Bush and freedom.......
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Taken from wikipedia:
Okay, so it was his organization that provided said information to MI6, while apparently simulatenously conducting bombings inside of Iraq. Grand.
See, this is the reaction most people tend to give when an opposing viewpoint is given to a situation they feel very strongly about. It just goes to show, whether you are conservative or liberal, you are not smarter than everyone else: you are different. Unfortunately, people like to think they are (called self-serving bias, psychology majors!), which is pretty much why arguing on the internet (and mosttimes in person) never, ever gets anywhere. Also, the flip side of that reaction is shock:
No, it wasn't. So called "confidence wars" (my term, not theirs) have been raging since time began. You might remember the worlds largest of these: the Cold War.
I am in the military as of this summer when my contract begins, so I really dont know where you're leading with that comment. Also: you never "have" to do anything, and if you tell your recruiter that you "have" to join the army, there's a fair chance he won't sign you up. If you don't believe in the war, I don't think a warlike institution such as the army is a good career choice for you.
As opposed to what? Fake reporting? Tidbit of info: all reporting is propaganda.
*...deep breath...*
I understand that the rest of the thread is going to go somewhat to the tune of: OMG I CANT BELIEVE YOU DISAGREE WITH ME HARRM FAG because of the general bias of the forum tends to be liberal (that, or the ones who speak tend to be liberal), and I often feel that opinions are good despite the semmingly universal ethic that they are not. Granted, people are going to post horrific stories about things they have heard/read that have 'happened' in Iraq. Of course bad things are going to happen, on both sides even. I haven't seen any posts about allied nations' civilians being executed over there. From this, I could easily draw the conclusion that apparently the hatred of Bush seems to dominate the love for your fellow man.
But I'm not trying to build a case either way. This is war. War is ugly, and war is brutal, and nobody is ever the good guy in war.
--Harrm
Okay, so it was his organization that provided said information to MI6, while apparently simulatenously conducting bombings inside of Iraq. Grand.
See, this is the reaction most people tend to give when an opposing viewpoint is given to a situation they feel very strongly about. It just goes to show, whether you are conservative or liberal, you are not smarter than everyone else: you are different. Unfortunately, people like to think they are (called self-serving bias, psychology majors!), which is pretty much why arguing on the internet (and mosttimes in person) never, ever gets anywhere. Also, the flip side of that reaction is shock:
No, it wasn't. So called "confidence wars" (my term, not theirs) have been raging since time began. You might remember the worlds largest of these: the Cold War.
I am in the military as of this summer when my contract begins, so I really dont know where you're leading with that comment. Also: you never "have" to do anything, and if you tell your recruiter that you "have" to join the army, there's a fair chance he won't sign you up. If you don't believe in the war, I don't think a warlike institution such as the army is a good career choice for you.
As opposed to what? Fake reporting? Tidbit of info: all reporting is propaganda.
*...deep breath...*
I understand that the rest of the thread is going to go somewhat to the tune of: OMG I CANT BELIEVE YOU DISAGREE WITH ME HARRM FAG because of the general bias of the forum tends to be liberal (that, or the ones who speak tend to be liberal), and I often feel that opinions are good despite the semmingly universal ethic that they are not. Granted, people are going to post horrific stories about things they have heard/read that have 'happened' in Iraq. Of course bad things are going to happen, on both sides even. I haven't seen any posts about allied nations' civilians being executed over there. From this, I could easily draw the conclusion that apparently the hatred of Bush seems to dominate the love for your fellow man.
But I'm not trying to build a case either way. This is war. War is ugly, and war is brutal, and nobody is ever the good guy in war.
--Harrm
Hmmmm. That's an interesting comment. With permission, I shall use it in future arguments.Harrm said:
Harrm, you believe opinion is a good thing? Strange, I can't remember an opinion EVER being of any advantage.
Oh and I remember reading that argueing is indeed pretty pointless, since both sides will just take their original prejudices and move it to a new extreme (polarisation). However, it does depend on the objective in a discussian, when I argue I often just want to know what another guy has to say about something, I rarely try to 'win' a discussion.
Oh and I remember reading that argueing is indeed pretty pointless, since both sides will just take their original prejudices and move it to a new extreme (polarisation). However, it does depend on the objective in a discussian, when I argue I often just want to know what another guy has to say about something, I rarely try to 'win' a discussion.
Can't say I know many people that see him as a fellow man. But in all honesty, there has been a post about civilians being hold as hostage (by zundfolge I think).
To prove what? That people aren't perfect, aren't honest and quite often hypocrites? Duh?
Not to pick on Rosdam, but I have work tonight, and this is the last time I'll be able to get on until late tomorrow, and he's the only who has posted:
He hasn't posted in this thread at all...?
Erm...the US Constitution and cessation from the throne?
I never once spoke about "winning" the discussion...but I'd like to know where you read that arguing is pointless? That doesn't seem like it should be an all-encompassing statement, since argument certainly serves a purpose on both psychological and biological needs.
--Harrm
He hasn't posted in this thread at all...?
Erm...the US Constitution and cessation from the throne?
I never once spoke about "winning" the discussion...but I'd like to know where you read that arguing is pointless? That doesn't seem like it should be an all-encompassing statement, since argument certainly serves a purpose on both psychological and biological needs.
--Harrm
Pointless was my own interpretation. And I meant that zundfolge once posted a thread. As for the US constitution, please do explain why that's an opinion (when you have the time of course).
Right to clarify you think that its acceptable for the goverment to stop the publication of articals like this on the grounds of "national security"?
-How.
No, it shows little more than emphatic invective. Reading more into it is sophomoric and silly, as is the every popular let's-not-argue-on-the-internets sentiment.Harrm said:
And that one really worked out well for everyone involved.Harrm said:
And I wish you well, all the same. I brought it up because the overwhelming majority of people who talk about 'confidence wars' and unwavering support love war and know nothing of it. I'm not bringing it up because I think it makes me great, or anything— only that the full ramifications of war have been weighing on me heavily lately, and that I am likely to be much more intimately acquainted soon enough. I mistook your statement for the jingoist hypocrisy that has become unfortunately common in this country, which all too often is quick to paint all military as blindly in love with war.Harrm said:
Regardless, bandying about aphorisms about 'confidence wars' is nothing short of an insult to everything this country is supposed to stand for. We do not blindly follow our leaders because they will lead us, and we do not blindly support our wars simply because they are happening. Bad press is not a threat to our soldiers. A lack of press is a direct threat to survival of this country. I will not stand by and be blackmailed into supporting a war built on a house of lies. If you want to talk about people who are direct threats to our soldiers, I suggest you start with the politicians who so willingly put them in the sand. The only direct threat to the America I believe in is people believing we have a duty not to question. I will not defend freedom abroad by abandoning at home.
Though I have to admit, I wonder how much of the process you've thought through if you think a recruiter would turn me down for having misgivings about anything short of liking girls. Recruiters are liars, and for your sake, I do sincerely hope you know everything yours told cannot be relied upon, and everything yours didn't will one day bite you in the ass.
I think, the reason you are all arguing on this forum is for the same basic simple reasons that we went and stayed in war with iraq. Concern for self (forum rep/oil for the country, language skills/military economy), and concern for others (do they believe their point of view is right?/do they believe their leader and government is right?).
I was gone for a bit and the thread died. Oh well.
"Hey, this constitution is a pretty good way of running the country."
"I Agree. Let's adopt it."
Indeed it didn't, but it could have been much, much worse for us had support failed on our side before the Soviets'.
I never said my support was unwaivering, but I am willing to put my pride aside as say that there are good things and bad things tied to it, rather than making a broad generalization that "it is wrong" or "it is right." 99.9% of us suffer from groupthink. Taking a hardline stance puts you firmly in that 99.9%.
Also, my family has a long history of military service and loss of life from military service. Every single member of my family is or was in the military one way or another (except my brother). I lost several uncles to war conflicts. Saying I have no respect of the ins and outs of war is a bit offensive.
No, I don't know where you pulled that from. I was saying that information should be presented in a standardized, non-bias format so as to not put the war under good or bad pretexts because overconfidence either way can present a danger to the troops.
That doesn't make anything I've said any less true. There comes a point in every cliche's life where it becomes just that...cliche'. People tend to bash things because they seem ever-popular and once they become general knowledge, infantile in nature. Newsflash: Shakespeare is cliche', and is currently being taught in schools worldwide.
Also: "Not reading into things too much" is almost never a good idea.
Well, when you get right down to it, every argument is virtually the same: I'm right vs. you're right. As you climb up the ladder, it's this same idea impressioned over and over again. The idea of this is that we try to achieve idealistic harmony. The problem with that is as groups we tend to villify those we percieve different than ourselves, which I figure is why I tend to get a strong reaction in this forum when I disagree with others.
Arethusa: When are you going in? They have a buddy program in the Army where you can join up with someone you know and get put in the same general unit. I'd rather go into this with present company than with a bunch of idiots I don't know.
--Harrm
"Hey, this constitution is a pretty good way of running the country."
"I Agree. Let's adopt it."
Indeed it didn't, but it could have been much, much worse for us had support failed on our side before the Soviets'.
I never said my support was unwaivering, but I am willing to put my pride aside as say that there are good things and bad things tied to it, rather than making a broad generalization that "it is wrong" or "it is right." 99.9% of us suffer from groupthink. Taking a hardline stance puts you firmly in that 99.9%.
Also, my family has a long history of military service and loss of life from military service. Every single member of my family is or was in the military one way or another (except my brother). I lost several uncles to war conflicts. Saying I have no respect of the ins and outs of war is a bit offensive.
No, I don't know where you pulled that from. I was saying that information should be presented in a standardized, non-bias format so as to not put the war under good or bad pretexts because overconfidence either way can present a danger to the troops.
That doesn't make anything I've said any less true. There comes a point in every cliche's life where it becomes just that...cliche'. People tend to bash things because they seem ever-popular and once they become general knowledge, infantile in nature. Newsflash: Shakespeare is cliche', and is currently being taught in schools worldwide.
Also: "Not reading into things too much" is almost never a good idea.
Well, when you get right down to it, every argument is virtually the same: I'm right vs. you're right. As you climb up the ladder, it's this same idea impressioned over and over again. The idea of this is that we try to achieve idealistic harmony. The problem with that is as groups we tend to villify those we percieve different than ourselves, which I figure is why I tend to get a strong reaction in this forum when I disagree with others.
Arethusa: When are you going in? They have a buddy program in the Army where you can join up with someone you know and get put in the same general unit. I'd rather go into this with present company than with a bunch of idiots I don't know.
--Harrm
It is, and for that much, I apologize. Like I said, just tends to be true of the popular 'I love war' people in the US right now, and I mistook your comments for that.Harrm said:
At the moment, I'm not. To be honest, I'm trying my hardest not to, and in a week, I'm planning on going back to my old job and getting a second and working my ass off until February. With some cash and enough luck, I might be able to move out to California and get enough financial aid to go to school as an independant.Harrm said:
But all that is obviously shaky, so the army's still a strong possibility. If things don't look like they're coming together by mid February, I'm just going to sign up then and haggle at MEPS for option 40 on my contract and some good bonuses. I hear they need Rangers badly enough right now that my chances of getting that are very strong. I don't know what your plans are, but if you are planning on going in around that time or a bit later and I do go in, I wouldn't mind doing the buddy program at all. Don't know if you'd want to go in for the same stuff, though, or even if the buddy program extends past basic (and even if it does, past stuff like AIT?).
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Arethusa said:
I don't think it's so much that people love war, as much as it's that they will go to any length to not have to recognize issues that are closer to home. Think about how much debate there is over Iraq, then think about all of the important issues that have no debate. However, this is probably true for most of the worlds population. Just think, you don't have to spend much time looking at your own problems when it's so much easier to judge ours.
ecale3
Sniper - May be harmful to your health.
Derelan said:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! No it won't, and you're either very niave or completely retarded for thinking so. The world will find peace my ass. The world will find peace (or something that sounds similar, pieces perhaps) when humans destroy themselves (and probably the planet with them).
Think what you will of me, just don't lie to yourself. So long as there is life on this planet, this world will never see peace.
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