France and "religious symbols"

[Harry_C]

I'm all for the no religious thing in public school.
That's why there are private schools runned by religious orders, some are jewish, catholic or protestant (been in some of them).

Those schools tend to have better reputation, they have more funds than their public counterparts and have better equipment, buildings etc ...
And they are generally more strict towards some "behaviour".

Oh and their teachers are partially paid by the governement, had followed the official cursus to become teachers and must teach the official course.
So those schools aren't low grade.

 

[SaraP]

How is Islam any more terrorist-friendly than christianity? Or have we forgotten about the abortion clinic bombings and shootings?

The difference is that abortion bombing is something that some misguided Christians do on their own, wheras jihad is something that Islam teaches ALL Muslims to do. Moderates ignore that teaching, which is good, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a formal, official part of the Islamic religion. That makes Islam inherently terrorist friendly. Or do you think it's purely by accident that the vast majority of terrorists are Islamic?

 

[fist_mlrs]

imo teachers should not wear any religios symbols (unless they teach this religion). students however should be allowed to wear whatever they want.

-insert random ignorant racist bull****

you make me sick, go away. hell, even jaunty looks like a human beeing next to this crap you write.

 

[spm1138]

A Christian going on about how Islam encourages people to commit violent acts is pretty f cking rich.

 

[SaraP]

I'm all for religious freedom, but radical Islam steps outside the realm of tolerance when it backs terrorism. Islam is a religion of hate which teaches that all non-Muslims are infidels who must be converted by any means necessary including violent force. As an example, in many Muslim nations it is a capital crime to convert from Islam to another religion.

To their credit, most Muslims do not adhere to those doctrines; nonetheless, they're part and parcel of the religion. Hence, while it would be untrue and unfair to say that all Muslims are terrorists or terrorist sympathizers, it *is* true (however unpleasant) to say that Islam is a terrorist friendly religion.

 

[fist_mlrs]

ever heard of that other religion that does this... how was it called again... ah, right: christianity?

if you want to prove to be an incredible ignorant, uneducated person with a perfect black and white point of view you are doing a great job. way to go :tup:


--edit--

ever heard about the islamic world being a novum in tollerance and education when the christan crusaders gone "oh noes, these evil brownies want to destroy us! hey, lets kill them all!"? oh, no - i forgot. christans are the good guys who won't do anything bad whilst the islam is a evil ofspring of satanism dedicated to murder any christians.

of course the social and political situation has nothing to do with a lot of the islamic countrys being kinda prone to antiamericanist terrorism, they are lesser humans of a questionable religion after all. and there isn't any terrorsim in other parts of the world, right?


ps: islam says nothing about killing nonbelievers, beside in the parts it has in common with the bible. actually mohamed said to respect other peoples believes and not to force your own will onto them iirc.

 

[Vers Vlees]

If they want to ban the headscarf thats fine. (To be honest I dont see that headscarf as a religious symbol. I mean how many old white ladies walk with these things when its cold) But I thinkt we should do it the french way. Because they banned every religious symbol on public school. Crusifix and keppels or yamulka's included. So no double standards bull**** with yes you can have Crusifix and yamulka's but no headscarfs
I get the feeling they want only to ban headscarfs in holland. And I find that real bull****. Wanna ban one religous symbol then you gotta ban them all. And not do it the german way.
The liberals (VVD) seem to be really bent on this. Hell these liberals have some really odd double standards when it comes to muslims. Like the banning or limiting muslims schools but they seem to forget who was most obsessed with passing the law of freedom of education. (yes in the Dutch educational system the Vrijheid van onderwijs or freedom of education is the most holy of holy all educational laws) Eventough that law was created 100 years ago it still applies today. It means every religion can create its own schools but the state controls the quality of the education.
It means that the students dont get crappy lesson material and they can keep up in the finals organised by the state.
I mean every body seems to bitch about how muslims see homo's like inferior beings. But hell there are enough Right winged christians who think the same. The only difference is that the muslims dont hide it. Just go to a small town off villages where the SGP(right winged christians) rules. Ask them what they think about homo's and you will get the exact same answer any muslim extremist would say.
Also about woman oppression. The only place in for a woman is in the kitchen attiude. There are enough christians who think the same. Ill take the example off the SGP again. They were sued by a female member because they wanted her out of the party because she was a woman.
I knew a girl who was bitching about how muslim crountry's didnt give woman a chance in politics. but I reminded her that holland has never had a female prime minster (but yes even the colony's YES COLONY's had 2 female PM's) Pakistan has also had election's were woman in partipated and they got a lot off votes too.India has had a female PM's (read daughter of ghandi I think but its a female) yes sri lanka had a woman once or atleast in high positions. Indonesia yes even the world biggest muslim nation has a female President.

Keep in mind there is no other country in the world that enforces the seperation of state and church as France. Because they believe in equality etc thing. and many ppl may not know it but Turkey does it too. (yes omg a muslim country has it kekekekeke HAX impossible ) but it is tru and Turkey has been very secular since attaturk

I believe that the separetion of state and church is one of the most important things in a democracy. Alright I wont bitch about have a text in the 1 and 2 euro coins reading God zijt met ons (god be with us). but swearing on the bible or religious symbols in the justice system or any other state institute dont belong there.
And to be honest there are countries who could take an example to this secularism. Espiacially the ones who bitch and whine the most against certain muslim theocracy countries.

 

[Hadmar]

Exactly. Banning Muslim headscarfs is like banning swastikas; the fact that they're symbols of tyranny and oppression overrides any other meanings they may have.

Because of mental diarrhea like yours I have to live with censored games and comics. I hope you are proud, oh freedom loving one.
*edit*
The thread had 13 replys when I clicked quote... multi-instapost-ahoy.

Your racism makes me sick.

 

[SaraP]

Perhaps we should let the religions speak for themselves instead of throwing insults at each other:

Islam

"...I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their fingertips off them." (Sura 8:12)

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem." (Sura 9:5)

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth of the people of the Book, until they pay the jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued." (Sura 9:29)

Christianity

"Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God." (Matthes 5:9

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you." (Matthew 5:43-44)

"Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another." (Romans 14:19)

 

[MetalMickey]

How difficult would it be for me to go look up some violent quotes from the bible and peaceful quotes from the Koran and post them here?

Congratulations, you can use google. Or more likely you took that directly from the one of the many neo-nazi/KKK websites you have bookmarked.

How much more of this racist bull**** is this bitch going to be allowed post?

 

[fist_mlrs]

1 Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Prov 2:13-14 Who leave the paths of uprightness, to walk in the ways of darkness; Who rejoice to do evil, and delight in the frowardness of the wicked;

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Jn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Hos 13:2 And now they sin more and more, and have made them molten images of their silver, and idols according to their own understanding, all of it the work of the craftsmen: they say of them, Let the men that sacrifice kiss the calves.

2 Tim 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

Psa 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Phil 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

quoting is useless. there is only one major monotheist religion with an infame history of killing "nonbelievers" and "heretics". and it is not islam.

 

[SaraP]

It never ceases to amaze me how certain topics can turn otherwise perfectly intelligent and reasonable people into a rabid mob. Does *anyone* here have the maturity to actually debate points instead of calling names?

1. If you think I'm taking those verses from the Koran out of context, maybe you should prove it instead of just saying so.

2. If you prefer to argue that the verses are largely irrelevant because most moderate Muslims don't believe them...that is true. However, they're still part of the Koran and the hardliners do believe them.

3. Any religion can be twisted to support violence, but with Islam you have to twist it in order to *not* support violence. That is why I consider it a terrorism friendly religion.

4. Does anyone know the meaning of the term "Devil's Advocate"?

 

[fist_mlrs]

you still have not answered the question why history doesn't show all that many islamic nations going rampage and killing or enslaving all heretics they can find (and instead show i quite interesting history of tolerance towards other religions and believes) while christanity is the waste opposit. yet you claim islam being voilent in nature while the bible hast to be twisted to become abused. somehow this doesn't make any sense to me, do you want to tell me the muslims started with twisting their evil religieon right away any in the past centure started to "reactivate" the old lines they forgot just at the same time they were writen into their holy book while the christians were abused by evil beeings (propably jews or muslims) to do bad things but turned good some time ago when they noticed "hey, religion is ment to be peacefull."?

you claim the one religion being voilent unless twisted and anotherone being peacefull unless abused. yet history shows both to be peacefull in nature and only the one you calim to be the peaceloving one being abused to bring pain, war and violence over the world in the past 15 centurys.

i don't see your point.

 

[SaraP]

<snip list of less peaceful quotes from the Bible>

quoting is useless. there is only one major monotheist religion with an infame history of killing "nonbelievers" and "heretics". and it is not islam.

Ah, now we're actually getting somewhere.

Those verses say that unbelievers are sinful and evil, but not a single one of them commands Christians to go kill the unbelievers -- one of them says that unbelievers will die, but that's not the same thing as saying "go forth and smite them!" The verses from the Koran, on the other hand, do command Muslims to kill and subjugate nonbelievers.

you still have not answered the question why history doesn't show all that many islamic nations going rampage and killing or enslaving all heretics they can find (and instead show i quite interesting history of tolerance towards other religions and believes) while christanity is the waste opposit. yet you claim islam being voilent in nature while the bible hast to be twisted to become abused. somehow this doesn't make any sense to me, do you want to tell me the muslims started with twisting their evil religieon right away any in the past centure started to "reactivate" the old lines they forgot just at the same time they were writen into their holy book while the christians were abused by evil beeings (propably jews or muslims) to do bad things but turned good some time ago when they noticed "hey, religion is ment to be peacefull."?

you claim the one religion being voilent unless twisted and anotherone being peacefull unless abused. yet history shows both to be peacefull in nature and only the one you calim to be the peaceloving one being abused to bring pain, war and violence over the world in the past 15 centurys.

i don't see your point.

The key question is whether a religion is characterized by what it teaches or by what the majority of its adherents actually believe and do.

My position is that a religion is defined by its doctrines; hence, any religion that teaches "Go forth and smite the evil unbelievers!" is violent in nature regardless of what proportion of its nominal followers actually go and smite. The point is that they're *supposed* to; deviation from that is a perversion of the religion, whether it goes in a bad direction (Christians going off and smiting instead of loving their enemies) or in a good one (Muslims playing nice with other religions instead of smiting them).

 

[Freon]

SaraP Islam is defined by what YOU think of it. The Koran can be interpreted differently by everybody. It's not an order with preachers and a pope. You usually learn it by yourself or with your familly, and most often, you adapt the religion to your believes. Only the most stupid ones find violence in it (guess you're in the lot), otherwise it's pretty peaceful and tolerant. As it was posted before it is also stated that muslins should respect other people religion. Islam was "founded" after the other big monotheist religions and they never intended to replace them but live with them.

About the religious war part, christians are just as bad, but then again it's just a matter of interpretation. Muslins once invade many countries and brought art, mathematics, medicine and many other good things with them. A few centuries later, the Christians decided to turn them all back since they had no use for them p) which resulted in lots of death and destruction.

 

[fist_mlrs]

"they are evil sinfull beings with no heart" and "kill them" have exactly the same result if applied to the masses. i am an atheist. i have never read the bible. i can only quote what i find in google, yet i know there are quite a few verses in the bible wich describe how god and his believers smash the evil nonbelievers and sinners. because of whom poor ol'e noah had to build his arch? because of these evil sinners who were responsible for god killing allmost all humans. yet calling somebody an evil sinner won't make ppl want to do something to "fix" the problem? history proves this untrue.

and i stand by my point. quoting parts of these books don't prove anything. history does. and history clearly shows one of both religions questioned being abused for terror and the other one showing a much more tollerant and educated way to do things. you know which religion punished and murdered its educated men and burned heretics? i do.

My position is that a religion is defined by its doctrines; hence, any religion that teaches "Go forth and smite the evil unbelievers!" is violent in nature regardless of what proportion of its nominal followers actually go and smite. The point is that they're *supposed* to; deviation from that is a perversion of the religion, whether it goes in a bad direction (Christians going off and smiting instead of loving their enemies) or in a good one (Muslims playing nice with other religions instead of smiting them).

your logic is just plain wrong. you claim that both christianity and islam have been abused. this far i can agree. but acording to you the reason why islam has a peacefull and tollerant history is because it was abused to be good and tollerate ppl who do not obbey the leaders of the islamic nation. this doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[spm1138]

Frankly, the Bible bores me ****less.

I cannot be bothered trawling through it looking for the good bits.

But that's OK because this website has done it for me:
http://www.evilbible.com/

It always amazes me how many times this “God” orders the killing of innocent people even after the Ten Commandments said “Thou shall not kill”. For example, God kills 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people (1 Chronicles 21). God also orders the destruction of 60 cities so that the Israelites can live there. He orders the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value (Deuteronomy 3). He orders another attack and the killing of “all the living creatures of the city: men and women, young, and old, as well as oxen sheep, and asses” (Joshua 6). In Judges 21, He orders the murder of all the people of Jabesh-gilead, except for the virgin girls who were taken to be forcibly raped and married. When they wanted more virgins, God told them to hide alongside the road and when they saw a girl they liked, kidnap her and forcibly rape her and make her your wife! Just about every other page in the Old Testament has God killing somebody! In 2 Kings 10:18-27, God orders the murder of all the worshipers of a different god in their very own church! In total God kills 371,186 people directly and orders another 1,862,265 people murdered.

 

[})FA|Snake]

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth of the people of the Book, until they pay the jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued." (Sura 9:29)

The funny thing is that not only is this quote devoid of context you've actually completely misinterpreted the quote, you should probably learn all the words of a quote before you post racist drivel. Yes it says fight the unbelievers, but it says specificly to show them mercy and once they stop fighting to leave alone, additionaly it says to leaves Christians and Jews completely alone (people of the book refers to all who recognize abraham as a prophet of god). Jizya refers to a modest tribute if I remember correctly. When a country fell to a muslim army all citizens were given the oppurunity peacefully convert, otherwise they would have to pay a modest tribute and then be allowed to practice their faith (jews and christians were exempt).

After the muslim empire unified the middle east it was followed by the longest period of peace in human history, while the christians were threatening to burn scientists at the stake muslims were unlocking the ancient knowledge of the greeks along with making vast strides in mathmatics astronomy and philosophy (yes muslims allowed debate about the nature of the universe and their religon, I am suddenly missing the name of the muslim writer but his famous line from his book is "how long shall I lay brick upon the face of the sea", this was spoken about following the tenents of islam).

Sound opressive? When the pope declared the first crusade the christian crusaders murdered every civillian they found and burned whatever they couldn't take for themselves, resulting in one of the worst massacres in human history during the fall of Jerusalem (might have the wrong city but i think it was Jerusalem)

 

[})FA|Snake]

damn, triple insta-posted

In addition to my above post you didn't even bother to look up the word "jihad", it does not mean holy war, it means "eternal struggle". It refers to every muslim's internal stuggle between good and evil, it is also construed to mean the external battle against evil. With the Christians coming in in slaughtering everyone I wouldn't call it a stretch to say they were in a fight against evil either.

Modern day muslim political leaders have abused the word to try to rally support for their causes

 

[jaunty]

I submit into evidence the entire book of revelations, in which all non believers end up dying at the closure of Armageddon. Stick that in your fucking peace pipe and smoke it you stupid bitch.

How can you even compare a misinterpreted word (jihad) taken out of context to a 12th of the Bible saying all the heathens are going to spontaneously combust when God decides it's time in terms of violence.

God I hope you die at the hands of some sort of christian terrorist. You'd better pray to your man in the clouds that this thread isn't still going in 5 hours time when I get home, because by Christ I'm gonna write up a post that'll make you wish you were never baptised.