UT2k3 failure was not due to poor maps
- Thread starter TWD
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Sir_Brizz said:
No. The average gamer is now 5-10 years older, post college has a career and quite possibly a family...and they are still gaming. Although they may not play as much. Unlike in the past where your core group was young, today's core gaming group is getting older, and spreading out into other demographics. Which I suppose could be a part of the problem, as if they have played older games which they feel are 'superior' they would have less incentive to upgrade just to play the newest if it doesn't match up to what they are already playing. Instead they are more likely to take up other games which simply don't stress their systems if they think those games are more 'fun'.
PainAmplifier said:
This is why I think all of what you are saying is now outdated. Very true during the times mentioned, but not so much now. The hardware foreground has been mostly established. Yea, DOOM broke huge ground for what it was, but the game play wasn't all that great compared to most games of today. I think that is the difference these days. Gameplay.
Most of the advances needed to makes games as eye popping as they've become has been done. Now, a company has changed the face of gameplay (the next logical step), and really have no equal. So, they are trying to push another envelope. I think it just so happens that they stepped on their own feet a bit, but, when it comes down to it, after the community drops it's "gameplay" maps, and the company responds with theirs, and now it's not really an excuse, there still isn't a huge influx of people here. Back to specs.
The other thing about all the examples you listed, is that they were braking such huge ground at the time, you had nothing else like it to do, so naturally, yea, you upgrade your hardware if you wanna take part. Now, a 3d shooter, is a 3d shooter. Gameplay is varied, but all similar enough that you play what you can run, or what you can keep up with.
Even half-life 2 though is taking steps to improove their gameplay greatly (which was needed), and improove their grafix, but with something huge in mind, and that's not pushing the "you need new hardware" envelope. If nothing else, the polygon scaling abilities of the new engine stand tribute to that.
hal said:
I'm not sure which theory you meant, but I think it won't. It'll come out long afte 2k3, and have lower minimum requirements. If it's gameplay is anywhere near as improoved as UT2k3 was from UTs, then it will dominate the gamespy stats all day long. Especially after they port CS over too it... or sequel it...
hal said:
Half-Life 2
Doom 3
Duke Nukem Forever (Ok it's wishful thinking...
)Wizardry 9 (OK I'm *REALLY* wishing right now.
)Deus Ex 2
I think any of these games is one of the most likelies to push the 'average' computer hardware. Although the instant Bejeweled/Tetris/Solitaire requires a 2Ghz CPU 512MB Ram and a Radeon 9800/GF4 5900 we can expect a holo deck to be just around the corner...oh wait that might just be WinXPMSNBCExtraEditionProfessional(Coming soon now!). Of course their could be some other upstart game that could pop up and do this too. Although I doubt even HL2 will be enough to trigger the upgrade cycle again. I think we may simply have to wait out the obsolesence cycle before we see another mass migration again. (When Win98 goes out of support for a couple of years most likely since I just can't see any of these games pushing the envelope that much...)
$MP$-AEnubis said:
I think all Half-Life 2 needs to do is have requirements above that of a current (CS) players system....since that means they need to upgrade, but the relentless pace of PC developement has advanced so far that any of the newest *low end* computers should be enough to reach the point needed to play UT2k3...at which point we should be able to tell if it's just a hardware limitation or something else for certain.
(PS - I think the theory referred to is the one(s) which are comparing UT2k3 acceptance with the current level of PC hardware in most players setups...sorry if we implied it rather than stated it.)
Swift Viper
Long live Xmas Xan Mark III(By Hyrulian)
Not ture for everyoneSir_Brizz said:
but the other reason why I got a new comptuer was because my old one was like four years old (and buggy) anyway and it was time to move on. However, how come everyone is talking about something so different now and not the "failure" of UT2k3? My old computer would not run UT2k3 at all and after getting a new computer, I can run UT2k3, but not that well. I get like 30 FPS on "normal" detail maps and on higher detail maps, 15-20 FPS. It was hard enough getting that far, but not everyone has money to go out to get more FPS. I have all but one detail box clicked off, because if I run the game at max detail, it is nearly unplayable. I'm not really sure what video card I got (Windows XP), but it can't be a good one, because is 2.39 GHz and 504 MB of RAM ok? Plus, anything higher then 800x600 really lags the game down. In a INA thread "Long Grass and Spider Mines" they said they should force foliage on. I know it is not that many more polys, but even that one little option can being the FPS down on some computers. Their even starting to slam people who don't have "elite" enough machines, but not everyone is lucky to get the game to play well, infact there still might be people out there who can't run UT2k3 at all. Please, think about the people :sad: who already have a hard enough time just even getting the game to run, yet alone these extra detail settings, then again how often does Epic listen to this stuff? How much can a video card change FPS anyway?Edit: Please no flames
, I'm still a player too, just because I don't get all that much FPS.
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Swift Viper said:, but it can't be a good one, because is 2.39 GHz and 504 MB of RAM ok?
Edit: Please no flames
I take it you bought a computer package from a dealer/retail? If so you probably have a GF4 *MX* video card. Which frankly is a pretty sucky video card...good enough for older games, but too weak for UT2k3 and upcoming games. Either way just right-click the desktop and under display properties it should have the video card name/brand somewhere in the tabs...
Other than the video card, your system looks fine. (I had no problems even when I only had a AMD Athlon 600mhz.) A good video card and lots O' RAM is (512 MB) needed more than a blazing CPU. Also with a prebuilt system, you *REALLY* need to clean all the crap that is pre-loaded off your system. I just got done doing cleanup on a brand spanking new HP system (AMD XP 2600+) for a friend and out of the box the load time on boot was close to 5 minutes! After ripping all the crap out I got it down to something closer to 15 seconds!!! I wouldn't be suprised if you could get another 10-15FPS just by cleaning the bloat off. Unless you buy something like Alienware, rest assured you need to do some tweakin' to get the most out of your system. (Heck you made to tweak just to get decent performance out of a brand new system the way they load them down with blipverted crapola...)
Half of what made UT2k3 fail was how it was launched. Regardless of what anyone involved in the launch might say to the contrary, the game was rushed and lacked features.
It felt more like a console port when it was released. There were very few features carried over from UT...no HUD modifications, no Speech Binding, No IRC, no Demos, no nothing. It sucked, and just about everyone was turned off because of it.
How could they even think to make a sequel to one of the most successful games of all time, and then release it without 90% of the features we have come to love and expect in the game?
If the game had been released like it is now, im pretty sure the community would be at least double the size....if not more. Much more.
Finally, the new movemnets coupled with poor placement of static meshes, bad flow and poor framerates on many of the the maps would frustrate the guys who really attempted to like the game.
Here's a story from my clan past. The 55th all wanted to play ut2k3...badly. They are old school to the core. No instagib and such
i am the only one who plays it now...
I would finally convince everyone from the 55th to jump into a game and play(give it one more chance)..and we would all join a server, and then of all the bad luck, a stupid map like lavagiant, december or magma would come up...peeps would start dropping from the game after 5 minutes...and give up.
so I think its a combination of extreme disapointment with how unfinished the game was when it was released, and the unfamiliar movements combined with some poorly placed static meshes and some very bad maps (not all are bad, but enough are to frustrate those with little patience who are trying to find somthing to really like about the game) <--most gamers.
If given the chance, this game really grows on ya...i could play this for a long time myself. I love the new movemnts and the weapon balance (for the most part). And I just avoid the bad maps. And now the game has even more features than the original..as it should be.
UT2k4 is gonna get us back on track.
- Tye
It felt more like a console port when it was released. There were very few features carried over from UT...no HUD modifications, no Speech Binding, No IRC, no Demos, no nothing. It sucked, and just about everyone was turned off because of it.
How could they even think to make a sequel to one of the most successful games of all time, and then release it without 90% of the features we have come to love and expect in the game?
If the game had been released like it is now, im pretty sure the community would be at least double the size....if not more. Much more.
Finally, the new movemnets coupled with poor placement of static meshes, bad flow and poor framerates on many of the the maps would frustrate the guys who really attempted to like the game.
Here's a story from my clan past. The 55th all wanted to play ut2k3...badly. They are old school to the core. No instagib and such
i am the only one who plays it now...
I would finally convince everyone from the 55th to jump into a game and play(give it one more chance)..and we would all join a server, and then of all the bad luck, a stupid map like lavagiant, december or magma would come up...peeps would start dropping from the game after 5 minutes...and give up.
so I think its a combination of extreme disapointment with how unfinished the game was when it was released, and the unfamiliar movements combined with some poorly placed static meshes and some very bad maps (not all are bad, but enough are to frustrate those with little patience who are trying to find somthing to really like about the game) <--most gamers.
If given the chance, this game really grows on ya...i could play this for a long time myself. I love the new movemnts and the weapon balance (for the most part). And I just avoid the bad maps. And now the game has even more features than the original..as it should be.
UT2k4 is gonna get us back on track.
- Tye
Swift Viper
Long live Xmas Xan Mark III(By Hyrulian)
Intel(R) 82845G/GL Graphics ControllerPainAmplifier said:
That is what I got, no idea how bad it is, but that seems to be the only real problem (and lots of unused crap). How much would a good video card cost anyway? I want to remove all the crap, but there is so much of it and I would just get a clean start, but I lost Disc 1
. I could try to hold out to UT2k4 to get all the stuff needed again, but that will take awhile. Some mutators for some reason seem to being down the FPS . The computer came from a retail store.On-topic: Hopefully UT2k4 does not mess up like UT2k3 (or get rushed) or the community will break up again and lead to even more problems.
Double Dom isn't frustrating, nor is it annoying. Unless you really suck at it that is.TWD said:
Look, Quake3 has a lot of killer gameplay maps, unlike UT2003. UT2003 wasn't exactly a failure you know, it has sold pretty well, those people who think it's a huge failure are just hardcore UT players that want the "good old days" back.
For me Double Dom is the best mode, it's just been neglected UT2003 shipped with what? 6 Dom maps? And only a couple of them were any good. People want a little more variety than that, and when you have 30 DM maps that's what you get.
I could bet that if you stripped down the DM maps to 6 and had 30 DOM maps then you'd get more people playing DOM than DM. It's just that simple.
Dunno... what are there, like 1800 DM custom maps and 3 DD custom maps? I think the DD maps were actually some of the better group of maps in the game.
Suntemple, Core, Seppuku, and Outrigger are all very good maps. Scorched is fine for small groups. I'm not crazy about Ruination, but it's still a fun map (just a tad large). That pretty much covers all of the DD maps UT2003 shipped with. No other gametype can say that 70-80% of its official maps are very playable.
I just don't think it caught on because of the lack of the xloc. We all know the xloc would make scoring very, very difficult given the current rules, but I think the DOM players enjoyed the fast, three-control point setup that DOM had. DD is too different for most of them.
It's a good gametype, people just haven't taken to it for some reason.
Suntemple, Core, Seppuku, and Outrigger are all very good maps. Scorched is fine for small groups. I'm not crazy about Ruination, but it's still a fun map (just a tad large). That pretty much covers all of the DD maps UT2003 shipped with. No other gametype can say that 70-80% of its official maps are very playable.
I just don't think it caught on because of the lack of the xloc. We all know the xloc would make scoring very, very difficult given the current rules, but I think the DOM players enjoyed the fast, three-control point setup that DOM had. DD is too different for most of them.
It's a good gametype, people just haven't taken to it for some reason.
I think Proph's post on the main page sums up why UT2 seems to be losing popularity.
n00bs get turned off very quickly. We need n00bs.
n00bs get turned off very quickly. We need n00bs.
mmmmmmm.... civil duscuuusssssssion...
's ok... I got the implication, though I didn't see a we involved there. I just wasn't sure if he meant your theory or mine, which were quite converse, but with enough in common that he could have been taking some from the two...
Luck has little to do with it. Everyone has something that is "what they do". For those of us who did tech support, but built machines for a living, upkeeping a computer one part at a time is much more affordable, and feasible. Although, you don't even really have to have done it for a living. A little bit of reading, and you'd be suprised how easy dealing with the hardware is. Taming the windows beast is another world entirely.
Yea, because honestly, how many DM maps actually get played??
I wanted to disagree with you on why DD failed, but now that I think about it, I can't say why, to say you were off on your theory... you very well could be right... I personally liked the number of teams matching the number of control points, and 3 team DOM caught on way to late in UT's life. Then they dropped it to 2 and 2, and I thought it was cool (even with the new scoring). Even loc less, it was cool, better, for it could ruin the type (as stated). Don't understand it, I like the type too.
Another thing about my theory. Newbs don't upgrade their machines to play games they don't know they like yet (usually).
PainAmplifier said:
's ok... I got the implication, though I didn't see a we involved there. I just wasn't sure if he meant your theory or mine, which were quite converse, but with enough in common that he could have been taking some from the two...
Swift Viper said:
Luck has little to do with it. Everyone has something that is "what they do". For those of us who did tech support, but built machines for a living, upkeeping a computer one part at a time is much more affordable, and feasible. Although, you don't even really have to have done it for a living. A little bit of reading, and you'd be suprised how easy dealing with the hardware is. Taming the windows beast is another world entirely.
hal said:
Yea, because honestly, how many DM maps actually get played??
I wanted to disagree with you on why DD failed, but now that I think about it, I can't say why, to say you were off on your theory... you very well could be right... I personally liked the number of teams matching the number of control points, and 3 team DOM caught on way to late in UT's life. Then they dropped it to 2 and 2, and I thought it was cool (even with the new scoring). Even loc less, it was cool, better, for it could ruin the type (as stated). Don't understand it, I like the type too.
Peregrine said:
Another thing about my theory. Newbs don't upgrade their machines to play games they don't know they like yet (usually).
It's funny, but all the DOM maps play better as CTF. I've ported all of them for my own pleasure as I actually really like the maps but don't like the gameplay in DDOM (done that with the BR maps too, they're all more fun as CTF especially Skyline). I loved old DOM with the fast pace and constant movement, trying to keep all 3 points secure. DDOM just seems to be 'grab a point, camp til your team gets the other one'. Certainly in Botmatches that's how it goes and I don't play online so that kind of limits the enjoyment factor of both BR and DDOM.
CTF on the other hand, I love playing with bots
"I can defend my base and not be called a camper"
"I can attack and kill a load of enemy bots without being called a cheating haXXorer35434SAF55D00EF mo5433kkffjdsk lamer cheater blah blah 1337 blah"
"I can freelance and simply run around killing for a high personal score if I don't feel like capping and not be put down for not playing as part of 'the team'"
Plus, bots make me laugh with the silly stuff they do
CTF on the other hand, I love playing with bots
"I can defend my base and not be called a camper"
"I can attack and kill a load of enemy bots without being called a cheating haXXorer35434SAF55D00EF mo5433kkffjdsk lamer cheater blah blah 1337 blah"
"I can freelance and simply run around killing for a high personal score if I don't feel like capping and not be put down for not playing as part of 'the team'"
Plus, bots make me laugh with the silly stuff they do
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Swift Viper
Long live Xmas Xan Mark III(By Hyrulian)
Stuff missing that UT had
There were a lot of missing things UT2k3 did not have that UT had, some little, some a little bit more. Some stuff got added in the patches, some might get added in UT2k4.
There were a lot of missing things UT2k3 did not have that UT had, some little, some a little bit more. Some stuff got added in the patches, some might get added in UT2k4.
- Can't change HUD color unless you use TTM, but should have been a Epic option.
- Auto Skill option only in Team/Deathmatch, but in the other gamemodes there spot where it used to be in is empty .
- Can't watch other players while playing on the fly like in UT.
- No aircontrol option, I'm tried of setting aircontrol in the console every match because Epic could not put the option in the game menu.
- More stuff I forgot about.
- If you make changes in the settings and mutators, but click on back, it all gets reset to what it was last time, I hate it when I set some things around and then have to click back and not start the game due to real life reasons.
- The countdown before a match starts, I know there is a mutator to remove it, but what was the point of the countdown in the first place?
- Falling damages seems to be a bit mess up, there seems to be a limit on how much damage you can take from a fall (in UT it could go pass 1,000).
- Many other little reasons.
Another point about the falling damage - Have you noticed that bots can fall slightly further than human players without taking damage? Watch a bot jump from the upper level in Face3; it takes no damage as it hits the floor. Try it yourself, and you take damage (only a couple of points but it's still an unfair advantage on the bots). There's other maps like that too you can try it on, can't think of them ATM though.
2 things I want back:
No countdown as Swift mentioned there. But also I'd love the sound when you first spawn in a map to be put back.
I'd also love the Spree sound back, dunno why I just liked the little sound when someone went on a killing spree
2 things I want back:
No countdown as Swift mentioned there. But also I'd love the sound when you first spawn in a map to be put back.
I'd also love the Spree sound back, dunno why I just liked the little sound when someone went on a killing spree