TIL from R-Todd Akin that if truely raped women can't get pregnant

[TWD]

I do not dispute your explanation of the scientific process. What I dispute is your idea of silencing those who disagree with those conclusions. People are entitled to believe whatever they want, using whatever reasoning they want. They also have just as much of a right as you do to engage in public discourse with those ideas, even in congress. Congressmen are there to represent people, and if enough people agree with their views they should be in congress. Facts should be able to stand on their own in the court of public opinion. They don't need to be coddled by silencing opposition.

 

[ambershee]

Congressmen are there to represent people, and if enough people agree with their views they should be in congress.

Catering to the lowest common moron might get votes, but it doesn't make for progress. When there are a large number of people who happily remain blissfully ignorant of the fundamentals of how something works, they shouldn't get a say in how it's managed.

 

[Zxanphorian]

I do not dispute your explanation of the scientific process. What I dispute is your idea of silencing those who disagree with those conclusions. People are entitled to believe whatever they want, using whatever reasoning they want. They also have just as much of a right as you do to engage in public discourse with those ideas, even in congress. Congressmen are there to represent people, and if enough people agree with their views they should be in congress. Facts should be able to stand on their own in the court of public opinion. They don't need to be coddled by silencing opposition.

The issue here is not general disagreement. People are entitled to whatever they want to believe, for better or for worse, for truth or for falsities. The issue isn't even the participation in public discourse. The issue here is the effects on public policy, which in turn affects all of us. Fundamentally wrong views on well-proved facts shouldn't have a say in public policy.

Take creationism/"'intelligent' design" for instance. Many people via representatives in state/federal legislatures want this to be taught in science class as an alternative "theory" to the well-known and well-supported Evolution, which surpasses the qualifications of being a theory at this point. But "intelligent design" is merely Christian dogma of creationism, and not a scientific theory as it is billed. Surely this is the will of the people so it is all right. Right?

Teaching false views on scientific fact is one of the most damaging and dangerous things we can do as a nation. Especially damaging to young kids who shape the future of the country.

You're right, facts should be able to stand on their own in public opinion. But they don't. The United States has the least percentage of it's population view Evolution as scientific fact than the rest of the developed nations. And for a nation who is supposed to pride itself on it's scientific prowess, it is quite shameful. Other nations are laughing at us for it.

Catering to the lowest common moron might get votes, but it doesn't make for progress. When there are a large number of people who happily remain blissfully ignorant of the fundamentals of how something works, they shouldn't get a say in how it's managed.

Exactly. This guy should be stripped from his membership of the fucking SCIENCE committee. Do I want someone dictate the future of scientific policy in this country who does not have a grasp on fundamental scientific truths about things like woman's physiology? And along with other people with other things such as Evolution and Global Climate Change and the like? Hell no I do not!



And I should remind us that he is currently a Representative, but he is running for the Senate. The Senate is an institution who is supposed to be the more academic and more learned branch of Congress. The founders were smart in making our legislature bicameral in that sense. And Akin proves time and time again that he is not qualified to be a senator in that sense.




But let me ask you folks. If well-known and well-documented scientific fact is not what we decide is the truth, then what other 'truth' do we use? The answer is simple: nothing. No other viable alternatives exist.

 

[TWD]

But let me ask you folks. If well-known and well-documented scientific fact is not what we decide is the truth, then what other 'truth' do we use?

It is not our job to answer this question for society as a whole. That is for each individual to decide for themselves.

For your example of evolution I'd say yes. If the people of that school district agree that it should be tough then it should be taught. Whether or not evolution is fact is completely irrelevant. Scientific fact doesn't trump the constitution. Scientific fact doesn't give you the right to force your view on the rest of an unwilling society. This isn't battletech. This is the real world where people will disagree on everything. By saying some should be shut out of the conversation, we are trampling on the fundamental rights of man.

 

[phil]

I pity you TWD I really do. :\

 

[TWD]

Feel sorry for yourself Phil. We don't need to have another discussion about trolling do we?

 

[phil]

Feel sorry for yourself Phil. We don't need to have another discussion about trolling do we?

1. You're not a moderator, admin, or anyone of importance so keep the back seat moderation to the report button.

2. Nope it's honest pity that someone could be so willfully ignorant of the world around him. You will never really know how rare and wonderful all (everything) of this is. You honestly think scientific theory is just some idea some jack ass pieced together in his spare time and that consensus in a society nullifies it. You really really think that it's not a troll, a put on, or baiting. It's sad and I say that with complete sincerity and not a ounce of spite.

 

[TWD]

Then you clearly do not understand one iota of what I said. I never said anything about science being just a theory. I only stated that it is just as fallible and easy to manipulate as the rest of society. Even though I agree with the accuracy of most of the science stated in this thread, I understand that it is wrong to force that on the rest of society. People must choose to accept it on their own. Progress cannot come by taking over the education system against the people's will, and shutting out non believes. That is not progress. That is tyranny.

 

[gopostal]

If I may, can I point out something? Evolution is not anti-biblical per se. Only young earth creationists would have issue with evolution. Me personally, it doesn't bother my faith at all. Life came forth on the earth almost as soon as it was feasible and very quickly the earth was literally packed with life. That's great too because without it we wouldn't be here. We depend on this biological heritage for our lives to be possible. You couldn't grow crops without dirt, etc.

Let's remember one thing though: evolution is a theory. It's the best possible answer to the question but it does remain unproven. Nowhere in nature has information ever been created, only reproduced, and that's a serious problem for evolution to answer.

Liken this to another theory commonly accepted as fact: Einstein's theory of relativity. No other theory in science has been so rigorously tested as relativity and not been granted status as fact. I see you all rolling your eyes, "Don't tell me he doesn't believe in relativity!"... I do think that's a valid scientific fact, but have you guys forgotten how fast mainline scientists threw it out the window when that announcement was made last year that particles faster than light were found? "Confirmation!" was even published in Nature.

We all know how that turned out. It pays to be conservative with theory but watching so many scientists dump the laws of relativity because some sexy alternative popped up told me how 'convinced' they really are.

 

[phil]

Then you clearly do not understand one iota of what I said. I never said anything about science being just a theory. I only stated that it is just as fallible and easy to manipulate as the rest of society. Even though I agree with the accuracy of most of the science stated in this thread, I understand that it is wrong to force that on the rest of society. People must choose to accept it on their own. Progress cannot come by taking over the education system against the people's will, and shutting out non believes. That is not progress. That is tyranny.

An uneducated society is not a free society.

and it's not "forcing something down you're throat" it's telling you the truth as best understood at the time. Truth doesn't need to be comfortable in science it does have to be (as) accurate (possible) and scrutable.

 

[phil]

If I may, can I point out something? Evolution is not anti-biblical per se. Only young earth creationists would have issue with evolution. Me personally, it doesn't bother my faith at all. Life came forth on the earth almost as soon as it was feasible and very quickly the earth was literally packed with life. That's great too because without it we wouldn't be here. We depend on this biological heritage for our lives to be possible. You couldn't grow crops without dirt, etc.

Let's remember one thing though: evolution is a theory. It's the best possible answer to the question but it does remain unproven. Nowhere in nature has information ever been created, only reproduced, and that's a serious problem for evolution to answer.

Liken this to another theory commonly accepted as fact: Einstein's theory of relativity. No other theory in science has been so rigorously tested as relativity and not been granted status as fact. I see you all rolling your eyes, "Don't tell me he doesn't believe in relativity!"... I do think that's a valid scientific fact, but have you guys forgotten how fast mainline scientists threw it out the window when that announcement was made last year that particles faster than light were found? "Confirmation!" was even published in Nature.

We all know how that turned out. It pays to be conservative with theory but watching so many scientists dump the laws of relativity because some sexy alternative popped up told me how 'convinced' they really are.

You don't understand what a scientific theory is. Read this: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/528971/scientific-theory

Also evolution does not cover the origin of life only the origin of diverse species.

 

[TWD]

An uneducated society is not a free society.

True, but what you seek to do does not lead to an educated society. People will not be educated against their will.

 

[phil]

True, but what you seek to do does not lead to an educated society. People will not be educated against their will.

Really? http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d08/tables/dt08_165.asp

 

[gopostal]

You don't understand what a scientific theory is. Read this: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/528971/scientific-theory

From that link:

A theory may be characterized as a postulational system (a set of premises) from which empirical laws are deducible as theorems.

That entire page reiterates my statement. There's a reason that you know of the Law of the Conservation of Energy or Newton's Laws (for example) and why you don't reference the 'Law of Relativity'. It's supported by experimentation but there's still the chance it's wrong (well not perfectly right to be more precise). Ergo that's why it told me a lot that so many physicists jumped on the "Let's wait and see but I'm pretty intrigued by this faster-than-light results" instead of dismissing it outright like perpetual motion. Evolutionary biology falls into this same category. At any given time you are one or two major finds away from rewriting the 'rules'.

Also evolution does not cover the origin of life only the origin of diverse species.

Which is what I discussed.

 

[dragonfliet]

If I may, can I point out something? Evolution is not anti-biblical per se. Only young earth creationists would have issue with evolution. Me personally, it doesn't bother my faith at all. Life came forth on the earth almost as soon as it was feasible and very quickly the earth was literally packed with life. That's great too because without it we wouldn't be here. We depend on this biological heritage for our lives to be possible. You couldn't grow crops without dirt, etc.

Let's remember one thing though: evolution is a theory. It's the best possible answer to the question but it does remain unproven. Nowhere in nature has information ever been created, only reproduced, and that's a serious problem for evolution to answer.

Liken this to another theory commonly accepted as fact: Einstein's theory of relativity. No other theory in science has been so rigorously tested as relativity and not been granted status as fact. I see you all rolling your eyes, "Don't tell me he doesn't believe in relativity!"... I do think that's a valid scientific fact, but have you guys forgotten how fast mainline scientists threw it out the window when that announcement was made last year that particles faster than light were found? "Confirmation!" was even published in Nature.

We all know how that turned out. It pays to be conservative with theory but watching so many scientists dump the laws of relativity because some sexy alternative popped up told me how 'convinced' they really are.

You are fundamentally misunderstanding things.

For instance. The theory of relativity wasn't tossed out by anyone. Just as Newton's Universal Gravitation theory wasn't tossed out. In fact, Newton's Gravitation works REALLY WELL, but it just wasn't perfect, hence we have the way that gravity works in Einstein's Theory of General Relativity. If there are pieces of Einstein's magnum opus that are overturned, it doesn't mean that his work was for naught, because it has been proven thousands and thousands and thousands of times to be an extremely accurate predictor of events, much like Newton before him, and any tweaks to the theory will be just that: tweaks.

Evolution falls into that same category. It is entirely possibly that we will have some sort of breakthrough which gets rid of the current model for a new one, but it is going to do largely the same things that have already been tested, just slightly better. Evolution is a fact, it has been proven a great number of times. The theory of evolution that we currently hold is a theory, well supported with decades of evidence in numerous fields, and while it could very well be improved upon in the future, we know that the vast majority of our understanding of it will remain essentially the same.

 

[Jacks:Revenge]

Jason pretty much covered it but I was in the middle of typing this so I'll just pile on.

Let's remember one thing though: evolution is a theory. It's the best possible answer to the question but it does remain unproven. Nowhere in nature has information ever been created, only reproduced, and that's a serious problem for evolution to answer.

sorry but you're wrong.

evolution is a theory like gravity is a theory.
it has been proven. there is no debate.

gravity is a fact. evolution is a fact. it happened whether you like it or not.
but apparently you're confused about the implications of evolution.

evolution never intended to answer the question of "why?" or "from where?"
evolution answers the question of "how." it is undeniable. it is in the fossil record, it is consistent with the innumerable theories of biology that preceded it, it is observable and reproducible.

it does not "remain unproven."

We all know how that turned out. It pays to be conservative with theory but watching so many scientists dump the laws of relativity because some sexy alternative popped up told me how 'convinced' they really are.

you don't seem to be up on your science news.

no one has abandoned relativity.
if you take a physics and/or astronomy class in college right now you will be taught relativity. the majority of your education will be based on relativity. just because some scientists are branching out to String theory and other wild forms of quantum mechanics doesn't mean that relativity has been dumped.

 

[ambershee]

People will not be educated against their will.

Indeed.

Those who refuse to be educated shouldn't be placed in a position of authority where they can ill-educate others.

 

[Vaskadar]

Looks like we have a 'fundamental' misunderstanding here.

Nyuk nyuk nyuk
[m]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&v=67_FB6-gGZs&NR=1[/m]

This senator is what some of you sound like when I read your posts aloud. This will be my last post in this thread. Carry on.

 

[gopostal]

sorry but you're wrong.

evolution is a theory like gravity is a theory.
it has been proven. there is no debate.

gravity is a fact. evolution is a fact. it happened whether you like it or not.
but apparently you're confused about the implications of evolution.

it does not "remain unproven."

you don't seem to be up on your science news.

You are making a serious mistake that has caused science untold misery over it's history. No effect is self-explaining. Gravity is a theory because we can measure it, predict it, but we don't know the how or why. That's still very much up in the air and could change fundamentally with a couple of major discoveries. The CERN data for the Higgs backed up that the current model is incomplete, and that means that gravity probably belongs in there somewhere we have yet to work out.

Evolution is the same thing. We see the results, it makes sense, but it's not been directly observed AND there are still some major problems to be worked out like the problems of information and needed time. Now none of those are deal breakers for me and it won't surprise me to see them overcome but for now evolution remains a theory because of it.

This will be my last post in this thread. Carry on.

That's a shame. I like your style.

 

[Kyllian]

God damn I wish I could find a certain article
Bacterial cultures were being observed and eventually one set developed the ability to metabolize vitamin C
That's adaptation, which falls under evolution and was observed

Observable evolution is simply harder to observe in larger, more complex life because it takes longer for changes to appear