Cliff Bleszinski Responds To Critics

[Severin]

Originally Posted by evilmrfrank
I can't say anything about Epic and honestly neither can anyone else here. ...

Excellent point. There are two kinds of forum fauna from my perspective. Those who look at a confidential hyper-complicated effort involving scores of people, organizations and partners and state "I know EXACTLY what went on every step of the way" and those who look at the same effort and say "Wow, I have NO idea what went on every step of the way". Some on BUF have a distinct tendancy towards to former.

@WarTourist

You absolutely have the right not to disclose what is going on behind the scenes for all sorts of reasons. Though it is one thing to not disclose information and another thing entirely to disclose misleading information such as the now infamous 'bread and butter' quote. A bit more honesty and many people would have either got over it by now or understood from the start. People can only base their opinions on what information they have to hand, i.e what you have told them verses what they can see for them selves.

 

[MonsOlympus]

Don't really agree. There shouldn't be multiple systems for digital distribution, there shouldn't be a single digital distributor either.
There should be multiple digital distributes using a single system. Much like a gaming oriented subsection of the world wide web.
There should not be a single entity that has control over that network.
But this is kinda off topic for this thread.

I can dig it though, not a bad idea! Kinda goes to the way PC and the internet work rather nicely

We could really use a solid, as you put it, subsection for gaming and lets not rule out the possibility of consoles being part of that (for crossplatform as always ). The problem with consoles is 1 entity does essentially have control even if they would have you believe their subsidiaries operate somewhat independent.

Perhaps what we need on PC is an oversight comitee, maybe PCGA can take that role, someone who is ready to form standards and put them out there for people to use (much like the w3c). It might all sound alittle utopian but if developers can band together along side publishers to fight piracy I think making gaming a better, fun and easy to use place for "all gamers" is well worth a shot.

I guess in one way we have something similar with browser based games already, its just there is still a mess of formats no matter what platform you look at it from. Atleast then everyone can contribute to some kind of standard and there certainly are standards for gaming out there.

In the end I guess it is easier to force the masses to a your standard than to try and create something that's good for everyone. That doesnt make it better but I do believe than in more open standards developers get more choice in what they can and cant do. It will limit consumer choice in that the services they chose will be tied to this standard but its much more open, as I said like the PC platform.

The problem will be with adoption much like it is with browsers and those standards, if developers are willing to put alittle time and effort into bringing past and future games inline I think they'll be pleasantly surprised with the support. Console adoption of such a standard is going to be the major hurdle as with any closed box system, I dont understand it myself but I would like a future where 1 box can do so much more and still make people who run these services plenty of money. It'd make the life of a consumer so much easier, not to mention they would have alot more money to lay down

 

[Kantham]

Wartourist!

If you're still following this thread then please hear me out on this, understanding that I'm not just speaking for myself here!

*Huge list*

You're on his ignore list, join the club!

 

[WarTourist]

Though it is one thing to not disclose information and another thing entirely to disclose misleading information such as the now infamous 'bread and butter' quote.

UT3 was first and foremost a PC game. Clearly there are those on this forum who for whatever reason refuse to believe this, but I've long since given up trying to persuade them .

 

[cooloola]

A reminder to those that say PC gaming brings in less money http://kotaku.com/5038833/pc-gaming-a-107-billion-industry
And also remember that STALKER that was devloped by a relativily new and nameless dev sold more than 2million.
Devs need to realize that most PC gamers aren't really looking for a brainless (and by brainless i mean non thought provoking) shooter like Gears and UT even though they could be wicked fun. PC gamers have been here for a lot longer than console gamers so they've matured and so they demand more mature games. And by mature i don't mean more gore, tits, and poopoo language I mean games that take themselves seriously. A prime example of that would be max payne (that acording to mr.internet sold around 1.9 million copies in the US alone and it seems max payne 1 & 2 sold around 7 million copies), it was a brilliant game that it took itself more seriously than any game before that, and I believe it did take some major steps towards being art, but i won't elaborate on that because it's irrelevant.
Maybe it's time for Epic to wake up and notice that the average PC gamer isn't what he used to be and that gaming is rapidly progressing from simple entertainment to and actual art form. But seeing the way most Epic staff act in interviews (and I mean throwing around the word bad ass every 10 seconds) that seems highly unlikely. And I mean absolutely no offense to any of epic's staff they are all brilliant at what they do but they need to realize that. What about about Empathy? You know that game concept Cliff Bleszinski came up with at the GDC 2007. I am aware that was just some sort of a joke, but if it were to be made I would much rather play that game than Gears of War 2. And it'd probably be considered by many as revolutionary if done correctly. And I'm pretty certain there are many gamers that agree with me.
Also I'm not trying to convince anyone at epic of anything, but I'd just like to know if anyone at epic (Jeff Morris) could tell me if they are ever planning to do anything close to what I talked about above.

 

[Grobut]

You're on his ignore list, join the club!

We should start an "Ignored by WT" social group, it'd be the biggest group on the forum!

 

[fuegerstef]

PC gamers have been here for a lot longer than console gamers so they've matured and so they demand more mature games.

Well, I started gaming in 1978... ...on a console. Have PCs or computers that were able play games been around then?

 

[WarTourist]

Maybe it's time for Epic to wake up and notice that the average PC gamer isn't what he used to be and that gaming is rapidly progressing from simple entertainment to and actual art form.

Given the choice between playing a brainless big-budget action game (aka high chance of commercial success) or an interesting and innovative indy (low chance of commercial success), I'll choose the indy. Given the same choice, but as a developer, I'll choose big-budget every time .

We should start an "Ignored by WT" social group

An alternative of course is to make your case without insults and personal attacks (not you necessarily...).

 

[Severin]

Well, I started gaming in 1978... ...on a console. Have PCs or computers that were able play games been around then?

Apple II. but yes I agree its not a good point.

 

[Mozi]

Just throwing it out there... common sense I guess... and being as general as possible.. and speaking as game developer..

No offense to anyone, but it's a lot easier to rant about what game dev houses do or don't do, being outside of the game industry... working in it you see the business end of things, working with management and producers which gives a good insight to how cut throat the competition really is from other devs doing what you do or on the same platforms you work on...

Each dev house works differently and has a different strategy for their business to succeed and keep a foothold in the industry.

The studio I work at has it's own strategy, and there at times where I don't like some decisions as developer (not consumer) but I then one needs to think what's best for the business, following market trends and changes to best suit our current title(s) or just do what we want to do with out concern of the market conditions.... and hope for the best?

More often not the best profitability for any dev house is obliviously to follow market trends, and maximize an install base of a given platform be it PC, console or handheld, for the product they are making.

As consumers we can rant, and should better than holding back and being disgruntled, but at the end of the day one needs to understand that rants can't shift business practices of a developer. Any dev house needs to do what they feel suits their business model best to keep a float in a very competitive industry...

 

[Severin]

UT3 was first and foremost a PC game. Clearly there are those on this forum who for whatever reason refuse to believe this, but I've long since given up trying to persuade them .

The conversation was in relation to UT3 but the statement was regarding epics commitment to the Pc more generally as I remember it. My memory is not perfect so if that was not the case then ok fair enough.

 

[Entr0p1cLqd]

...NPD numbers cost roughly 50k a month and posting those would be considered piracy. And I'm not trying to convince you of anything TBH. I'm simply stating the reasoning of many developers about why PC retail is drying up....

Which is all well and good, but as far as I know NPD figures only cover North America Retail sales.

Have you every tried (without having insider information) to find out how many actual copies of a PC game was sold across the entire world? It's very very tough. But when you do the same sort of searches for console games, with a bit of digging you can get a pretty good picture of what's going on.

I do wonder sometimes whether the complete lack of information available is simply all part of a conspiracy to make sure that the sales figures for PC games are impossible to get hold of to allow everyone to claim it is dying.

I haven't bought a PC game from a retail store since the release of UT (the first one); with the exception of UT2K3 because I couldn't get the special edition on-line.

I currently have £120 worth of PC games on pre-order. From a well known on-line retailer. The few PC gamers I know in real life don't buy games from retail stores either.

Valve are releasing Left 4 Dead on the 21st of November. On the same day, GTA-IV is also released for the PC. It's doubtful whether we'll ever see any meaningful sales stats from either AAA title.

 

[MonsOlympus]

JNo offense to anyone, but it's a lot easier to rant about what game dev houses do or don't do, being outside of the game industry... working in it you see the business end of things, working with management and producers which gives a good insight to how cut throat the competition really is from other devs doing what you do or on the same platforms you work on...

Oh I agree fully, the thing of it is I believe some of us have unique views on the industry because we havent been in it. Everyone can see how developers change as they get deeper into the whole cut throat world of it all, thats not always a bad thing but it does make you wonder if some of them have forgotten where they came from.

Wartourist as an eg can speak as both a developer and a gamer, which I respect, unfortunately being a developer means sometimes you have to state which perspective you are using in advance so people dont get the wrong idea.

I just think perhaps the industry is getting too much into a groove and following trends too closely (which is leading to a steady decline in game sales), theres certainly trend setters out there and it is risky but I think theres room for more. There needs to be more people challenging the authority, mis/pre-conceptions and not just giving in because the $'s are there

 

[cooloola]

Given the choice between playing a brainless big-budget action game (aka high chance of commercial success) or an interesting and innovative indy (low chance of commercial success), I'll choose the indy. Given the same choice, but as a developer, I'll choose big-budget every time .

I'm not saying indy, Bioshock was big budget but yet it wasn't a brainless shooter. Max Payne 1 & 2 weren't brainless shooters yet together they sold about 7million copies. And if you're worried you would scare away the casual gamer you can go the Bioshock route and make the brainy stuff shippable. I'm not talking about drastic changes in gameplay, though that would still be cool. Try getting the player emotionally involved and no I don't count as the Dom looking for his wife side story because that's about as emotionally involved as a Van Dam movie. Or getting the player to think. Half-Life as a series is pretty progressive in every game they integrate the story and gameplay more closely and yet they don't make drastic changes in the basic formula.
I hope I'm being clear, I tend to have a pretty messy way of thinking and that inevitably affects my posts.

 

[WarTourist]

Have you every tried (without having insider information) to find out how many actual copies of a PC game was sold across the entire world? It's very very tough.

If not impossible. The only true number is what the publisher is paying you on for royalties, which of course you only know for your own titles.

Nevertheless, the PC sector of retail is actually pretty easily quanitified, and that's where the huge drop is occuring: total dollars spent at retail on PC. And again, this isn't to say PC gaming is dying, just that retail is in sharp decline.

 

[DorDuke82]

If not impossible. The only true number is what the publisher is paying you on for royalties, which of course you only know for your own titles.

Nevertheless, the PC sector of retail is actually pretty easily quanitified, and that's where the huge drop is occuring: total dollars spent at retail on PC. And again, this isn't to say PC gaming is dying, just that retail is in sharp decline.

I wont argue that there is a big drop in Retail PC Sales - but what about online Sales through Online Retailers like Amazon, Play.com etc. and especially Digital Distribution Models like Steam, Impulse, Direct2Drive?
As much as i dont think anybody can argue about the decline in Retail Sales i do think anybody can argue about the boost online distribution models are taking in the last years.

Perfect examples would be Audiosurf, wich is only available through Steam, but, according to Gabe Newell, made Dylan Fitterer a Millionaire.
Or take Sins of a solar Empire wich sold, according to Stardock, 100,000 copies through Impulse for 400,000 (or 500,000 dont know exactly) Retail Sales - wich is pretty good, considering Impulse wasnt available at Sins Release Date and that it is a "new player" in online distribution models.
As a side note - Sins of a solar Empire did have good sales for its genre without having copy protection schemes comparable to other new games and the fact that it was only sold in the US for quite some time (i imported my version to germany and made use of everything stardock has to offer, because i could download it from them before my retail copy arrived over here).

 

[elmuerte]

Apple II

There were games for an Apple computer

(sorry, couldn't resist)

 

[Thanatos]

UT3 was first and foremost a PC game. Clearly there are those on this forum who for whatever reason refuse to believe this, but I've long since given up trying to persuade them .

This is a quote from the UT3 post mortem on Gamespot:

One of the biggest problems with UT3, said Morris, was the game's user interface. Originally the UI design was driven by an artistic aesthetic. Though the UI had an appealing look and would have worked well on consoles, the team decided that it would have been nightmarish to navigate the menus on a PC. Consequently, the team did a last-minute reboot to implement a system that worked better on PCs, which didn't allow for enough time for iteration and polish.

Those two comments from you contradict themselves if UT3 was a PC game first why was the menu designed for consoles first and then at the last minute changed for a 'PC' friendly version?

Frankly the 'PC' version still looks like a console menu in my opinion it's almost the same as the menu system for Unreal Championship 2 which was a console game.

I still think Epic Games (you guys) had the right idea with the original UT which was designed for the PC then ported/remade for the consoles, instead you tried to develop the same version of the game for every system at the same time which has lead to a game which was underdeveloped, unfinished and universally seen as average.

 

[G.Lecter]

if UT3 was a PC game first why was the menu designed for consoles first and then at the last minute changed for a 'PC' friendly version?

Development of UT3 started with PC as a focus, but the Epic guys felt that they were investing too much resources into the game and they felt obliged to move it to the dark side. It could be said that the name change from UT2007 to UT3 symbolizes the game's corruption... Everything made after the name change is consolized and crap, but fortunately the gameplay (great IMO) was made before that... so yes, it could be said that it's still somehow a PC game, in spite of not being on par with previous UT titles...

 

[alex904]

There were games for an Apple computer

(sorry, couldn't resist)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Apple_II_games