed to own and fix this problem. There's a very simple way to get rid of bitching and get rid of problems--FIX THEM. You wouldn't agree, but I am a fair person. If there's a problem I'm vocal about it. If there's not a problem, then there's nothing bad to be said and sometimes there's praise if something is really enjoyable. What you're doing here is the same thing Epic is doing by throwing the blame to someone or something else. It's the same old run-around.
I'm not ignoring he problem or giving up on it. I'm telling you that you are "talking to the wrong people" so to speak. Jeff Morris didn't produce or have anything to do with Gears PC. If you look in the manual, Rod Fergusson is the producer on that game.

You're essentially trying to talk to the company that owns the company that repairs helicopters instead of trying to talk to the repair people directly.
If Gears actually worked from start to finish and got support like Crysis has, then I'd have nothing bad to say about it. I have said a lot of negative things about Crysis' multiplayer aspect and a ton of positive things about the singleplayer and editor aspects. I do not shy away from giving good and bad opinions about what I experience. Gears thus far has been completely unspupported and only Windows Live has been getting regular fixes. To use your analogy, you're expecting me to be calm and get excited over "we're looking into it" when my helicopter is still missing panes of glass, half its engine, and a tail rotor. That's the state Gears is in right now on PC. Not to mention the fact that Epic employees are shooting it with paintballs.
Gears already had one title update (yeah, a patch). There's no reason to think they don't have at least one more in the works. I don't expect you to be calm and excited, I expect you to be reasonable. Aren't you a professional game developer? Besides, this is more like "1 out of 100 helicopters are missing a bolt and that could eventually cause a non-fatal problem under a certain situation". This isn't half of the game is missing.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

hal

Dictator
Staff member
Nov 24, 1998
21,409
19
38
55
------->
www.beyondunreal.com
Guys, try to keep your posts constructive and intelligently worded.

Also, tagging is not for making points that should be in your post. It's for categorizing and searching. Don't abuse that or your ability to tag will be taken away.
 

Molgan

T-minus whenever
Feb 13, 2008
413
0
0
Sweden
www.apskaft.com
Dude their are soooo many countries and places on this planet where no one is gaming ... what are YOU talking about. Instead of stating the obvious why not come up with some real numbers.
Well Europe has 2.5x the number of inhabitants compared to US, all gaming countries. Then add east Asia that is a heavy gaming part of the world (thou they tend to play strange strategy games mostly) and Oceania and you have a huge load of possible game buyers.
 
Last edited:

Wowbagger

Curing the infection...
May 20, 2000
667
0
16
Sweden
Visit site
PC gaming dead or not, we wouldnt have this discussion if Epic hadnt abandoned their "when its done" philosofy and rushed the game out for X-mas.
In that particular issue you let us down guys.
 
S

ScHlAuChi

Guest
As another developer guy (no i dont work at Epic) i can only backup what the Epic guys have said - the "classic" PC market where developers release AAA titles and can earn nice money is gone.
That market has changed completely now thanks to web-based games and all the other casual stuff like MMOs (HabboHotel &Co) or casual games like TheSims, Peggle etc...
Success storys of Portals like PopCap or NewGrounds is not surprising - the hardcore market is pretty much dead on the PC.

And for the people who bring up Crysis as an example of a PC game that sells well, that is very misleading, and even if you could say it a success - it really isnt.

The development costs of the game and engine was roughly 27.000.000$, now add all the costs for advertisment that EA had to do to promote the game, (not only them: http://www.digitalbattle.com/2008/02/14/nvidia-spent-5-million-on-crysis-promotion/ )
and we reach probably 40-50.000.000$ in total spendt for 1 single PC game.

EA has recently announced that Crysis has sold over 1 million copies - you can do the math and see that this is roughly enough to reach break-even. (hence they doing a Crysis 2 and 3 to recoup costs + earn some money)

Now to put this into perspective - the infamous Jeff Gerstman Kane & Lynch game has also sold more than 1 million copies - if this **** sold as much as Crysis, calling that a success is quite funny ;)
 

UnrealGrrl

Enemy flag carrier is Her!
Jun 16, 2000
1,696
6
36
www.unrealgrrl.com
IMHO the term "AAA" is overused by the game industry. And why in Cliffy's opinion to people play browser games so much? Maybe because there don't like Sims/WoW and there are no other quality, erm sorry, AAA games on the PC to enjoy.

The term "self-fulfilling prophecy" comes to mind...

EXCATLY - the Tail is wagging the Dog

(edit) its not so much the words but the sentiment given there (and in the Mark Rein article about consoles taking all the pc gamers away)... of course a designer is gonoing to want to work on a bigger/money project alot of the time, but then you also have your "pet" projects that you give just as much time and love to. (like mega stars who do offbroadway shows and indie films) I think that alot of pc gamers (and i know for me anyway) are just extremely disappointed that despite the lip service, it seems like the 'big bad console' is getting all the stars and the pc gamer (where it all started) is left holding the bag of who knows what...

i love UT3 and have always loved Epics devotion and support, but theres just a different feel out there lately we wish would somehow get dispelled :)
 
Last edited:

BigDragon

New Member
Jan 20, 2008
82
0
0
Reston, VA
I'm not ignoring he problem or giving up on it. I'm telling you that you are "talking to the wrong people" so to speak. Jeff Morris didn't produce or have anything to do with Gears PC. If you look in the manual, Rod Fergusson is the producer on that game.

You're essentially trying to talk to the company that owns the company that repairs helicopters instead of trying to talk to the repair people directly.
So how does one talk to the repair people directly? I don't see those repair people coming out of their cubicles to take input. I see the higher-ups coming out to see what's going on, demean their fans, and sort what they want to address out of all the things that need attention. Those repair people work under the higher-ups anyway. It's normally a trickle down effect. Last time my SUV needed service, if there was a problem and something was getting ignored I went to the shop manager or owner when the repairman wasn't around.

Gears already had one title update (yeah, a patch). There's no reason to think they don't have at least one more in the works. I don't expect you to be calm and excited, I expect you to be reasonable. Aren't you a professional game developer? Besides, this is more like "1 out of 100 helicopters are missing a bolt and that could eventually cause a non-fatal problem under a certain situation". This isn't half of the game is missing.
Alright, it's clear that I am not being completely reasonable. I will admit that the issues I've experienced with both Gears and UT3 are being made a hundred times more infuriating because of the way Jeff Morris/Wartourist treated me. I am still fuming over that. There's a reason why I and people I know identify me with dragons so closely.

Look, there are problems and I haven't seen them addressed yet even in patches so I'm not happy about it. I can't get through Act 3 on Gears because it crashes with a C++ runtime error. I can't save my progress because when my computer shuts down the save files disappear, and my computer is required to shut down when not in use due to security reasons. I go to play UT3 and it asks me for my cd-key daily at least once because I'm on a connection where the IP address changes a lot. I've been told all these wonderful things about the game only to find missing levels that were advertised, AI that drives tanks off the sides of cliffs, and severs that kick me off because it took too long to download/load a map, to name a few. I have never had this rotten of an experience with any game I've ever owned. Most of the problems I've ever experienced I can fix (ie: Prophet not running for cover, Valerie getting stuck against a wall, opponent cars traveling at unrealistic speeds, an impassible trap in a carnival-themed map, game not detecting all my ram, etc. just for example), but not this time around. I know all this stuff is rehashed from myself and other people, but it seems like it's all been ignored. Maybe I'm old-school when I expect a friendly insert to inquire specifics at a problem and then a message to verify it's recognized and on the to-do list. Maybe I'm old-school for being someone who would sit there on the "battlefield" with people who like and hate something and try to reach out to both sides instead of playing the role of an elitist who can't be bothered. Maybe I'm old-school for harping on developers like Frontier about the quality of their products when there's problems and then being all smiles and contributory once the issues are addressed.

I apologize that I've been so angry towards these issues and beating the drums so hard.
 

suibhne

New Member
Feb 17, 2005
18
0
0
NPD numbers are unreliable due to the exclusion of non-retail delivery. (Comparing NPD data for The Orange Box to NPD data for World of Warcraft is apples and oranges. Even Bioshock's underwhelming numbers for last August were quoted without any reference to digital delivery, which could have been significant through Steam and other services; Bioshock was pre-loadable through Steam and was heavily promoted there.) And non-US territories can actually produce significant sales in many cases; Germany e.g. is famously loyal to its PC games. Part of the problem in this discussion is that the only people with accurate numbers, including all PC copies delivered digitally, are not able to share them.

That still wouldn't bring PC numbers up to console numbers, of course, but the entire discussion - throughout the internet - is currently based on nothing more than vague guesses.

Entropy, you may decry the use of "consolization", but it accurately captures what many people noticed about UT3's usability. Out of the box, it feels like a port from console, not the other way around; interface elements are oversized and sparse relative to many other PC games (and obviously relative to previous iterations of UT). Pointing out that UT3 is more accurately described as a PC title ported to console doesn't change the basic reality that it appears to have been designed primarily with console limitations in mind. Perhaps it was simply poor interface design rather than console-oriented design, but I think it's understandable that people keep mentioning "consolization". This is even more true because, between the "beta demo" and the retail release, there appeared to have been virtually no changes in the interface, which really made it seem that the retail interface was satisfactory to Epic rather than a subpar waypost still a few patches shy of "final". (And yes, I realize that the next patch fixes or mitigates many of the interface problems, and I'm looking forward to it.)

Part of the challenge is that consoles don't really have a native interface, so I think there are fewer inherited expectations of usability parameters in console games. In the past, some PC game designers have noted that PC games can also be viewed as hermetically distinct from the rest of the system - you boot into the game and boom, you're in an entirely distinct interface - but I've come to believe that this fundamentally misunderstands the way people use computers. Users typically expect some consistency in all other apps, and games are not wholly exempt from that; when you ship a game with an interface that foils basic expectations of mouse-driven control, you're bound to frustrate a lot of PC gamers.
 
Last edited:

Anuban

Your reward is that you are still alive
Apr 4, 2005
1,094
0
0
My last word on the topic is a question to the devs at Epic:

Look you should have known that based on todays PC games and your own history of PC games that the UI was going to be a MAJOR issue for the UT PC community ... I mean even if you say well we didn't think about it then I would have to respond with "Oh really? Then what was the purpose of the beta demo and let us all recall that it was indeed called a BETA Demo and MOST of us I am sure thought it was called that for a reason and when the final product came out many issues would be resolved. Plenty of folks were crying/screaming/kicking about the UI when the beta first appeared so I would think you folks would have gotten the message very clearly and done whatever you had to to NOT release UT3 in the state that you did. So I have to say to me this is your own fault ... having to hear non-stop complaints abouts the product ... of all the things you dudes should have gathered from the demo beta was that the UI in its present form was unacceptable to PC UT gamers plain and simple. That you apparently ignored that feeling of the community adds even more fuel to the fire that burns within folks everytime they start the game. I just don't get why you wouldn't look at UT2K4 and even your own Gears of War PC game and understand that the UI was/is just a bad UI for a serious PC game like UT3.

Anytime it takes a tool like Brad G.'s Tweaker to do the things that should be part of the UI that is just poor development and poor understanding of what your core audience desires ... (I mean seriously thank goodness for Brad G. ... for many in the community he is a godsend and the time he has spent improving something that should have been in place and pretty good in the first place says a lot about the kind of person he is ... didn't you devs at Epic have any real serious meetings/discussions about the UI before you even made the beta demo available?) Although the core audience was screaming about this ... I don't understand. It's like you folks even knew this because there are so many ini settings that are tweakable ... but surely you can't think all PC users are good at modifying these settings without some type of GUI.

It really gets me ... but anyway that is it ... I am done ... now I am going to just game for the rest of the day. UT3 is what it is at the end of the day and since I have fun with certain aspects of it that is cool ... lets just hope the patches keep coming and the product continues to improve.
 
Last edited:

Deapblade

New Member
Jul 15, 2004
223
0
0
<warning, long developer rant>
...
Flame on, brethren.


os][ris;2080268 said:
i like this guy. seems like he has a functioning brain..
Me two. But what I like even more, is that upon return to this threat I see two devs defending their game and giving some good arguments. That's really old school Epic attitude there, so maybe you guys could take that as an argument that they do actually care about PC gamers. I mean c'mon guys, how many devs from different company's read tiresome fan forums and dare to post there even though they know, most of the people there will be biased and will relie more on emotional arguments then on factual arguments?

Both of you... Id love to see where you are getting your numbers.

95% of ppl at BU love pink underwear according to a recent poll.

ROFLMAO or like someone else said here:
ROFL_MAO.jpg
 
Last edited:

LMN8R

New Member
Jan 22, 2008
27
0
0
I can't believe people still use NPD as if it's relevant at all to PC games.

If NPD can report 88,000 sales for Crysis, and it can go on to sell more than a million copies worldwide after taking digital distribution and Europe into consideration, god only knows what Call of Duty 4's 350,000 sales on PC according to NPD would turn out to.

Especially after you consider the fact that Call of Duty 4 has been Steam's top-selling game since release, and Crysis wasn't even on Steam.
 

EdWinchester

New Member
Feb 1, 2008
15
0
0
I'm not sure I follow. We want a healthy community on all the platforms we support. As game creators we want as many people playing our games as possible.

am not sure i follow either: As a gamer i want to purchase and play good games, guess we both did not get the wanted result, but then again you might get the highest sales number ever and if you are lucky you can close the master server down after 6 months.

I understand there is room for several types of games and one game can overshine another, but seriously even everyone on this forum is saying lets have a game of CoD, even the people who defend ut3 like the holy grail.

Wormbo said the truth in the deleted thread on epic forums, there was 100s of post of feedback on the beta, but really speaking was nothing todo with asking the community, it was just to ensure the game did not crash on 95% of all pcs.

Now I find it good all that epic does to fix and shape up the game, but you danced with the devil(gamespy, cant play with login server is down, no linux client 3 months later, no dedicated server from the start) and is now paying the price. Consoles versions and a somewhat fixed release for 2007, it was all just "a bridge to far".

I will keep an eye on the updates, but the game is off my harddrive and based on the recommendation of the BU users CoD4 now spins instead.
 
Last edited:

Sir_Brizz

Administrator
Staff member
Feb 3, 2000
26,021
86
48
I can't believe people still use NPD as if it's relevant at all to PC games.

If NPD can report 88,000 sales for Crysis, and it can go on to sell more than a million copies worldwide after taking digital distribution and Europe into consideration, god only knows what Call of Duty 4's 350,000 sales on PC according to NPD would turn out to.

Especially after you consider the fact that Call of Duty 4 has been Steam's top-selling game since release, and Crysis wasn't even on Steam.
It's important to note that the 1 million number for Crysis was reported by the publisher of Crysis. The actual sales numbers are not confirmed anywhere, and many publishers considered "shipped units" the equivalent of "sold units" (we are talking about EA, come on).
 

LMN8R

New Member
Jan 22, 2008
27
0
0
Who cares? First of all, if retailers buy copies that go unsold, they can be sent back to EA for a refund - for purposes of not screwing over their stock holders, it would be foolish to consider a shipped item to be "shipped permanently". For all intents and purposes, if a publisher ships a copy, they get the money for that copy, and they're not going to screw over stockholders by refusing to alter their numbers when copies come back to them from retailers.

Second of all, if EA can convince retailers to buy a million copies of their niche game that had next to no marketing, it's not hard to believe that 2-3 million copies or more of Call of Duty 4 could be sold, considering how popular of a series it is.
 

-Entropy-

New Member
Feb 14, 2008
27
0
0
It's important to note that the 1 million number for Crysis was reported by the publisher of Crysis. The actual sales numbers are not confirmed anywhere, and many publishers considered "shipped units" the equivalent of "sold units" (we are talking about EA, come on).

Also note that if you use that same metric, UT3 has "sold" almost a million units to date, worldwide release. So take it with a grain of salt. :)
 

Sir_Brizz

Administrator
Staff member
Feb 3, 2000
26,021
86
48
Second of all, if EA can convince retailers to buy a million copies of their niche game that had next to no marketing, it's not hard to believe that 2-3 million copies or more of Call of Duty 4 could be sold, considering how popular of a series it is.
I didn't say anything about CoD4, but I'd be surprised if there were more than 2 million sales on PC worldwide.
 

suibhne

New Member
Feb 17, 2005
18
0
0
Also note that if you use that same metric, UT3 has "sold" almost a million units to date, worldwide release. So take it with a grain of salt. :)

Does that mean you have confirmation that EA was reporting only units shipped, not sold?
 

Sir_Brizz

Administrator
Staff member
Feb 3, 2000
26,021
86
48
Why would it mean that he did? He was responding to my post, and most publishers use units shipped, not units sold to end user.

Note that by most I mean "almost every single one".
 

suibhne

New Member
Feb 17, 2005
18
0
0
Why would it mean that he did? He was responding to my post, and most publishers use units shipped, not units sold to end user.

Note that by most I mean "almost every single one".

EA's actual announcement to investors, tho, was that Crysis had "gone platinum" - which generally means copies sold, not shipped. Don't get me wrong, I don't trust EA any more than anyone else, but dismissing this with no data is silly. Even The Witcher cleared a staggeringly high number of copies worldwide, approaching 1 million and possibly exceeding it by now, so I don't find it impossible to believe that Crysis did so in the worldwide market after 3 months of sales including the holiday season.