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All sounds nice but 1 thing remains to be fixed....

Discussion in 'Unreal Tournament 3' started by kafros, Apr 2, 2005.

  1. Israphel

    Israphel Sim senhor, efeitos especial

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    I get what you're saying Kafros and I think you're right.
    What it seems that you mean IS NOT that you want CS players to start playing UT - this won't ever happen as the games are so utterly different - but that you would like UT to have more players. That new players will take UT as their game of choice.

    I can't stand CS, and my first FPS online experiences were with MOH. I never bothered with UT until 2k4 because, like you pointed out, I got sick and tired of getting killed so fast and the learning curve being so steep...basically because of the sophistication of the weapons and the movement.

    Now I'm not saying that the game should be nerfed...I guess ALL UT players would say that one thing they love about UT is that very sophistication that makes the game so intimidating to new players. The sophistication is what gives the game it's rich depth and balance, it's playability and fun. Any significant nerfing of these would change the game too much and UT would lose something of its essence..the very thing that makes it UT.

    Making the game accessible to new players, while maintaining the soul of UT that keeps the hard-core types is an incredibly difficult balance to hit.

    I'm heartened by what I hear about Envy though, the reduction of the "bounciness" of the players will be one step towards making the game more about killing, rather than dodging...and this should make the game more accessible.
    The suggested tutorials are another good idea.

    I'm also interested to see how the proposed "skill matching" server finder will work...it COULD be a brilliant idea....but I guess it will be really difficultto successfully pull off..we'll see.

    But the best thing that Epic have done for newer players is the innovation of Onslaught. This levelled the playing fields and gave newer players (like myself) a way into the game. I'm glad to see ONS returning in the next UT game as it should maintain that player base (as the DM/TDM/CTF player bases should hopefully be retained as well), and hopefully Conquest can do what Onslaught did and bring in even more new players. In many cases, people who are brought into the game by Onslaught have eventually moved across and started playing DM or CTF

    I am constantly surprised (hadn't seen it much in BU until recently in the new Envy forum when some new people registered) at the snobbishness of some DM/CTF players in their attitude towards ONS. The constant referring to ONS players as n00bs, and ONS as a n00b game is very telling, and leads me to believe that there is a certain (very tiny) minority of people who resent new players in the game. This is sad, I wonder if such people don't actually want more people playing the game, or if they critisize ONS because it's a gametype where newer players can gey kills off more experienced players.
    UT shouldn't be an elite hard-core club...but by saying that I'm not saying that it should be nerfed to accomodate newer players.
    Experience and time spent playing the game SHOULD be rewarded, but at the same time, those players have to accept that ONS is an incredibly popular gametype and Epic have just as much duty to please ONS players as they do DM/CTF players.

    UT can never appeal to the CS players en masse (and this isn't what Kafros was saying) but I really hope it can increase it's populity and get a significantly wider player base. So much of what is good about this game comes from the community, and increasing the size of the community increases the possibility of getting the next Hourences or the next Soma into the community...and that can only be a good thing.

    EDIT: Great post Selerox :tup: It does sadden me the amount of elitism that we're seeing around this forum at the moment. When I said I hated CS it was nothing to do with the player, it's just not my kind of game.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2005
  2. Zur

    Zur surrealistic mad cow

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    Well, if my post is considered as elistist then you have it all wrong. To add what I was saying about spam, if this is emphasized too much what will happen is that it will become the dominant playing style on servers. That will be a shame because it's a mindless way to play a game and players won't be motivated to discover more intricate ways to handle situations. The bottom line is this : make the game too beginner friendly and you will render it shallow and devoid of any thinking.

    As for kafros' original post, I must say I misunderstood it. I'm all for some advanced tutorials. How about some players from BeyondUnreal get together and make some demos explaining various aspects of the game ? It could be called the Community Tutorial Pack or something :p .
     
  3. Nosnos

    Nosnos Nali

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    So all the bots do is jump? I thought mysterial worked on them for UT2004 to make it possible for them to do "all" the moves human players can do... he did it for UT2003 so why wouldnt it work for UT2004...
     
  4. Zur

    Zur surrealistic mad cow

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    The UT2004 bots do walljumps (usually in firefights to throw off aim) but they're still no comparison for live players. I have yet to see a bot that dodge-jumps from one floor to the other of rankin, do proper slide dodges or camp near the rocket launcher.
     
  5. Radiosity

    Radiosity Minty Fresh!

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    Mysterial was hired by epic to work on the bot code. He still works for them now. And yes, the bots do 'most' of the moves players can do, though some of the really advanced stuff still seems to be beyond them. They even impact jump with the shield at higher levels (masterful and up).

    edit: thanks Azura, beat me to the post by like 10 seconds ;)
     
  6. NeoNite

    NeoNite Worst hack fraud ever

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    Beyond the person who codes the bots, you mean?

    Because, it's merely A.I. ...
     
  7. Tournament0

    Tournament0 Guest

    What's to be fixed apart from all the problems?
     
  8. Razor_Shadow

    Razor_Shadow New Member

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    Couldnt have said it better.
     
  9. kafros

    kafros F1 manta tryouts

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    glad to see that I am not the only one (Israphel) that got back into online playing due to ONS.

    IMO ONS is even more demanding than the other game types since you have to master the vehicles in addition. But at least a new player could feel a bit usefull for his team (heal a node or a vehicle, man a turret, keep the skies clear with the AVRIL and get an easy kill or two).

    I hope they bring some kind of ranking (like the one advertised for Battlefield 2) so that more experienced players get a special position in the team to lead (provide a new interface so that more specific commands can be given, etc. )
     
  10. UnrealGrrl

    UnrealGrrl Enemy flag carrier is Her!

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    excellent idea... and i know how you feel.

    its not so much though that you even need to get the CS players playing UT, but game players playing UT again...

    Seleroxs idea about following up witha Very Good instructional demo of all gameplay aspects is critical to helping get more players in on the action too!

    if Epic goes in the direction they seem to be saying they will, then i think they are taking steps to do just that. entice old UT players back to the game, and get new players involved on a level we havent seen before...

    i really hope thats what happens and alot of these suggestions and ideas could help to those ends. :)
     
  11. Crion

    Crion New Member

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    I'd appreciate such a system.

    Here's my thoughts: Players can choose to have stats matter or not. No stats = free-for-all. Stats on and UT will filter out matches you would own at or get owned.
     
  12. CyMek

    CyMek Dead but not gone.

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    I like the idea of matching skill levels, but there is just sooo much that goes into determinig what makes a player good that it would be extremely difficult to balance it right. The other problem is when your not playing seriously. My stats truly do suck because I am prone to playing maps like Tricky and just stunting, or getting into protracted suicide matches with my friends, things like that.

    But if Epic can pull it off, it will truly own. Hardcore.
     
  13. Selerox

    Selerox COR AD COR LOQVITVR

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    Stats/Lobby

    The problem with the stats sytem in UT200x is that it's been, well, just a tad unstable. It has often ben down for months. Any stats system for UT3 needs to be able to handle it and adapt to changing player numbers/gametypes. A stats system is essential for any lobby system to work, so it has to be a main priority to get it set up right by the time the game shows up so that it's built in.

    One thing I'd like to see is no option to remove servers from the stats system. To keep all the players tracked, and to increase the likelyhood of funding players via the lobby systm. I'm also going to presume any lobby system will allow for filters for location. There might be the perfect game out there for me. But if it's on the other side of the planet, then it's not really what I'm looking for. That CTF game in Sydney might be great, but I'd prefer to stick to Europe if that's ok :)
     
  14. Mr.Magnetichead

    Mr.Magnetichead Banned

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    My point really went right over your head didn't it.
     
  15. Bot_40

    Bot_40 Go in drains

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    New players don't particularly want to spend 10 hours getting owned by bots just to learn simple basics like how to move and what each of the weapons do.

    A decent tutorial system would imo help a lot of people get into the game quickly and it certainly wouldn't take anything away from the game.
     
  16. fresh&minty

    fresh&minty lollerbater

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    Actually UT is VERY noob friendly compared to say quake (for frag skills) or tribes (for depth) it's one of the easiest "plug and play" games out there, and to top it off, it has ONS, the noobiest of noob'd up stuff to ever hit (and IG though that is less noobish).

    the problem is UT is a jack of all trades but a master of none. It's not the best DM game, it's not the best CTF game, and it's not the best massive shooter game. It's good at all those, but doesn't stand out as "roxors you boxors" in any one category. So you have a small community (game isn't that popular) split among a slew of choices, making things even smaller and creating pockets of elite, and casual players.

    In games dedicated to one thing (cs, quake, ET) you have a game that does one thing VERY well, and is devoted to that. So you get a large community, and a broad skill range. Making the game apealing to new players, and giving it the ability to stand the test of time (hell quake 3 has 3200 players online at a time, more than double 2k4, and CS just blows the lid off, and the learning curve on that game makes UT look like a sand box).

    IF the next UT is going to work, it's going to have to find a niche, and do it better than every other game... in that aspect it will self form a casual (read lots of pubs filled with pub noobs), and competitive (read locked clan servers for tournaments full of good players) community that will stand the test of time.

    As for CS, don't make me laugh. You can't draw CS players over. They don't play CS because of the gametypes, but because it's THE MOST COMPETITIVE FPS OUT. Untill EPIC is willing to accept B skins, hit sounds, and the slew of other competitive components and force the game into top events, it will never have the following CS does, nor the chance to steal those players.
     
  17. DeeperShade

    DeeperShade Banned

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    Every single one of your posts is knocking UT in someway. If you dislike it so much, why exactly are you here?
     
  18. fresh&minty

    fresh&minty lollerbater

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    I'm not antiUT, if I was I wouldn't play it

    However I do strongly feel that EPIC needs to get their priorities straight.

    I also think that UT players tend to be way to defensive and opt the "my game is to hard omg" which is complete BS as an explanation of it's problems, which is not only a lie, but doesn't help things. The first step is to get a grip, and accept that 1. the game is far from perfect, 2. offering up BS explanations for it's failure only makes things worse. Once you pass that you can go about how to fix things.

    I didn't knock UT once in that post, instead I simply pointed out some of the differences with it and other FPS games that are doing better, in the hopes of illustrating why they are doing better (ie why does quake3 have a larger DM community than UT). Just because the truth hurts, doesn't make it false.

    So yes, I posted a slew of facts that might reflect negatively on a game (that I love and play) since the thread was about fixing UT, and drawing new players. I posted why it hasn't, and why it won't, and you got upset because your communities mass response of "omg it's just to hard" is bullox.

    you got served
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2005
  19. FireCrack

    FireCrack New Member

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    CS if anything has a very shallow learning curve.
     
  20. fresh&minty

    fresh&minty lollerbater

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    you could argue that learning curve is partly based on the skill set of your community, which in CS (the top comp fps in the world) can be rather high.
     

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