Anti-Establishmentarianism discussion

[Claw]

Originally posted by lucifix
well if their parents are sop stupid that they dont protect them then its the survival of the fittest. i look at the animal kingdom as an example as how we should live.

Good point.

I'd like to direct your eyes to wolves. They got ritualized fights, meaning they don't bite each other to death. When a wolf offers his throat, he's spared. I see that as kind of instinctive morality, although the term may be misleading.
Wolves follow certain rules, that is why the pack is strong. IF they wouldn't follow rules, the leader would be killed when he goes to sleep.
Actually, I often find it amusing how creatures without our intellect appear so much more reasonable than our own species.
Then again, I wouldn't want to be an old wolf. Guess nothing's perfect

 

[lucifix]

yes let's all go put babies on f*cking spikes now

how did you know i was a fan of Vlad Dracul?

 

[lucifix]

Originally posted by Claw


Good point.

I'd like to direct your eyes to wolves. They got ritualized fights, meaning they don't bite each other to death. When a wolf offers his throat, he's spared. I see that as kind of instinctive morality, although the term may be misleading.
Wolves follow certain rules, that is why the pack is strong. IF they wouldn't follow rules, the leader would be killed when he goes to sleep.
Actually, I often find it amusing how creatures without our intellect appear so much more reasonable than our own species.
Then again, I wouldn't want to be an old wolf. Guess nothing's perfect

im glad you understood that. am i really that hard to understand?? if so i will try to say things more acurately. this is just the way i am people, im not trying to come off as an hardass or anything........

 

[lucifix]

cactus what i meant by "after i die i wont give a ****" is that i will cease to exist hence i cant give a **** because i am DEAD. i hope the best for my son and his offspring.......i love him more than anything in this world. he is the ONLY reason i havent taken my own life.....yet.......

 

[Frostblood]

"I'd like to direct your eyes to wolves. They got ritualized fights, meaning they don't bite each other to death. When a wolf offers his throat, he's spared. I see that as kind of instinctive morality, although the term may be misleading.
Wolves follow certain rules, that is why the pack is strong. IF they wouldn't follow rules, the leader would be killed when he goes to sleep.
Actually, I often find it amusing how creatures without our intellect appear so much more reasonable than our own species.
Then again, I wouldn't want to be an old wolf. Guess nothing's perfect "

But of course. This is in humans as well, but unfortunatly for all of us the moral instinct is much weaker than the self preservation and self improvement drives...some animals however have social instincts which are dominant, ants being the most obvious examples. Of course, ants originally only grouped together so that the individual ants have a better chance of survival, but now they are inextricably linked...no ant could survive for long without other ants.

 

[Frostblood]

Lucifix : I see what you mean, people should try to fight back, but if you were a little kid with a gun pointed at your head, I dont think that would be what was on your mind...and even if it was, what could you do? Just because someone doesn't fight back, does that mean they dont deserve any help?
As for not caring about what happens when you're gone, this seems to be the view of most people in the world, but think what the world would be like if Churchill had said "Screw the french, i'll be dead in 10 years anyway, who cares?"

Cactus : If someone wants to impale babys on spikes, they should be imprisoned, preferably for life. If on the other hand they are part of some cult that gets off on impaling each other on spikes, fine, let them ( as long as no-one was forced into it ). What people do of their own free will is theyre own choice and noone should have the right to prevent them from doing it, but if they try and drag anyone else into it then they must be stopped.

 

[Claw]

Originally posted by lucifix
i didnt mean not to listen to other people. i simply meant if you wont follow the authority of your parents then why would abide by the goverments authority

Because the government has power. I may decide to break certain rules, but I indeed fear punishment, which I consider wise.


Oh, well. I guess that isn't a very moral reason but I don't really respect the government much.

Cactus meant I should do something about it then. But I can't. To change something you need power, and to gain it within the system, you need certain abilities. Like charisma. And a certaain way of dealing with people and know which strings to pull. Not my field. I do not believe I have much chance to reach power within the system, so why bother trying? I can do other stuff with my time. Besides, I do believe the only way to change the bad things about society would be people to change. But I do not see any relevant change, really.
Actually, I do not even believe democracy to be such a great step ahead. I mean, our leaders just know now that tyrants are opposed, so they leave us a little room, and make us believe we had power. Only we don't. Most decisisons our government makes are li'll laws we don't even hear about, or they pass laws no matter how much people complain. We elected them, now they can basically do as they please. OH, in theory they shouldn't 'cos we may not elect them again. But that doesn't seem to frighten them much. That's because most people are indeed stupid and easily manipulated. And I do not know whi I should elect instead. Our former opposition hasn't porven better than our former government.
Argh, whatever.
The problem is, as I said b4, people. They suck. There may be persons I like, but people are assholes, and don't tell me about how sympathetic everyone was after the WTC incident. People always discover their "good sides" at such times. It's how they behave in everyday life that matters. Just think of this firm owner we hear about in Germany who lost a good many emloyees who were working in the WTC. He immediately promised to tace care of the families of the deceased employees, and about a week later he had already cancelled their paycheckes and didn't raise a finger to help anyone, claiming he had to think of his surviving workers. I hear he was interviewed in his penthouse in Manhattan. Hah. I am so impressed, capitalist pig.

 

[lucifix]

Originally posted by Frostblood
Lucifix : I see what you mean, people should try to fight back, but if you were a little kid with a gun pointed at your head, I dont think that would be what was on your mind...and even if it was, what could you do? Just because someone doesn't fight back, does that mean they dont deserve any help?
As for not caring about what happens when you're gone, this seems to be the view of most people in the world, but think what the world would be like if Churchill had said "Screw the french, i'll be dead in 10 years anyway, who cares?"

.

i do care what happens after i am dead for now, BUT after i am deas im incapable of careing because im dead, is it that hard to understand? the kids fighting back thing that i said WAS wrong, not much a kid can do, but adults can fight back if they choose to. so if they dont choose to fight back well what happens to them is their own fault imo. if i was a woman getting raped i would rather fight back and risk being killed than just laying there saying "go ahead and get it over with"...........

 

[Cactus]

Originally posted by lucifix
cactus what i meant by "after i die i wont give a ****" is that i will cease to exist hence i cant give a **** because i am DEAD. i hope the best for my son and his offspring.......i love him more than anything in this world. he is the ONLY reason i havent taken my own life.....yet.......

as far as that goes, i think you are appreciating the fact that life has things to offer, it's a grim view that your son is the only thing it has to offer, but as long as you have something i think there's hope.

bear with me, i'm going to go off on a rant because i've had a really bad night

i'm in the math/econ major. i plan to go into finance. my future is crap cuz the field is dying lately, cut-backs, etc. my courses suck, as of last night, i seriously wanted to kill myself. problem sets are a bitch, and no matter how hard i try the rest of hte class far surpasses my skills and if i have a C on my transcript then forget about getting a job at an investment bank...

however, i saw a sunset a few days ago, and i thought to myself, "if this was the last sunset the earth sees, it's fine because its beauty alone has graced the world." iot was amazing, the sky was cyan, and clows were streaks of bright pink, and the sun was this red, not orange, not yellow, beet red ball off to the horizon. it made me think that there was something beyond ourselves, beyond the immediate, hope for the rest of man, hope for the earth, hope to endure.

i think you see it too, in your son, you live forever in your children, it's your contribution to the world. the persistence to endure is the essence of the individual thing. and in one form or another, through hope, through dreams, through our young, we live on. that is the essence of individual being. and whatever form it takes, as long as it's there, that's an expectation for the future, that is the hope that drives, the tie that binds.

 

[Balton]

Originally posted by Cactus

however, i saw a sunset a few days ago, and i thought to myself, "if this was the last sunset the earth sees, it's fine because its beauty alone has graced the world." iot was amazing, the sky was cyan, and clows were streaks of bright pink, and the sun was this red, not orange, not yellow, beet red ball off to the horizon. it made me think that there was something beyond ourselves, beyond the immediate, hope for the rest of man, hope for the earth, hope to endure.

each morning when i wake up i can see from my bed trough the window the same sky. I am always argueing with myself now if i go to school or not. I always decide to go. Its so sad that I cant enjoy a day how i want it...

 

[Cat Fuzz]

Originally posted by lucifix
......... but as of now your bullshit pride is getting the best of you.......

and the pot calls the kettle black.

 

[lucifix]

Originally posted by Cat Fuzz




and the pot calls the kettle black.

shut up fuzz

 

[SpiritWalker]

Originally posted by Cactus
the people who i'm tired of are the one who bitch about AOL, yet still use it, bitch about microsoft, yet run windows on their computers, bitch about taxes, yet expect the government to pay for schools, magically out of nothing.

looks like somone is thinking... good job.. I do like the way you think sir...

 

[SpiritWalker]

Originally posted by lucifix
no im not saying that.for example some dumbass rapes a woman. if the woman simply lies down and spreads her legs without fighting back well she didnt do anything to stop it, see my point? i would understand if the guy was armed or somthing, but they are cases where the woman gives in simply out of fear.



that statment ALONE proves what kind of dumbass you really are
Seems like you are saying that if a person is tormented by a rapist without a weapon.. then it is HER fault...


and as for the hand chopping thing goes, i would have fit like hell if i knew they were going to chop my hands off, with an ak in my face or not. i think i was refering to people who let others bully/boss them around. im sure a little kid in that situation would have no idea what to do, so im sorry for being so cruel, BUT when it comes to adults we do have a decision.........

and the kids/helpless people are the ones that deserve help.. but you are saying that it just dosen't matter and that is was you are a toad..

 

[lucifix]

"that statment ALONE proves what kind of dumbass you really are
Seems like you are saying that if a person is tormented by a rapist without a weapon.. then it is HER fault... "

yes that is EXACTLY what i am saying. no it isnt her fault that it happened, but it is her fault if she didnt do anything to stop it.......

ya know what spirit? you can sit there hiding behind your little monitor and critisize me all you want but in the end you are just as bad if not WORSE than me...........

 

[Claw]

Originally posted by Cactus
point taken. i should clarify. my liberal use of the word "porn" is an oversimplification that is going to haunt me, so i'm going to try to explain it here. pornography, in of itself is fine. peep shows, fine too, strip bars, legitimate businesses. i think the best word to characterize really time square before the time square intitiative, is not "row of porn shops" but rather, "red light district" which has a different meaning in the US than in the rest of the world. in the US, it seems to include porn shops, etc. in the rest of the world however, red light district basically means prostitution, and such shady business.

It seems to me your clarification also clarified the source of the problems you have on the far side of the ocean. Throwing things together thaat don't have to belong together. These things are associated only because you associtae them, and therefore tend to accumulate in one place.
If prostitution wasn't a crime, it wouldn't attract so much shady business, too.

In Germany, we don't have such conglomerations usually 'cept those old-grown like (in)famous St. Pauli in Hamburg.
And by grantig legal rights to prostitution, it is also easier for the government to keep an eye on the ongoings , meaning it'S all cleaner and safer and all in all less "shady"

I also noted in the remainder of your posts you again combine my words with your thoughts which isn't appropriate since we were talking about different things all along.
You caught me with the monument though, 'cos what I wanted to say - but forgot due to my tired state - was that there are differend kinds of landmarks, monuments that we want to show what we are proud of, and "living landmarks" that show our life as is, not ideals, and that is what I meant.
And if that looks bad, there is propably a reaon for it, and I do not think you really solved the problem, you just shoved it aside.

Ya see, there is actually a bothrel very close to where I live, and my school too. At least it used to be there, I don't know really; but 13yrs old schoolboys tend to get to know such things and it was there all the time I went to school I knwo that.
Also, I meantioned the pornshops downtown, and there are quite a number of them in some places, acutally I know for sure 'cos that is also where all the PC shops are, close to the central station. Easily accessible for travellers I suppose
I do not feel, however, this is a bad area really.

What did I want to say? Oh, well. As you appear to be a reasonable person usually, you'll make something of it

 

[Cat Fuzz]

Taquitos

Originally posted by lucifix
shut up fuzz

Hey, I'm just happy to be on the OUTSIDE of this little gang beating.

 

[Claw]

Originally posted by lucifix
(...) but in the end you are just as bad if not WORSE than me...........

I don't see why.

Actually quite the opposite I believe, my p00r mislead friend. THere is many a thing I dislike about people, but the lack of willpower is not one of them. Quite the opposite, I feel constantly irritated by people claiming that whoever isn't capable of dealing with certain situations (by definition of speaker) deseves being stamped on; usually those are the people who do the actual stamping.

I am a socialist. Only I doubt humans won't spoil anything the way they are now, so it doesn't really matter.
And while many people think communism failed because it was the wrong idea, I am certain it is not the ideal but the people's failure to live up to it that ruined it, and capitalism didn't triumph either, it's more like a rotten building, standing but bound to crumble.
Many people believe capitalism has made us rich, but in many ways it has made us very poor indeed.

Damn, getting too philosophic for my own good...

 

[Claw]

Re: Taquitos

Originally posted by Cat Fuzz

Hey, I'm just happy to be on the OUTSIDE of this little gang beating.

Come get some

 

[SpiritWalker]

Originally posted by lucifix
ya know what spirit? you can sit there hiding behind your little monitor and critisize me all you want but in the end you are just as bad if not WORSE than me...........

how do you justify that statment???
I care about other people??.. when I said that I appalud when "bad" things happen to people that deserve it.. I was referring to people like murders, and the like.. I am totally in support of an electric BENCH.. that way we can get more people on it at once...I think that people like Suan Smith sould be drowned then revived and then drowned again... punshiment should fit the crime.. and I just happen to belive in stronger punishment.........