CliffyB Talks Game Development

[MonsOlympus]

If its fixed in an upcoming patch I think its all good myself, sure its a bug, its been fixed, people will be playing without that bug shortly. We know its a proccess and sometimes takes time, annoying as hell bug by the sounds of it though

Yeah actually I had some dude bitching to me about a cracked game crashing on him, couldnt help but laugh at that one. Its hard to have sympathy for people who are complaining if they didnt lay down their hard earned cash, just makes the rest of us look bad

Sure the bug could be in the game but it coulda been because of the hack'n'slash in the exe as well.

 

[Forgetful]

Anuban I glanced at your reply and decided not to read it as, and I quote its "my opinion". Your welcome to protest it, but you should know that in doing so your productivity level falls between giving real estate management guides to the homeless and canvasing for the coniferous forest in Tahiti.

 

[Unknown Target]

AAA titles are generally denoted by the massive amount of money invested in developing them, the large amount of hype they get, and the fact that they're generally considered to be at the forefront of their genre.

 

[MonsOlympus]

Yeah thats what I thought sounds like this A rating system isnt really on par with how good a game might be. Sure you could assume more money equals better game but thats not always the case, hype can certainly sell a sub-par game on its own.

If a game can sell well with a low budget for both development/production and for marketing thatd put it above AAA would it not? Then again theres a few diamonds in the rough as there usually is, its not long before someone picks it up though.

 

[Wunderbar_007]

Why so much negativity you guys!? Why can't people just enjoy what we have and not worry about what some guy somewhere said? I think it's a great time to be PC gamer and I never even had a console past SNES.

I for one am happy just to have UT3! It's very fun and as addictive as the first game. HUGE patches are coming out and map packs will follow I'm sure
As for PC being second to them? who cares? They already mentioned Unreal 3coming eventually and I'm positive that Gears 2 will be a PC title too. And what's with all the complaining about Gears 1? I wasn't blown away by it but it has never crashed on me or anything, smooth all the way through. Many complain without even bothering to look at their own hardware (I would know, I used to do that).

As for PC in general, cmon guys, be more optimistic! Unreal 3 was mentioned, Deus Ex 3 was announced, Another Sup Com expansion coming, Mass Effect for PC, Red Alert 3, Starcraft 2, some new tribes game, Farcry2, and many many more! Even IF Epic completely forgets about PC (not before Unreal 3 pls), there are many other titles to look forward to so cmon, lighten up Now I'm just waiting for Condemned 2 to come to PC, AVP3 and Giants 2.

 

[Maximus2003]

If one thing is obvious from this thread it is that PC gamers, especially UT fans are very very serious about their game. Unlike most I quite enjoy UT3 and it proved to be the most fun we had at a recent LAN. I'm starting to think that it has a lot more LAN potential than online potential so I'll keep playing it. However, if this is the way Epic is going, I'll also spend my money elsewhere in the future instead. Screw them, I've been faithfull to them for 9 years now. Time has come to move on...

 

[Poker]

And FWIW all UT3 SKUs totaled has outsold UT2004 by a fairly large margin worldwide. It's not an apples to apples comparison since UT2004 didn't have a console version, but considering half the SKUs haven't shipped yet (PS3 Euro/360), there's the definitely possibility it will be the best selling UT title in the franchise’s history.

That's good news for Epic's bottom line. Seriously, congrats. But let's be honest, if porting UT3 to PS3 and 360 and expanding the potential user base by a whole order of magnitude didn't result in it being "the best selling UT title in the franchise's history", well, I think we'd have to classify that as a major disappointment.

The bad news so far is being heaped on the communities that are built on—and themselves build—UT for the PC. Is it going too far to infer from the above statement that, as long as sales on console buoy up the overall revenues, Epic doesn't have a real problem if there is only enough traffic on PC to fill a handful of servers?

My crystal ball may not work too well, but from the looks of things so far, we PC-based UTers haven't much reason to expect a terribly vibrant or populated community one or two years down the road. That sparse traffic today could easily be linked to a dearth of modded content, compared to what we're used to with past UT titles, being produced tomorrow.

 

[Chandler]

I think a general problem is that everyone ehre is talking about PC games always being shooters. Right now the market is saturated with them, and this is no different than the consoles mind you. It's ridiculous. And don't get me wrong I love destroying things from a First (or third. <3 mass effect) person point of view. But sometimes I need a break.

In a few years, I really see a decline of shooters, and hopefully, an increase of games in other genres, such as RTS, and (this is very wishful thinking on my part) puzzle games.

Maybe it's because PC gamers (and console gamers) today are too stupid figure out complex puzzles. Hey with the Internet, who needs to figure things out right? Not to say anyone here is stupid, I'm just saying on a whole the market is full of idiots, and some of them even work in the ****ing industry.

And on CliffyB's comment.

Right now, there are a ****ton of Indie Develoeprs out there who don't care how much their game sells. They just want it to SELL.

When he says People he means executives who care more about money than making a solid game that increases a fanbase which you could then leech off of in future games. How many people do you think would NOT buy a game if names like "Richard Garriot's Tabula Rasa" was just named Tabula Rasa. People keep calling Spore "William Wright's Spore". Honestly if Will Wright had nothing to do with Spore I wouldn't give a DAMN what they were doing.

And don't get me wrong, there are some GREAT web based games out there, like Off-road Velociraptor Safari, by Flashbang Studios. And there are always going to be MMO's, but to call the PC gaming dead? They've been doing that forever.

It just seems more likely now because two PC games didn't do well in sales.


Maybe I'm ranting but not making sense anymore I don't know. My thoughts have no coherent flow or process to them.

 

[WarTourist]

Is it going too far to infer from the above statement that, as long as sales on console buoy up the overall revenues, Epic doesn't have a real problem if there is only enough traffic on PC to fill a handful of servers?

I'm not sure I follow. We want a healthy community on all the platforms we support. As game creators we want as many people playing our games as possible.

 

[badvermin]

Uhhh ... I think you are forgetting how well CoD4, BioShock, and the Orange Box have done on the PC.

No, he isn't, that's the point.

Those games did NOT light up the charts with their sales numbers, particularly when compared to the console versions.

The console versions sold 10x better. Think sales of several million compared to a couple hundred thousand.

 

[-Entropy-]

<warning, long developer rant>

A good point to bring up here, amidst all the raging emotion, is that Cliff's comemnts have been taken completely out of context. He says "So for me, the PC is kind of the secondary part ..." Not only is he talking about his own opinion, but he's doing so from the point of view of the lead designer on Gears, a console focused game. If his head where anywhere else, then I'd really be worried.

You can talk about CoD and Orange Box all you want, but the fact still remains that their console sales are on the order of 10 times their current PC sales. And their PC fans are just as up in arms as ours. This is not a phenominon centralized around Epic or Unreal.

Yes the UT3 UI needs work; yes, we're working on it; and by god, yes you've managed to remember to mention it on occasion. But I'd agree with Brizz that UT3 is about the most fun I've had in the series yet, that the gameplay is really solid. And as for the "consolization" of the game, thats a total B.S. statement -- it doesn't even mean anything, its just a buzz word that you use to tell me that your favorite feature was not included, or that you're unhappy with a design decision we made. We love feedback, and we totaly want to fix as many issues as we can, but saying something meaningless like "the game is consolized" doesn't help anyone because it doesn't mean anything. The truth is that UT was ported from PC to console, not the other way around, despite what you may have been led to believe. PC was our lead sku for a reason, and the game is 100% PC at its core. As has been pointed out in the past, UT2003/4 was in fact console ported to PC, so maybe you're saying you DO want a more console focused game? I'm being facetious, of course, but please get your facts straight.

For those who are totally confused about the point: the AAA designation basically measures how much funding a title has in development, it is not a measure of quality or sales figures (although obviously, those factors are all closely tied).

Lastly, I'm not 100% on my figures, but UT3 sales are completely on par with past titles, if not better (as Wartourist mentioned previously). And the petty whining was just as bad with UT and UT2003 and UT2004 as it has been with UT3, and subsequent patches addressed just as major and just as many issues -- the difference is several years of retrospect on past titles while UT3 is still fresh on people's minds.

Flame on, brethren.

 

[Anuban]

No, he isn't, that's the point.

Those games did NOT light up the charts with their sales numbers, particularly when compared to the console versions.

The console versions sold 10x better. Think sales of several million compared to a couple hundred thousand.

I don't know where you are getting your inaccurate figures from but every game I named DID light up the charts and was in the top ten ... you may want to check your facts next time. Also these PC games sold in the millions worldwide not 200K ... man you sure don't have your facts straight to come in here and say No, he isn't that's the point. And no one said the consoles didn't have more overall sales ... we all know that considering the installed base of consoles vs PCs that can run the latest First and third person shooter games but the numbers are not 10x better in the cases of the games I am talking about.

 

[Anuban]

You can talk about CoD and Orange Box all you want, but the fact still remains that their console sales are on the order of 10 times their current PC sales. And their PC fans are just as up in arms as ours. This is not a phenominon centralized around Epic or Unreal.

I don't know for sure about the rest of what you said but you are off base about this ... all of it. No their console games have not sold 10x as many copies as their PC versions maybe 5 times sure ... but nope not 10 ... both games have broken a million copies on the PC side ... and these games have not sold 10 million console copies each ... sorry but you'd have to show me numbers that show otherwise.

Also Valve fans are no where near as unhappy as UT PC gamers are and they don't have a reason to be. Their UI wasn't screwed up ... they can use FSAA and tweak tons of settings (I know ... I have EP2 and I am very happy with it) and the game is not filled with tons of bugs. Also the game is far more stable and plays better on a wider variety of machines ... so you could never convince me of that statement.

 

[WarTourist]

No their console games have not sold 10x as many copies as their PC versions maybe 5 times sure.

Hi Anuban. Actually it's undeniable. I can't give npd numbers out, but for instance COD4 sold 1.4m in december alone on the 360 in the US (googleable) and looking at the numbers the PC version is almost exactly 1/10th that, including collectors editions. Throw in the PS3 numbers and I think the ratio spreads even more.

Honorable men can disagree, but unless you've got the hard numbers from retail in front of you, I have to agree with entropy and badvermin.

 

[RoadKillGrill]

Both of you... Id love to see where you are getting your numbers.

95% of ppl at BU love pink underwear according to a recent poll.

 

[badvermin]

I don't know where you are getting your inaccurate figures from but every game I named DID light up the charts and was in the top ten ... you may want to check your facts next time. Also these PC games sold in the millions worldwide not 200K ... man you sure don't have your facts straight to come in here and say No, he isn't that's the point. And no one said the consoles didn't have more overall sales ... we all know that considering the installed base of consoles vs PCs that can run the latest First and third person shooter games but the numbers are not 10x better in the cases of the games I am talking about.

I'm getting my numbers from the company I work for, who published a game on your list. I have the actual LTD world wide sales numbers for every game we publish, and the console side literally sold 10x more than the PC. If I could post the actual numbers without risking my job, I would.

And being in the top 10 charts on the PC side doesn't mean you are selling many units since the whole PC market is down. {edit} For example, the number one game in August only sold 77k units.

 

[Sir_Brizz]

I don't know for sure about the rest of what you said but you are off base about this ... all of it. No their console games have not sold 10x as many copies as their PC versions maybe 5 times sure ... but nope not 10 ... both games have broken a million copies on the PC side ... and these games have not sold 10 million console copies each ... sorry but you'd have to show me numbers that show otherwise.

How the heck would you even know that? I wouldn't be surprised if CoD4 PC sold 200,000 copies and CoD4 360 sold 2 million. It may not be that dramatic in reality, but it's still a dramatic difference (which is the point) even at your 5x number

Also Valve fans are no where near as unhappy as UT PC gamers are and they don't have a reason to be. Their UI wasn't screwed up ... they can use FSAA and tweak tons of settings (I know ... I have EP2 and I am very happy with it) and the game is not filled with tons of bugs. Also the game is far more stable and plays better on a wider variety of machines ... so you could never convince me of that statement.

They are also using a DX8 with DX9 features engine. Source is great, I can't deny that because I like how it looks and Ep2 was done really well. But people have been whining about HL2 for ages as well for a variety of reasons. You simply can't please everyone.

If I was active in the CoD4 community, I'd probably be whining about various things over there. From that standpoint, I can understand the people whining here. But it does get to be too much.

 

[Anuban]

Lastly, I'm not 100% on my figures, but UT3 sales are completely on par with past titles, if not better (as Wartourist mentioned previously). And the petty whining was just as bad with UT and UT2003 and UT2004 as it has been with UT3, and subsequent patches addressed just as major and just as many issues -- the difference is several years of retrospect on past titles while UT3 is still fresh on people's minds.

Flame on, brethren.

wait a minute I know you are on the development team and all and you have to stick up for your game and all but that is just that not true ... no way it is true on the PC side ... UT2K4 sold tons of copies and did so on the strength of across the board 90s from reviewers so I'm not going to believe that UT3 for the PC has sold anywhere near the number of copies UT2K4 has ... you'd have to show me those numbers.

Also I was there from the start when UT2k4 came out and again there was not nearly this much dissatisfaction with the overall product. Even UT2K3 was received better than UT3 is being received. And I am sorry you have to constantly hear about how bad the UI is (I stopped talking about it long ago on the Epic boards) but considering how horrid it is when compared to the previous three versions (especially the UT2k3 UI which was perfect for the PC) I don't think you can blame folks ... remember there are new buyers of the game everyday that can't believe it and who can blame them based on what you delivered in the past. Sometimes I still shake my head when I start up the game and then go downstairs and start it up on my PS3 and go into the menus ... so yeah I know you folks are working on it and I hope to goodness it comes out well in the end but until that time I don't know how you can expect people to be completely silent on the matter. It is just too drastic of a change and totally not in keeping with current (and really even past) trends in terms of UIs for advanced PC games. Even Gears of War has a much different UI in terms of the submenu settings ... stuff like AA and options for textures, etc. so you have to keep that in mind.

 

[Anuban]

I'm getting my numbers from the company I work for, who published a game on your list. I have the actual LTD world wide sales numbers for every game we publish, and the console side literally sold 10x more than the PC. If I could post the actual numbers without risking my job, I would.

And being in the top 10 charts on the PC side doesn't mean you are selling many units since the whole PC market is down.

Sorry man .. I'm not buying that excuse at all. You don't even say what title .. ohhh so I may be off somewhat about one title ... please man ... you'll have to do better than that.

The NPD released the numbers recently and they don't support what you are saying.

 

[MonsOlympus]

You rekon Halo3 alone sold xbox 360's or you rekon bioshock, mass effect, gears of war, stranglehold etc had something to do with that as well? Granted you can get those on PC but timeframe might be a factor to consider for some of these titles.

But hey, who knows! Maybe consoles are just it now and Im not getting the whole deal. It would be nice to see Cliffyb with a mouse in his hands once in awhile though, then again hey PS3 has those as well. When I saw alittle interview with him and Gears on PC he still had a gamepad in his hands. This isnt a first person game so I dont really blame him for opting for a gamepad, I got one for PC myself for racing games and fighting games.

I guess its good console gamers didnt get stuck with a free copy of HL2 like us PC peeps, we cant even sell games anymore we are giving them away. Huzzah

I just find it alittle bit of a shame that the front page of beyondunreal has alot of console only news, sure it gets its fair share of PC news as well but theres alot of "try this demo on live!" followed by a sigh from me. Mass Effect to PC is really good news though, Im really happy that PC isnt getting completely left out thats my only hope for the future is that developers keep supporting it even if the sales arnt on par with the consoles. Times could change and I guess youd want to be ready for that, like whos to say xbox 3 will be backwards compatible

So yups, bring on Gears 2 for PC I just dont hope I have to choose between Unreal 3 and Gears 2 on PC like I did between Gears and UT3 I will be picking Gears up soon enough though. Isnt there a movie somewhere in there? Apparently Halo 3 did better than Spiderman 3 so ummz yeah maybe movies arnt where its at, perhaps TV is the console of the Movie biz and cinema is like the PC