CliffyB Talks Game Development

[ConceptBoz]

Business decisions are business decisions - i understand that. I don't like the way that Epic has more or less hidden away from their customers recently about UT3/GoW problems and then we hear how its PC gamers fault and PC gaming is in disarray...

I just wonder how GoW would of turned out if Epic had to face making/releasing a console game like the majority of developers with out microsoft throwing money/god knows what else at them.

Personally i can't wait to see console gaming as a whole reacts to this. Its growing in structure and people still seems to think anyone who plays consoles have no idea about gaming and just buys the best looking games/advertisements - many do, but this should show how grown up the community has grown.

 

[JaFO]

Crytek and Valve are basically it for us PC shooter fans now

So we get to chose between an unplayable game that requires a monster-pc or the n-th version of Half-life in episodic form once every few years ... hmm
If that were the case we should put the genre out of its misery and end its life.

Too bad that you're forgetting the Russians (IL2-Sturmovik, Stalker, The Witcher for example).
Then there's the fact that unlike the golden mod-era there now are several free & cheap engines available that have been used successfully ( http://www.garagegames.com/ ).
So it's not like we are completely dependent on the likes of Epic, Valve and Id-software to provide us with tools.

Never mind that given the enormous number of ports and tweaked versions of existing maps I think scrapping the likes of UnrealEd in favour of Forge is not a bad idea at all.
It may suck for the few 'traditional' mappers & mod-teams, but in reality users have lost interest in user-made custom-content already and they're more likely to have fun with something they can actually use and share amongst friends (which given the complexity of todays' tools is understandable).

 

[BOiNG]

Oh, and hello new troll/flame thread.

Oh please, get a grip.
No ones really flaming yet and are you surprised that PC users who are read that the company they've been supporting for years has labeled them "secondary"? Were you maybe expecting everyone to be joyous about that fact and start praising Epic for that attitude?

Or is it maybe a little bit of a pinch to you that other forum users already called the fact that Epic is acting like they only just about care about the PC users and now it's pretty much out in the open?

It can hardly be denied now that Epic obviously put more effort and resources into the console version than they did into the PC version.

Seems to me like you label every thread a troll/flame thread which doesn't adhere to your opinion.
What is it you're actually trying so hard to defend here? I'm not seeing it myself.

 

[os][ris]

so it's official. PC comes second to consoles. That explains A LOT.

thank you for admitting it cliff. Now the rest of ur company can stop pretending like they give a **** about pc gaming.

 

[Anuban]

@JaFO - You are right ... I forgot about the Russians .. definitely Stalker, Hellgate, The Witcher, and even Project Origin (from the devs that created F.E.A.R.) now these folks are also dedicated to pushing tech as far as they can and giving PC users a great gaming experience. But still none of these games have the impact of UT and that is what is still disappointing about Epic going in the other direction but in terms of business if your goal is to be huge then you just cannot ignore the large installed user base of consoles. Over 15 million consoles are in households capable of running next gen games based on the UE3 engine. This is just not a market you can ignore ... especially given how easily it is to sell to the console gamer market if your game is a solid title.

 

[Forgetful]

I'd have to agree with whoever said that Cliffy B was bitter. I don't, however, know if I could condemn him for feeling so. They poured everything they had into UT3, and in my opinion it is a wicked game. The PC community basically gave them the finger and there were no sales. They did the same with wars on console and everyone ate it up because they had been waiting for a title of that quality for quite some time.

We (PC users) - and again this is MY opinion - are ungrateful. There is no reason copies of UT3 should not be flying of the shelves. I play with a prominent community that echoes back from Unreal on the days of Heat.net and I realize that the competitive angle wasn't there right away. The bugs are gone now though, and there has been no response.

CAL (Cyberathletes Amateur League) has a meager 1 vs 1 category for the game because there just isn't enough community interest. Don't expect to see Unreal Tournament 4 anytime soon. From a business cents point of view its a complete waste of time.

Epic games will get more acclaim and attention if they take console games with huge install bases like Gears of War and push the competitive aspect (Much like Microsoft did with Halo). UT3 is certainly not going to contribute to the idea of a "pro gamer" because of its weak performance. The "pro" community is established, but has a very weak pulse. It's there and its getting stronger, but still just a blip on the radar when you look at both sales numbers and competitive gaming.

Sadness, pure sadness

 

[kafros]

Somebody get the lights on the way out.

nice!

Does anyone know the sales numbers for the following?
1. Orange box
2. Crysis
3. Bioshock

 

[Sir_Brizz]

Thing is, if Cliffy is bitter about the PC, then it's because of UT200X. And as the lead designer on those projects, he has no one to blame for their reception but himself. UT3 (in a lot of ways, I'm being very general about this so please don't take it the wrong way) is kind of like Unreal 1 in the sense that they were trying something else with a different team and a different lead designer. If it's really true, then the next game is where we are bound to see awesomeness. Don't forget that Epic's past PC releases have shown that they usually have a subpar first game release and an incredible second game release on the engine. Let's just hope they feel like supporting the PC community to there.

 

[MonsOlympus]

You know having someone say a title is AAA and actually having a AAA title is two different things! What exactly determines this anyways? is AAA a title which sells well or is it a title you as a developer knows they poured their heart and soul into and its done well enough to be proud?

Hell theres been b-grade movies Id put above these so called "AAA" titles because they have alot more of a soul so to speak.

In the end I think this comes down to moving units, "making marketable" games is all well and good especially when they happen to fit in with "making what you want to play". What happens when it doesnt but you can still be proud of a title and say, that game, thats what I wanted to make and play?

Sure there is a line in the sand where things go too far one way or another and there should be people in place to keep things in check. It'd be nice to know though that as a developer at a studio one can suggest something without fear of the suits coming in and chopping and idea to pieces. Theres something to say about artistic vision and getting as close to the original concept as possible in the final product!

 

[BOiNG]

There is no reason copies of UT3 should not be flying of the shelves.

Oh but there are. Many of them of which I will not be getting into, in order to keep this thread (somewhat) on track. (but it's enough to browse any UT3 related forum as to read why)
PC users didn't just decide to give "UT3 the finger" for no reason or because they had nothing better to do. They didn't all get together and form an alliance which sent letters to non-forum goers to not buy the game. There wasn't a massive plot being hatched behind the scenes to stop UT3 from selling well. It hasn't sold well for a reason.

Sorry, guess I am taking this thread off-topic.

 

[LMN8R]

Hey Cliffy.

Make your PC games not suck, and maybe they'll sell.


Sincerely,
LMN8R



*goes back to playing Team Fortress 2*

 

[Sir_Brizz]

I think people would be complaining about UT3 regardless of whether the big issues were present or not. And it may have sold exactly the same, as well. The biggest problem I see with UT3 sales is reviewers taking very retarded pot shots at it.

Anyone who has been paying attention to my posts knows I don't think that UT3 is perfect by any means. However, I also feel that the majority of reviewers did not play UT3 for long enough to review it properly (and that is based on the content of their reviews). Imagine if reviewers had called Crysis a Far Cry clone that looked the same but ran worse and had no striking gameplay enhancements over it. I'm sure the game's sales would have been pretty dismal if that had been going around. This is essentially what happened to UT3.

 

[UBerserker]

They like consoles? Ok. At least do great stuff like GOW, and I'm set.

Hey Cliffy.

Make your PC games not suck, and maybe they'll sell.

And its last PC game was the Gears of War port. He has nothing to do with UT3.

 

[BOiNG]

Mr. Bleszinski didn't work on UT3. Unless of course you're referring to GoW PC.

Though I'm sure that in a way Mr. Bleszinski's attitude will be somewhat representative of the entire company.

 

[sWs»Cheapshot]

I love it... Make a turd of a UI... Make hardly any attempt to Market the game... Remove functionality... and say that Consoles are the way to go when Many other titles are doing fine on the PC.

As if Epic is the know all say all of the Games Industry.

WoW is the prime example... People are still willing to play on a PC, and in this Market - If you tell the drones that "This" will be the Ultimate game you have ever played on the PC... they will buy it Plain and simple.

But the game ahs to be good... if you build it they will come.

 

[BOiNG]

I think people would be complaining about UT3 regardless of whether the big issues were present or not.

Like why? Why would players just complain about the game for no good reason?

The biggest problem I see with UT3 sales is reviewers taking very retarded pot shots at it.

Meta Critic disagrees.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree, personally.
Why did the other top FPS games get higher scores? Why was the short time they spent on those good enough for a review, but with UT 3 they should have waited for a patch (I'm not saying you implied this) or played it much longer?

It seems to me as if many a loyal fan is looking for the failings of UT3 on PC else where than with the actual game.

 

[zeitgeber]

bye bye epic

*removes bu from favorites*

 

[suibhne]

Wait, wait...I thought PC gamers were Epic's bread and butter?

Mark Rein, did you lie to me?

 

[Severin]

Can't blame the company for going where the the money is but you can blame them for a botched release of an unfinished product and then claiming their target audience is at fault for its failure.

Wait, wait...I thought PC gamers were Epic's bread and butter?

Mark Rein, did you lie to me?

why slum it with bread and butter when there is tasty console cake to be had

 

[Unregistered]

I said this when I saw the UT3 Demo and how the menu's seemed to be Console based. The term Consolitis was the term being thrown around. EPIC needs money to survive and the console game industry is where it's at by shear numbers so this was never and should never have been a surprise to any of us.

With that said, I would be careful EPIC because what goes around comes around! There's still no excuse to release a bad game (UT3) because PC or console word gets around fast in the gaming circles. There may yet be a time where the PC rules again and gamers have VERY short memories...