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Weapon suggestions.

Discussion in 'New Version Suggestions' started by Lidzsvars, Feb 12, 2005.

  1. GalZohar

    GalZohar New Member

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    I want inf back... america's army is just not the same thing and all other games are hideously unrealistic :(
     
  2. Snakeye

    Snakeye Mk82HD

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    Two options:
    a.) Download INF2.9, install, play
    b.) Wait for Ground Branch and pray every fuckin' night it will be as good as people hope.
     
  3. Lethal Dosage

    Lethal Dosage Serial Rapis...uh, Thread Killer

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    Is that a leak?
     
  4. Snakeye

    Snakeye Mk82HD

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    :confused: leak?
     
  5. spm1138

    spm1138 Irony Is

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    That is totally a leak. Jsonedecker said on the super secret donators forum that Ground Branch would be as good as people hope.
     
  6. GalZohar

    GalZohar New Member

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    What is Ground Branch? Mod? Game?
     
  7. Snakeye

    Snakeye Mk82HD

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    In which case I would need to be psychic to actually leak this information since I don't have access to said forum; I actually only recently started to check their forums again.

    GB is a game in development and is more or less expected by some around here (including to a certain extend myself) to be something like a successor to Infiltration. You'll find a thread dedicated to GB in the Off-Topic section and you can also visit the webiste/forums of Blackfoot Studios - the development team of GB.

    Did I mention Beppo is part of their dev team?
     
  8. Lethal Dosage

    Lethal Dosage Serial Rapis...uh, Thread Killer

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    Well considering how confidently you said that it will be as good as people hope, i was hoping you had some insider info which gave you the impression that it would be beyond awesome.

    I too hope it'll be INF's successor, and with beppo on the team i hope it at least comes damn close, otherwise i cna see him getting a lot of angry letters from INFers (which would total about 5, judging by how many veterans still post).
     
  9. Carpetsmoker

    Carpetsmoker Nexus-6

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    I'm pretty confident it will be awesome, you don't need to be a donator to see that (Although it does help), just browse on the BlackFoot Studios forums and you'll know it too.
     
  10. Snakeye

    Snakeye Mk82HD

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    If I may quote
    As possible additional information: I am an atheist, so praying is not exactly the same as being confident in my world :)

    While I do have comparingly high hopes for GB, I definetly will wait for the game to see if it lives up to expectations. I've had a fair share of games that where hyped, be it by media or by forums, and turned out delivering a lot less than was promised. I'm not saying this will be the case with GB - I'm desperately hoping it won't be, but I will not rule out the possibility it does go the overhyped way.

    On a sidenote, it seems we found a better use for the weapon suggestion thread :D
     
  11. Lethal Dosage

    Lethal Dosage Serial Rapis...uh, Thread Killer

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    Atheism has nothing to do wiht it, no one said you had to pray to God, i'm personally praying to Beppo and the GB devs.

    P.S. Any hardcore bible-bangers out there that are offended that i pray to a "false" god... come get me! :lol:
     
  12. Gnam

    Gnam Member

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    You know, it occurred to me recently that for all the community's pleading for battle rifles, the battle rifles which eventually got into INF were more like extra 5.56mm models than true battle rifles. Characteristically in terms of function, a battle rifle is supposed to exhibit extra penetration and damage in exchange for much heavier recoil (too heavy for effective automatic fire). However, in my experience the G3 in INF barely recoiled more than any of the 5.56mm rifles and the damage was the same as all the others as well (usually 2 hit kill). There may have been an increase in penetration, though that's harder to notice. In any case, I never had any trouble using the G3 just like all the other assault rifles, even spraying automatic fire at mid distances was no trouble.

    By comparison, I think what was more expected, was an INF PSG-1 with iron sights and a full auto option. Recoil on the PSG-1 from the beginning was clearly heavier than the other rifles - firing a single shot from the scope, your point of aim clearly kicked up much higher than shooting a SIG or M16 through an ACOG. Also, by v2.9, the PSG-1 killed with one shot to the upper body. Why would a 7.62x51mm from a PSG-1 kill in one hit while 7.62x51mm from a G3 kill in kill in two hits shot to the same location.

    Call it potentially unbalanced for gameplay, but I think realistically speaking, damage and recoil for the G3 clearly should have been much closer to that of the PSG-1. Furthermore, from a balance perspective, I think the one shot kills would be balanced, even with irons and a full-auto option, as long as the recoil is potent enough - if it's almost impossible to hit something with rapid fire it will trade off with the damage.

    I think all this is consistent with what can be observed in real life. I've never personally fired a battle rifle, but by all accounts the recoil was clearly too heavy for practical automatic fire. This is why the assault rifles was introduced and why rifles like the M14 and L1A1 were issued with the fire selector disabled. The recoil differences are clearly visible even if you watch shooters on youtube - of course the visible recoil in the hands of different shooters varies, but consistently the barrels of 5.56mm rifles jump scarcely an inch even in the hands of newbie female shooters and children. Meanwhile watching .308 rifles, even in the hands of experienced shooters, the barrels jump several inches with every shot and take a second to retrain on the target. I have seen some inexperienced men shoot full auto and almost drop the rifle on the floor, with the barrel cocked 90 degrees upward!

    Anyway, I think if there was one shortcoming in the realism of INF, that was it. The battle rifles just weren't portrayed that accurately. Granted, most other games don't get it right either. Just about the only game I can think of that does is Red Orchestra - while the recoil of SMG's is obviously badly exaggerated, the balance of STG-44 vs the SVT-40 and G43 is spot on. If I were to change anything about Inf as it stands, this issue would be it.

    After all, the main reason everyone wanted battle rifles so badly was cause of the overabundance of 5.56mm rifles. However, what's the point if the battle rifles don't function any differently than the 5.56mm rifles?
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2008
  13. Snakeye

    Snakeye Mk82HD

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    Uhm, you may want to change the plural form of battle rifle to singular, since the FAL clearly does higher damage than the G3 and has a pretty high recoil - judging from videos too high IMO.

    Actually the G3 does clearly more damage than 5.56s - 55 as opposed to 40 from a M16 - both values taken from the ballistic classes. The FAL does 68, the M14DMR 67 and the PSG 100. Since there are some odd multipliers around in game depending on range and hit location the FAL is a (nearly) always one hit kill on anything below Level3a body armor. Wether or not the relative damage to a 5.56 is correct - taking into account standard 7.62 doesn't fragment (IIRC) and yaws rather late - is something else.

    So if you want battle rifle feeling take along a FAL - once you get used to the unpractical rear sights and find out that 3rd bursts are rather easy to achieve (and get into target at closer ranges) and the accuracy is comparingly good at high ranges you may find the FAL is better than it seems at first glance.

    On a sidenote: why won't this thread fucking die?
     
  14. Carpetsmoker

    Carpetsmoker Nexus-6

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    Oh no, IT'S ALIVE!
     
  15. Lethal Dosage

    Lethal Dosage Serial Rapis...uh, Thread Killer

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    Lol, decent argument Gnam, I agree that the recoil and damage on INF's G3 is rather underpowered for "balance", personally i'd rather it be upped to something similar to the FAL (actually i'd prefer very slightly higher damage). Between the low recoil, decent accuracy, and extremely easy to use sights, the G3 does kinda make up for it's underpowered-ness. The FAL has long been a favourite weapon for me (but i prefer the L1a1), and of course i've always wanted one in any game, but i did kinda feel let down when they added it ingame because of the poorly modelled rear sight and the rather strange skin. It's because of the rather small peep sight on that ungainly plate (instead of a folding post) that make the FAL ingame rather situational and sometimes difficult to use. The best ways i've found is automatic for close range where you just have to spot the target and place the "plate" over the target, or for 60m+ long range (by game standards) work, where you can take more time to actually aim and pop off individual shots.
     
  16. Gnam

    Gnam Member

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    Yeah, I didn't take the FAL and M14DMR into account too much in my argument for a few reasons:

    1) Sentry Studios didn't make them so they aren't necessarily consistent with the rest of their game design
    2) The G3, FAL, and M14DMR, as you pointed out, aren't consistent with each other
    3) I haven't messed around with the community weapons in years, as last time I installed INF, I got lazy and only installed SS bonus weapons. Therefore my memory of the specifics are hazy
    4) TBH though my memory is hazy I remember something different just feeling "off" in each of Inf's BR's even if it wasn't necessarily the damage or recoil

    I also don't really recall the recoil on either the FAL or M14DMR being that high but again, my memory is hazy. My post was directed more at the G3 since that was an official part of the game. In the end though I think if the PSG-1 is going to do 100 damage, the battle rifles should as well - the PSG might be firing match bullets but does that really make up for 45-32 extra damage? I think not.

    In terms of recoil, we don't have exact numbers for the existing values as they stand, but my arguement is that recoil of various calibers, according to real life, should in-game follow these proportions:

    5.56mm, 5.45mm - 1x recoil
    7.62x39mm, 6.8mm - 2x recoil
    7.62x51mm - 4x recoil

    That might seem extreme, but most people I've talked to who've fired both 7.62x39mm and either 5.56 or 5.45 report about double the muzzle lift, and if you watch videos of people firing these weapons, though it's fuzzy when 2 different shooters are involved as examples for 2 different weapons, that's generally the proportions that are observable. Compared to 7.62x51, it's the same deal, look at people shooting those rifles and you'll see the muzzle jumping at least 3-4x as high with each shot as with a .223.

    As a side note, speaking of the community weapons, consistency, and recoil...I know the AKM has been beaten to death but one of the things I always felt was off about it was that the recoil also seemed too light. I think the INF AKMSU nailed the recoil of 7.62x39mm pretty good - even though it's supposed to be a lighter weapon than the full length rifle, I think that amount was pretty appropriate, whereas the AKM just felt like a reskinned 5.56mm.

    On the other hand of course, since it's generally be concluded that there is not AKMSU IRL, it should have been an AK-74su with about half the recoil.

    Yeah something about the FAL always irked me too. I think the G3 had the best model of the bunch, but the weakest implementation. The other 2 were a little more powerful, but something was still off about 'em.

    TBH I think the best representation of semi-auto full-power rifles I've seen in a game is still Red Orchestra's SVT-40 and G43. Change the model/skin of those to FAL, G3, and/or M14, add a fire selector (where applicable), and put it in INF, and I'd be happy. Every other game I've seen, the battle rifles always feel like re-skinned assault rifles, and that goes for INF, RS3 Ravenshield, Vegas 1+2, COD4 and 5...pretty much everything except for maybe the M1 Garand in the first 2 Brothers in Arms games (though that was still marred by mandatory 2 hit kills and shoddy hit detection.)

    Proper .30 cal rifles are really hard to come by in games. Most recently, the ones in COD5 and BIA3 really were travesties.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2008
  17. Snakeye

    Snakeye Mk82HD

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    Depends on how you define recoil; the common way I think is to use the momentum, which would make a 7.62x51 about 2x the recoil of a 5.56 not taking into account that a rifle fireing the 7.62x51 is usually heavier - resulting in less felt recoil. Since a whole load of other factors (i.e. rifle design) actually lead to the felt recoil I doubt there's any way to truly reflect a weapons recoil in game.

    Wrong. The designation itself might not be correct, but Arsenal of Bulgaria DID make a Krinkov in 7.62x39 that looked (nearly) exactly like the AKS74U - although their current models don't.

    While your points are valid (and most have been brought up before) there's no real point to discuss them since:
    1.) Inf is dead (development wise) since SS stopped.
    2.) Anything not done by SS but by the community does have a different "feeling" because people tried to do things right - or how they thought is right, but there is no general "right" in a topic involving that many uncertainities.
    3.) Inf always has been balanced to "improve" gameplay - that's why a G3 does about half the damage of a PSG and has less recoil, although logically the damage should be about the same and the PSG should have less (felt) recoil due to its heavy weight.

    Now let's lay this thread to rest - where it belongs..
     

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