New DTAS

[frenchfrog]

thx Harper for answering my questions,

I also like the idea of flag placement time dependant on the map play time.

EDIT:
ok some comments:

I think the "-4 dying as the fox when other defenders are still alive" is a bit harsh . You could have been a stupid fox but your team could also have been stupid defenders. So I suggest modifying it this way "-2 dying as the fox when other defenders are still alive and not close to the fox".

You could also introduce a rogue fox defender penalty, "-3 being living defender not close to fox when the fox is killed".

Because in the end, fox ~= flag.

EDIT EDIT:
Also, do we really want endless fox rounds? "+2 surviving the round by time as the fox" seems to push in that direction.

EDIT EDIT EDIT:
the descriptions of the scoring system in the readme could be divised in 3 applicable categories: "General", "DTAS", "FOX"

 

[ant75]

IMO it would be better to connect flag placing time to map time instead. I would add a bool ini setting so you can choose between the standard 5-15 seconds or the first 2% of map time.
A 2% of map time setting would lead to placing times like:

Map Time - Placing Time
===================
8min - 9,6(10)
10min - 12
12min - 14,4(14)
15min - 18
20min - 24

I have to say i'm against this idea. I've always been praising shorter placing times to emphasize randomness. Longer placing times allow people to always place the flag in the same 2 or 3 spots, which kills the interest of RTS imho. Take a map like tigerhunt for example : sometimes (quite seldom unfortunately) the defending team spawns in the middle of the map. In this case the flag usually end up being placed in a house, or randomly in the open because the placing defender had no clue. This provides a very interesting gameplay, and most often leaves snipers like me helpess, for you don't know where the enemy is coming from. Now with a placing time like 24 seconds, it won't be difficult to reach one of the edges of the map, and place the flag like 95% of the time, behind a hill. I admit that bad placement of the flag can sometimes be unfair, but they are the more interesting rounds to play, because it forces you to improvise, and not play the same old scenario.
If you want total fairness and predictability, you want EAS. DTAS is not about that imho.

 

[Nukeproof]

I guess you have a good point there Ant... makes me reconsider.

 

[zeep]

Yes good point ant. I know you've said it before too. Let's try shortening placement time.

 

[keihaswarrior]

I still think DTAS should just copy Red Orchestra's capture system...

DTAS death still needs to be removed
We need a capture bar that fills up
Newbs need more guidance, they have no clue

my .2

 

[O_DoGG]

I'm all for a shorter flag placement time as well,for the reasons well described by anTKilla. I like playing a different scenario each round, map after map.

DTAS death has been already extensively discussed, and the conclusion iirc was that it's a necessary evil for the sake of gameplay. We don't want one-man captures, do we?

About the progress bar, is coding such a feature really worth the effort? We already have a countdown showing on hud, more than enough imo.

 

[Harper [Jgkdo]]

I still think DTAS should just copy Red Orchestra's capture system...

No, from what I have read here it is exactly what would DTAS less teamoriented and I am really curious to see whether they will implement a minimum player number for captures

About the progress bar, is coding such a feature really worth the effort?

As a developer I can answer this question with a "NO". First it really takes quite some time to code it and second what's the point in making a already accurate display (time) less accurate?

I'm all for a shorter flag placement time as well,for the reasons well described by anTKilla. I like playing a different scenario each round, map after map.

So you all say that the current possibility of choosing a flag placing time between 5 and 15 seconds is ok or do you still believe there there should be a per map placing time setting (just with a lower percentage value than 2%)?

Newbs need more guidance, they have no clue

What should be done about it? Iirc, in the beginning of a DTAS map it says to press F2 for details. If you do you will see a description what needs to be done. I am very reluctant to any more aggressive information policy like spamming messages or similar intrusive approaches. But if you have a suggestion how to lead newbs to information they seek without hassling the more experienced players let's here it.

 

[Cleeus[JgKdo]]

I partly agree with Ant - making the placetime proportional to the mapsize will lead to boring gameplay because the flag allways ends up at the same places.

The current FlagPlaceTime is 15s on JgKdo. This already leaves alot of freedom. I'd say something between 10s and 15s is ok ( 10s <= x <= 15s ), because if its only a few seconds the placetime could as well be disabled.

 

[- Lich -]

Well, placing time between 5 and 15 seconds sounds good to me. This way admins can adjust the time better, maybe considering the *density of good flag places* on a map.

New guys needing more guidance: Maybe tell them about the mutate dtashelp and make that work again (I do not get a message there).

BTW.: You got a weird standard .ini in the zip:
AttackersNeeded=1
DefendersNeeded=4

 

[O_DoGG]

So you all say that the current possibility of choosing a flag placing time between 5 and 15 seconds is ok or do you still believe there there should be a per map placing time setting (just with a lower percentage value than 2%)?

Sorry, haven't taken the time to explain. I meant that imho the idea of a map-dependant placing time setting is a good idea (although I don't know if it's worth the hassle, but I'm willing to stand corrected ) but I fail to see the interest of such a setting if it drives to a longer delay in flag placing; I'm all for it though if it shortens the delay in small maps à la Grozny. So a lower percentage than 2% sounds good.

The current FlagPlaceTime is 15s on JgKdo. This already leaves alot of freedom. I'd say something between 10s and 15s is ok ( 10s <= x <= 15s ), because if its only a few seconds the placetime could as well be disabled.

My opinion exactly. 15 seconds sounds like a good delay for big maps à la Tigerhunt, but smaller maps could use a delay around 10 seconds.

Anyways, thanks for trying to make this awesome gametype even more awesome :tup:

 

[Derelan]

my .2

We drew the line eighteen cents ago.

 

[Harper [Jgkdo]]

New guys needing more guidance: Maybe tell them about the mutate dtashelp and make that work again (I do not get a message there).

I admit the information displayed by "mutate dtashelp" is outdated. I didn't thought anyone would still use it since the necessary information is already displayed when looking at the F2 server info screen (and IMO it is more likely that newbs will notice the "Press F2 for details" than typing "mutate dtashalp" without any reason (they can only get that information from the DTAS readme or from other players and the first source should already give them enough explanation )
Anyway, just make suggestions which text should be displayed by "mutate dtashelp" (especially useful would be a line by line text which I could just copy&paste into DTAS )

BTW.: You got a weird standard .ini in the zip:
AttackersNeeded=1
DefendersNeeded=4

Looks like my offline testing settings. I will try to remember fixing it when I release the next version

15 seconds sounds like a good delay for big maps à la Tigerhunt, but smaller maps could use a delay around 10 seconds.

The actual map size (walkable area) is not measurable (except summing up the length of the bot path network which still vary much).
I still think basing flag place time on map time is a good idea (maybe not with my proposed percentage but in steps like:
map time >= 15min -> flag place time=15 seconds
15min >map time >= 10min -> flag place time =10 seconds
10min <map time -> 8 seconds

 

[Nukeproof]

I still think basing flag place time on map time is a good idea (maybe not with my proposed percentage but in steps like:
map time >= 15min -> flag place time=15 seconds
15min >map time >= 10min -> flag place time =10 seconds
10min <map time -> 8 seconds

sounds very good to me

 

[Cleeus[JgKdo]]

what about a math function with an upper limit of 15s?

 

[Harper [Jgkdo]]

placetime=rand()%15

 

[Crowze]

Actually, some randomness in the flag placement time could make things quite interesting... how about placetime(secs) = maptime(mins) - (rand() * maptime(mins) / 3)? So, a 15 minute round time would be 15s - (0 to 5) = 10-15s.

placetime=rand()%15

 

[Vega-don]

i think that dtas is already great, but would gain in greatness with shorter flag placement times.
when you are the flag placer, you sometimes have to stay in a certain position, waiting for the flag to appear, and during this time in small maps you are vulnerable and you loose time. as a fighter it would be more effective to be already looking for a defensive position.. but you have to wait for the flag

 

[O_DoGG]

map time >= 15min -> flag place time=15 seconds
15min >map time >= 10min -> flag place time =10 seconds
10min <map time -> 8 seconds

Sounds perfect to me. Slight randomness (within the time limits set above) as suggested by Crowze sounds good too.

Don, even if I'm too for shorter flag placement times, the point you raise doesn't sound valid to me: if you're the flag placer and are in direct danger at the beginning of a round (which doesn't happen often btw), run and take cover, even if as a result the flag isn't put in the best possible place, or take the risk and fiercely stand up in the LOS of the enemy... Choice is yours, part of the game if you ask me.

 

[Harper [Jgkdo]]

New version after a loooong time.

Not much new though, just an internal change of handling players who dies in range.
Lich told me that sometimes it happened that if an attacker dies in range the flag will be captured. I couldn't find a pattern but made a small change that might fix it (or make it worse )
In addition there are two new admin commands,
"mutate DTASBeDefender" and "mutate DTASBeAttacker".
They will make your team attacker or defender, log out the admin using the command and restart the round.

@DTASAL admins: Would you allow this version as a valid DTAS for the league? I can't guarantee that my internal change didn't break anything but I consider it unlikely (especially because its the same check used to count living players)

 

[ant75]

Sorry for resurecting the thread, i have a dumb question to ask. I'm setting up a dtas server and i wish to have a different map time for each map (that is, i wanna make the dtas countdown longer or shorter depending on map size).
The readme implies that it's possible :

bUseMapTimes: use the custom map time instead of InfilWeapons.RoundTime

but doesn't really say how. So where can i configure per map time settings ?