France and "religious symbols"

[Vega-don]

kinda agree with saraP for this one

it wasnt always like that, but its true that the islamic religion NOWADAYS brings war and racism and terrorism more than the others religions.
i had contact with people of many religions and i knew many muslims (i doubt that alot of the posters in this topic even talked to a muslim once though) , they where the most racists and integrist people..not all but some are new fascists.
even a girl who is a good friend of me , i liked her very much ,she wasnt racist at me (whiteY) but i discovered that she had racist views about jew people
Now all the muslims arent like that ,i know open minded muslims

im not a specialist of this religion enough to say if its the religion who brings the terrorism or if its terrorists who use the religion..

 

[[C22]-Mort]

I lived in Saudi Arabia for over 3 years, Riyadh, Dhahran, Al-Khobar, Jiddah & 3 Months in Mecca the spiritual Centre for Islam and friends and relatives :-
A> were forbidden to drive (because they were women)!
B> were forced to cover themselves in public, for thier own safety (because they were women)!
C> Were unable to appear in public unaccompanied, for thier own safety (because they were women)
D> the authorities tried to stop them sunbathing on a private beach as Saudi's were massing on the other shore of the bay with binoculars & telescopes and they thought it might spark off something!

We lived in walled compounds for our own protection, we were unable to practice ANY religion that was NOT islam, women could be subject to execution or mutilation for breaking so-called "religious laws" which have no equivalent for men!

The common saudi's live in shacks and "shanty-towns" whilst the rich live in palaces! Yet we hear none of this on the news or read about it in newspapers.....hmmm maybe because they share thier oil with us so we turn a blind eye!

Yet Saudi Arabia is acknowledged as one of the most moderate of muslim regimes ... well my disgust for other regimes is tenfold!

This is NOT the actions of extremists but the day-to-day actions of a "moderate" regime!

 

[MadWoffen]

The situation in France that led to this ban is a bit particular, yes, I consider as an extreme measure but a necessary measure given the extreme conditions France is facing with a small portion of his immigrant community.

The problem is that a lot of muslims have been packed on ghettos and integrists are profiting from it to the point that in some french cities, if you are a FRENCH catholic/agnostic/pick everything and want to open a pub that sells alcohol, odds are that your business may be burned to the ground in less than a month.
In the same register, tolerant muslims (or even arabs that are non-believers) who don't look too much to tradition like not eating during the ramadan have been chased and beaten in public for just having eaten a sandwich at noon by youth integrists commandos that patrol the city.
And finally, still in the same register and to join what was already said: they also control/humiliate the women, the scarf becoming a sign of submissed woman while those who don't want to wear it are treated as bitch/raped/beaten...pick a choice. Things are going worse and worse since more and more women are seen wearing the burka, you know, the thing that cover every piece of skin.
It has reached a point that even non-believers women are wearing the scarf to just get some peace from these integrists.

So yes, extreme measure, would it change anything ? If no other actions are taken in parallel, I don't think so but together with other initiatives, I think it could.

It's a pretty scary situation in these ghettos and French share their burden in this situation by packing them there and leaving them alone with no police patrol daring to enter, etc,...for so many years.
It has become a playground for integrists/fascist like attitude and I wouldn't bother if the French gvt send the army in to clear a bit the ranks of these morons who are imposing their views by force.

Just to clear a bit the situation.


BTW, scarf is banned in universities and/or schools in muslim countries like Tunisia or Turkey (secularists gvt but with a muslim majority population).

 

[unixman]

Doesn't anyone remember the Christian Crusades? Boy, that sure was a demonstration of peace and love.

 

[fist_mlrs]

middle eastern countrys are prone to anti american terrorism. sibirian regions are prone to anti russion terrorism. southeast asia is prone to antianyoneelse terrorism. why do some people think america is the only country on earth to be a target of "terrorists"? terrorism is not a product of religion but the political and social situation of a country. religion may, to a small part, help the leaders of these countrys to spread their hate. but in no way it is the only, not even the primary reason for these problems. the arabian antiamericansm has its sources, but claimign that you become a terrorist if you belive into islam is the most ignorant thing to say. you want to prove the evilness of islam by the way some islamic nations do today? well, again look at christianity. it has been a nice thing to get some support for wars till today, that funny little austrian with the crazy mustache wasn't only a cristian, but he was supported by the pope himself. how can such a person possible be evil?

 

[MadWoffen]

Doesn't anyone remember the Christian Crusades? Boy, that sure was a demonstration of peace and love.

The first crusade killed mainly christians. By their acting, Turkey, which was a christian majority country at that time became...muslim. It was one of the worst christian slaughtery of all times and it didn't started in Turkey (where they were just killing brownies without knowing their religion) but also in the Balkans where some kingdoms/baronnies refused to provide supply to the crusaders (just because they were too numerous to satisfy) and as result, crusaders pillaged the region and burned/killed/raped other christians...

One may wonder what would have happened if the crusades never happened...I think there is a comfortable probability that Turkey would be a christian bastion by now.

 

[Vega-don]

middle eastern countrys are prone to anti american terrorism. sibirian regions are prone to anti russion terrorism. southeast asia is prone to antianyoneelse terrorism. why do some people think america is the only country on earth to be a target of "terrorists"? terrorism is not a product of religion but the political and social situation of a country. religion may, to a small part, help the leaders of these countrys to spread their hate. but in no way it is the only, not even the primary reason for these problems. the arabian antiamericansm has its sources, but claimign that you become a terrorist if you belive into islam is the most ignorant thing to say. you want to prove the evilness of islam by the way some islamic nations do today? well, again look at christianity. it has been a nice thing to get some support for wars till today, that funny little austrian with the crazy mustache wasn't only a cristian, but he was supported by the pope himself. how can such a person possible be evil?

all muslims here

 

[fist_mlrs]

shall i go on? central african countrys are prone to anti-white and anti-otherclans terrorism, parts of northern america are prone to anti-nonchristian and anti-authority terrorism, parts of europe prone to antisemitism, isral to anti-palestinan violence...

 

[unixman]

The first crusade killed mainly christians. By their acting, Turkey, which was a christian majority country at that time became...muslim. It was one of the worst christian slaughtery of all times and it didn't started in Turkey (where they were just killing brownies without knowing their religion) but also in the Balkans where some kingdoms/baronnies refused to provide supply to the crusaders (just because they were too numerous to satisfy) and as result, crusaders pillaged the region and burned/killed/raped other christians...

One may wonder what would have happened if the crusades never happened...I think there is a comfortable probability that Turkey would be a christian bastion by now.

I wasn't trying to say that it was Christians vs. Muslims. My point was that it is hypocritical to point out some choice excerpts from the Bible and the Koran and try to peg one as peaceful and the other violent. History has proved otherwise. Religion has been the single largest cause of conflict in human history.

 

[MadWoffen]

I wasn't trying to say that it was Christians vs. Muslims. My point was that it is hypocritical to point out some choice excerpts from the Bible and the Koran and try to peg one as peaceful and the other violent. History has proved otherwise. Religion has been the single largest cause of conflict in human history.

My point was just to show another side (and less known) of the hypocresy of the crusades.

 

[BobTheFearlessFish]

kinda agree with saraP for this one

even a girl who is a good friend of me , i liked her very much ,she wasnt racist at me (whiteY) but i discovered that she had racist views about jew people

this means absolutely nothing you just said 'i knew a girl and she was a muslin and she hated jews' so?

 

[Vega-don]

this means absolutely nothing you just said 'i knew a girl and she was a muslin and she hated jews' so?

you misread me : i said :


i had contact with people of many religions and i knew many muslims (i doubt that alot of the posters in this topic even talked to a muslim once though) , they where the most racists and integrist people

the girl was just an exemple of a situation that i encountered with many muslims

 

[Rostam]

haha sarap I have translated the 10 commandments and trust me, no God is nice. Not according to christianity, not according to islam. God is an ******* that will punish you forever if you don't like him, read it. It's funny.

edit:
Also, most of you can't see the difference between religion (that thing some people need to be sure they won't ever need to actually think themselves) and tyrannie. Most things you see in "islamic" countries has nothing to do with islam, it's only there to repress the people.

Also there are about 1 billion muslims in the world, I wonder what made you so arrogant you thought you could just insult all those people.

 

[TheWhaleShark]

In any case, Islam is a religion that is inherently friendly to terrorism; as such, I see no problem whatsoever with the government stepping in and saying you're not allowed to broadcast your support of it in public places.

How the **** did you ever get into Caltech?

 

[Saladin]

YAR, its time for the board's muslim to have his say. And this is like one of the few times im on jaunty's side.

Ok first off, the veil is not a sign of oppression, ok no, it jsut isnt, my mom chooses to wear it by choice, is she oppresed, is she being forced to wear it? no shes doing what islam means, submitting to the will of god, we beleive god asked women to cover their hair, and thats it. Now when religion is forced upon people who dont believe it (sacriligious in islam btw) then thats opression, but people in France arent being forced to do that. Also ever know that this law applies to jews wearing skullcaps and shawls, and sikhs wearing turbans? yeah, its part of their religion too, and its not offensive, so i dont see the point of banning it.

Second, Islam is not a religion that supports terrosim, it supports the defense of your beliefs. Theres even a damned war code, cant kill women and children, dont destroy a place you have conqured (like burn everything down, pillage and rape the village....you know, like the christians used to do....). it supports defense of your religion. And you must defend it in a human manner.

Now about your quotes from the translated qur'an, which btw loses half of its meaning when translated into english (main reason why recital is done in arabic and not other languages), well look similar things appear in the Bible and other religions, and I wont consider them to be religions supporting terrorists, and another thing, when you quote things like that, you might want to know context, or say, quote the entire damned thing like the one below.

Its from
Sura - 8 (Al-Anfaal)
Order Of Revelation 88, Verses: 75

[8:12] Recall that your Lord inspired the angels: "I am with you; so support those who believed. I will throw terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved. You may strike them above the necks, and you may strike even every finger."

Thats god saying he will punish the disbelievers, ok, god, thats like saying, if they dont believe in me, im sending them to hell, and you angels can strike above those who disbelieved- note that past tense, yeah more hint its talking about hell- dont misquote, this has nothing to do with terrorism, just God, angels, and misbelievers in hell. (which btw, god does not say all misbelievers will goto hell)

Next up is from:
Sura - 9 (Bara'ah)
Order Of Revelation 113, Verses: 127

[9:5] Once the Sacred Months are past, and they refuse to make peace, you may kill the idol worshipers when you encounter them, punish them, and resist every move they make. If they repent and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), you shall let them go. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

Ok see those misbelievers who refuse to make peace, those are the ones you can kill, because to them the war is still going on, and they still want to kill you.....see how its different from what you quoted.

Now this next misquote you used, well, i dont know where you came up with it, cause i have a quran here right in front of me that says in 2 languages that you dont know what you're talking about---and you just might have wanted to see the sentences before and after this one, its another thing thats lost in translation, because misbelievers doesnt mean everyone, in this next case it means the warring kufar tribes.

[9:27] Ultimately, GOD redeems whomever He wills. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

[9:28] O you who believe, the idol worshipers are polluted; they shall not be permitted to approach the Sacred Masjid after this year. If you fear loss of income, GOD will shower you with His provisions, in accordance with His will. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.

[9:29] You shall fight back against those who do not believe in GOD, nor in the Last Day, nor do they prohibit what GOD and His messenger have prohibited, nor do they abide by the religion of truth - among those who received the scripture.

Well this last part, hrm i figured id edit and explain. God basically says, dont let those rock worshipers use this sacred masjid, the kabah/kibleh/etc - Its beleived to be built by abraham, and the beleivers should not let the idol worshipers keep their idols up in it. I believe abraham and jesus both ended up smashing some idols in their time.

Ok i just refuted 3 quotes that you put up, im ready for more if you would like, theres a problem w/ english translations as we just saw, especially when you on have a snibbit of the whole thing. You cant go and misquote like that, its like this:

Joe: That guy is like hitler, he says "i hate jews" all the time.
Person Misquoting: OMG YOU HATE JEWS!!!!!!!

to me its that sad, considering i know what it really means.

Islam is not, is not, IS NOT, a religion that supports terrorism, the mindless killing of any of god's creations is a sin in our religion, which ends up being a ticket to hell. Saying that is like saying all catholics rape children, and no it isnt true. I will respect your religion, or lack of, even though you may not respect mine, I just have to say no it isnt a religion of terrorism, thats just mindless bigotry.

Back to the subject, the religious clothing is in no way offensive, and as long as we are allowing freedom of religion, I think we should somehow reinforce that freedom to practice religion is a part of that.

 

[DarkBls]

you misread me : i said :


i had contact with people of many religions and i knew many muslims (i doubt that alot of the posters in this topic even talked to a muslim once though) , they where the most racists and integrist people

the girl was just an exemple of a situation that i encountered with many muslims

I'm with you on this one. Muslims are not rare here ("Quelle est la premiere ville arabe traversé par le Paris-Dakar ?"), and I agree. Their view is pretty scary. Just go to all muslim site around internet.
The future for the France is very dark.... (I don't know about other european countries).

I hate SaraP. Maybe I hate her because I'm *almost* the french counter part of her as I think I share a lot of common thing with her. I love my homeland. I don't know what will happend. But count on me to give my blood for having a peacefull extremist-clean country.
I think I'm developed enough to talk before thinking of fight. But if the country needs, the talk could be 5.56-based.

 

[Saladin]

that was a long one, now about bigotry by muslims, well it happens, just like it happens in judaism - im going to Emory next year, and its filled of arab hating jews. - it happens in christianity too (KKK, aryan nation - arguably the southern baptist convention (well some of the members not all)) and other religions, doesnt make it right, or supported by the religion. In fact you are supposed to respect other religions and races (heck races especially, one of the first converts was a slave who was freed from being tortured to death).

its wrong, it isnt everyone who does it, and its not only muslims who do it.

 

[MadWoffen]

Ok first off, the veil is not a sign of oppression, ok no, it jsut isnt, my mom chooses to wear it by choice, is she oppresed, is she being forced to wear it? no shes doing what islam means, submitting to the will of god, we beleive god asked women to cover their hair, and thats it. Now when religion is forced upon people who dont believe it (sacriligious in islam btw) then thats opression, but people in France arent being forced to do that.

It seems you missed the point here: in France, girls and women ARE FORCED to wear the scarf or even the burka. That is, in some cities of France that became integrists bastions.
Read my post, even moderate male muslim may be in trouble if they are seen drinking a beer. As sad as it sounds, this may well be necessity for an exceptional situation but as I said, this law alone won't help much if no other decisions are taken to provide some synergies in order to root oit extremists.

As for the ban of other religious symbols, it is called balance and politic. The only way to calm down tensions.

The thing is: scarfs and other obvious religious signs are banned in public schools for long. Some muslims didn't respect this and there was many problems hence the need to make a law about it. I don't see why a western woman must abide to islamic law in Saudi Arabia while muslim women shouldn't in France by their own will. That is also called balance and fairness. Not to mention the scarf is even forbidden in some muslim majority countries in schools and/or universities.

As for your coment about no woman being forced to wear the veil, it is just an idiot comment from someone too blind to seek a bit the truth behind the story. I can't count the number of interviews muslim women in different arabic countries (I'm counting France in it ) gave to journalists, generally with their face hidden and telling how much they would like to get rid off the scarf and show their feminity in public...but they can't because of what would think the family or because the pression of their father or brothers.

 

[MadWoffen]

The future for the France is very dark.... (I don't know about other european countries).

It's ok here. Some of my best drunken nights at the university were with arabs, either atheists or moderate muslims (they just don't drink during Ramadan). And altough some cities have "clusters" of muslims in certain area, they are mixed with other religious communities and this help a lot in integration and moderation.

We had some trouble some years ago in Brussels but they were not religiously based. More recently, in Antwerpen, there was some trouble with a extremist pro-Palestinian group but too bad for them, Antwerpen is also the bastion of the flemish right-wing fascists group Vlaamse Blok and altough they have been barred from power by a coalition, the police is "heavely handed" and don't worry too much about some rights...

 

[})FA|Snake]

Salidin said Islam doesn't force women to wear scarves, you're talking about politics and extreamists.

The burka and headscarves actually aren't techniquely part of Islam, its a beddewan(sp?) tradition that has carried over into Islam, don't know enough about it to say exactly how it made the jump into islam but I know mohamed lived with the beddewans (i know the spelling is way oof maybe salidan can help me) so i suspect thats part of it