Anti-Establishmentarianism discussion

[Stilgar]

Originally posted by Frostblood

Cactus : Always make your decisions based on emotions, but never your own. I know what you mean about changing the system from within, but revoloutions do work...just look at afganistan. But thats a different kind of problem, the problems in the west won't be solved by revoloution or "anarchist" kids.

But even then other peoples emotions can be misleading, even purposely so.... that's something I've learn't the hard way while flatting with the same people for too long. To me that quote sounds like another dogma that is just a part of a bigger picture of knowledge, trust and wisdom.


On the other note I agree with you insofar as that I believe revolutions have their place, and the west is so embedded in it's own ways that a revolution would be of little use to us.
If we can push for change by moving through the system until we are ones holding the leash instead of feeling sorry for ourselves for being subordinate, and trying to bite the hand that feeds us, then maybe we can find new ways to realign our world views and tackle problems from within our own society instead of hypocritically pointing the big finger.

 

[Cactus]

but how stable do you think the afghani revolution is going to be? without international forces that are pulling for "calm"? this really goes back to what i was saying, the international community is the big brother that's the only thing stops the northern alliance from killing everybody that's not one of them, and the only thing that is forcing the northern alliance to participate in a multi-ethnic government. without those rules and guidelines, there would be no civility, there would be no mercy, there will be tribal wars after tribal wars.

 

[jreister]

It becomes a second Somalia IMO. The signs are there. I hope the afghans are more intelligent.

 

[jreister]

how do you justify that statment???
I care about other people??.. when I said that I appalud when "bad" things happen to people that deserve it.. I was referring to people like murders, and the like.. I am totally in support of an electric BENCH.. that way we can get more people on it at once...I think that people like Suan Smith sould be drowned then revived and then drowned again... punshiment should fit the crime.. and I just happen to belive in stronger punishment.........
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YEAH BAY-BEE!!! /me gives SW a high fiver

very christian. Jesus surely would be the same opinion.
paulus would sit his three to life sentence and the catholic church would never exist
(maybe it ould have been better)

 

[Cat Fuzz]

Originally posted by jreister


very christian. Jesus surely would be the same opinion.
paulus would sit his three to life sentence and the catholic church would never exist
(maybe it ould have been better)

That would be fine with me. The catholic church is nothing but a giant beaurocracy (sp?) that is misleading millions with their rituals and rules.

 

[jreister]

At least they (the catholics) contributed a lot of fine art, architecture and music, whereas the protestants and the puritans tend to be dry and bloodless.
Of course their rituals are quite silly, but at least they make a great show of it!

 

[Stilgar]

Cat Fuzz: it's bureaucracy

 

[Frostblood]

Cactus : there will be teething problems...but it will be stable in the long run I think...and anyway, how do you get rid of a regime like the taliban without some sort of violence or at least open rebellion against them?

Stilgar : Ultimatly, all decisions should be based on emotions because they are the only fundamental decider beteween good and bad, desirable and undesirable, positive and negative...nothing has a meaning or a value unless we give it one. Of course, whos emotions you base your decisions on in a particular situation is the big question, and one I can't answer.

If you believe in God ( which I do ), I think the only reason He cares about things in this world is because we care...events on this level would be meaningless to an omnipotent being but our thoughts might matter more.

 

[Cactus]

on hiatus for thanxgiving, back sunday, don't get into a religious thing. i warned of this before. or do if you want, since i won't be around to read it.

 

[Stilgar]

Originally posted by Frostblood


Stilgar : Ultimatly, all decisions should be based on emotions because they are the only fundamental decider beteween good and bad, desirable and undesirable, positive and negative...nothing has a meaning or a value unless we give it one. Of course, whos emotions you base your decisions on in a particular situation is the big question, and one I can't answer.

*snip* for Cactus :>

Sometimes my decisions are based on knowledge, and not on anybodys emotions, not even mine.....
While I believe some knowledge is based on emotion, the rest seems far from it

 

[Cactus]

all of life is a cost-benefit analysis. there's no good or bad, wrong or right, there's the maximization of utility, and that's about it. the game of life is hard to play, hte trick is not to be dealt good cards, but to play the poor hands well, and to do that means out-thinking people, maximizing the utility you get from each of your actions, not being foolish and rash, but thinking about your actions and their benefits to you.

 

[Stilgar]

Originally posted by Cactus
all of life is a cost-benefit analysis. there's no good or bad, wrong or right, there's the maximization of utility, and that's about it. the game of life is hard to play, hte trick is not to be dealt good cards, but to play the poor hands well, and to do that means out-thinking people, maximizing the utility you get from each of your actions, not being foolish and rash, but thinking about your actions and their benefits to you.

it's a shame alot of younger generations see this as 'minimal effort' - 'maximum rewards' and this in turn contributes to the what some like to call Instantism.... Instantism feeds capitalism unlike anything we've ever seen before..... apart from war...

 

[Cactus]

ah but you misunderstand, it's narrow to limit "benefit" to only the monetary, because that just assumes the people won't be socially conscious to other issues. however, this is certainly not hte case, nor are the two concepts mutually exclusive.

one method to think about it is just using the example i gave iwth the time square initiative, it's maximizing social welfare, a benefit, for everyone.

the other, and the way i justify it to myself is this: i consider morality and my conscience, when they are soothed, a natural benefit, it makes me feel good when i know i'm not out there putting babies on spikes. in fact, there's no amount of "benefit" that putting babies on spikes can bring me, at the "cost" of me having to live with msyelf for all eternity knowing that i put babies on spikes. morality can factor into this equation in such a way that doing immoral things are a "cost" to you. and if morality is ingrained in a person's mind correctly, it should. and that is what i mean.

ah thanksgiving break... must... sleep....

 

[Cat Fuzz]

Originally posted by Stilgar
Cat Fuzz: it's bureaucracy

LOL Thanks dude. Although, I'll never remember that.

 

[Stilgar]

Originally posted by Cactus
ah but you misunderstand, it's narrow to limit "benefit" to only the monetary, because that just assumes the people won't be socially conscious to other issues. however, this is certainly not hte case, nor are the two concepts mutually exclusive.

one method to think about it is just using the example i gave iwth the time square initiative, it's maximizing social welfare, a benefit, for everyone.

the other, and the way i justify it to myself is this: i consider morality and my conscience, when they are soothed, a natural benefit, it makes me feel good when i know i'm not out there putting babies on spikes. in fact, there's no amount of "benefit" that putting babies on spikes can bring me, at the "cost" of me having to live with msyelf for all eternity knowing that i put babies on spikes. morality can factor into this equation in such a way that doing immoral things are a "cost" to you. and if morality is ingrained in a person's mind correctly, it should. and that is what i mean.

ah thanksgiving break... must... sleep....

but you see, I dont limit that to monetary benefits, I said it's a shame that some do

 

[Stilgar]

The self governing sense of morality you talk about sure does make alot of sense.... but there are many more things about us which simply dont make sense.....and can't be confined to the sphere of moral relativity.... if that makes sense....

 

[Frostblood]

"all of life is a cost-benefit analysis. there's no good or bad, wrong or right, there's the maximization of utility, and that's about it. the game of life is hard to play, hte trick is not to be dealt good cards, but to play the poor hands well, and to do that means out-thinking people, maximizing the utility you get from each of your actions, not being foolish and rash, but thinking about your actions and their benefits to you."

A cost-benefit anylysis in moral terms. Will this action ultimatly do more good than evil? Its like I said about bin laden, his actions might ultimatly do more good than evil although that was the opposite of the intent. There is a fundamental good or bad, right or wrong, but only because we complicate matters by being sentient and saying there is. Pain is merely an electrical signal but because we have evolved to consider it a "bad" thing, causing pain is "wrong". In cases of conflict of views the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. This doesn't mean that the 'moral majority' is always right, but that whatever action causes the least pain/most benefit is the right one. Of course, this doesnt lead to much personal gain but if everyone did it...

 

[lucifix]

[/b]A cost-benefit anylysis in moral terms. Will this action ultimatly do more good than evil? Its like I said about bin laden, his actions might ultimatly do more good than evil although that was the opposite of the intent. There is a fundamental good or bad, right or wrong, but only because we complicate matters by being sentient and saying there is. Pain is merely an electrical signal but because we have evolved to consider it a "bad" thing, causing pain is "wrong". In cases of conflict of views the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. This doesn't mean that the 'moral majority' is always right, but that whatever action causes the least pain/most benefit is the right one. Of course, this doesnt lead to much personal gain but if everyone did it... [/B][/QUOTE]

i always wondered if we were taught that things such as pain werent bad would it really bothere us. we may have saw pain as a *good* thing along with pleasure/happiness/etc.......just some of the odd **** i think about

 

[Frostblood]

Thats a very good question Lucifix...I think that whatever we are told pain will always be considered "bad" and sex and power will always be "good" because it is so deeply ingrained in the mind, by evoloution. Almost all human beheivior is geared towards survival and reproduction and trying to convince people that something that they have "believed" since the brain first evolved would fail completely.

 

[lucifix]

Originally posted by Frostblood
Thats a very good question Lucifix...I think that whatever we are told pain will always be considered "bad" and sex and power will always be "good" because it is so deeply ingrained in the mind, by evoloution. Almost all human beheivior is geared towards survival and reproduction and trying to convince people that something that they have "believed" since the brain first evolved would fail completely.

exactly, its all in the brain.i think everything is in our heads. like the "liars" idont know the medical term, but you know what i mean, they can actually make their lies be the truth in their own minds. they just dont stick to their story they actually believe their own lies are the truth.......i dont think i explained that good, but oh well