Weapon Balance Thread

[Naib]

Nice post PRG

fixing balance should be a never ending process to some extent as people find new ways to play.

Very true. One of the things to keep in mind with all online games is the devs will never be able to anticipate exactly how the players will play their game. Gamers will always go for the tactic that gives them the best resaults. One of the sad parts of LE closing down is we no longer had patches to adjust the balance as the play style developed

FranKly, I think it should be swapped out for a minigun/chaingun with a weak primary and withering secondary that's only accurate out to flamer range. This switch was actually first proposed during the U2XMP beta. Also the lack of a hit scan weapon really hurts the gunner.

Doing this would remove the gunner ability to boost himself on low grav maps. But on the whole, I think the trade off would be worth it. Although the flamer primary can do huge amounts of damge, you can't see what you are firing at.

One other point to remember, instant hit weapons like the sniper rifle, the pistol, and the shotgun primary are very dependant on your ping. Peoples aims with them are likly to get a lot better on the UT engine.

 

[Dragon_X]

I totally agree with what prg said, I play as ranger myself and even i think the pistol has to much of a range -_-

 

[Bishop F Gantry]

Nice post PRG



Very true. One of the things to keep in mind with all online games is the devs will never be able to anticipate exactly how the players will play their game. Gamers will always go for the tactic that gives them the best resaults. One of the sad parts of LE closing down is we no longer had patches to adjust the balance as the play style developed



Doing this would remove the gunner ability to boost himself on low grav maps. But on the whole, I think the trade off would be worth it. Although the flamer primary can do huge amounts of damge, you can't see what you are firing at.

One other point to remember, instant hit weapons like the sniper rifle, the pistol, and the shotgun primary are very dependant on your ping. Peoples aims with them are likly to get a lot better on the UT engine.

Rangers could get tripmines and Gunners could get Takkra deffensive balls instead, would give the gunners some better deffensive abilities, and they could harass Rangers with them

 

[.sl0w.]

Doing this would remove the gunner ability to boost himself on low grav maps. But on the whole, I think the trade off would be worth it. Although the flamer primary can do huge amounts of damge, you can't see what you are firing at.

Prim. Flamethrower is quite ok ( imho ), first choice vs. hackers. Only thing that could need a tweak would be a longer range and more visibility.
Second. flamethrower could be inflammable and more like fire-wall that acutaly does some damage...

just some thoughts....

 

[W0RF]

What if the prim were a chaingun and the alt-fire was the thrower? Either way, I don't think any improvements to the flamer should deprive gunners of a valuable melee weapon.

 

[Big Moe]

I like playing as the gunner because I like the big booming cannon which I make good use of, but its pretty sad that I dont have a real effective counter to a fast moving ranger that runs up to me and takes me out with four or five pistol shots. That is total BS, I cant really hit him with my cannon, I have to aim at his feet and thats not too effective, the flame thrower is a joke and easily evaded, my only hope at close is the incendiary grenade which I often end up eating myself. I think a good fix would be to make the secondary in the flame thrower a direct mid ranging stream like the old pulse gun in UT instead of the wet fart thrower that is currently is, it would allow the gunner to live up to his damn name and not be just a sitting duck for the wily ranger.

 

[Dandeloreon1984]

i know that i play as gunner(for defence), and i use the flammer when i really want to annoy the opponents, it has weak hitscan, because i get an headshot when i hit a person head on with an flamethrower shot... and i use an ranger(on offense) also as much, i think the pistol is a little too accurate, but at least i know htat it will have the same problems in utxmp for me... i know how to aim, and camping is not an issue... and on a small note, the tank is an very devasating weapon if you know where to place it... after all the tank can make shots like this easily(look at 2 images i have attached)... but i would not change the tank at all, because after all, it can't be hidden very well.

 

[fireball]

Rangers could get tripmines and Gunners could get Takkra deffensive balls instead, would give the gunners some better deffensive abilities, and they could harass Rangers with them

I already mentioned that

 

[PRG]

Nice post PRG



Very true. One of the things to keep in mind with all online games is the devs will never be able to anticipate exactly how the players will play their game. Gamers will always go for the tactic that gives them the best resaults. One of the sad parts of LE closing down is we no longer had patches to adjust the balance as the play style developed.

Exactly, and tie that in with the current patch being slightly out of balance in the first place.

Doing this would remove the gunner ability to boost himself on low grav maps. But on the whole, I think the trade off would be worth it. Although the flamer primary can do huge amounts of damge, you can't see what you are firing at.

One other point to remember, instant hit weapons like the sniper rifle, the pistol, and the shotgun primary are very dependant on your ping. Peoples aims with them are likly to get a lot better on the UT engine.

Losing the low grav boost thing would kinda of suck TBH. However it's a trade off. Then again, That's only ever been truly useful on one map that many people detest: Freefall. Raptor has even been quoted as saying it's going to be left out of UTXMP. It'll get ported however to be sure in the interest of complete by someone(I'm planning on it actually .)

And yes, hit scan weapons are very dependent on ping. However, the gunners lack of one can be a disadvantage in the areas I outlined in the previous post.

What if the prim were a chaingun and the alt-fire was the thrower? Either way, I don't think any improvements to the flamer should deprive gunners of a valuable melee weapon.

Hrmmm interesting, kind of like the scene where Ripley rescues Newt in Aliens. Also the idea is for the secondary fire to be able to take the place of the flamer. One thing that needs to be addressed to. The people that use the flamer in behind view, I was also thinking a weapon swap could kill that exploit without removing behind view for anyone else.

 

[Apathy]

Whatever you WERE thinking, it wasn't that. There's a thread over in the XMP board for you to bitch about how much more l33t you are than all the other gunners.

Where did I ever say I was better than anyone else?
I simply stated that I had no problems with rocket lock, never have, all you have to do it get the crosshair to move over the target, simple really.

I think someone needs to lay off the sauce...

 

[W0RF]

Apparently, because I've camped my crosshair on the target, I've done the "wave" method, the "dust" method, just about everything, and lock-on is simply a pain in the ass.

Maybe it's a netcode issue that will disappear in the new engine.

Also, I think it's confirmed that rockets lock on to drivers and not the vehicles they are in. I think that should change.

 

[Blackhound]

I will not take the time to quote anyone, as my post should be clear enough, if the reader bothered to read this thread all the way through.

I agree the gas grenades need a definite adjustment, with armor playing the primary role. Gunners are slow, but they have massive amounts of armor. That sort of tweak would fix the problem of the slow movement vulnerability immediately.

My biggest input will come on the flamethrower. Gunners can easily fly down any back peddling opponent by throwing in a long jump. It's visibility is fine, in my opinion, and I've never had troubles with it in all the time of my playing, and it has, in fact, helped in many situations to provide visual cover. Secondly, the secondary fire of the flamethrower makes it perhaps one of the deadliest weapons in the game, as when properly used, it causes instant death.

I will not say how instant kills are achieved with the Vulcan secondary fire mode, and I'm sure none of the other dedicated Gunners who know how to properly use this fire mode are going to willingly discuss such tricks of the trade in the open, but I am warning now that it's certain death for those who underestimate it in the hands of a skilled user defending bases and artifact nodes. Given it's low visibility, and instant-kill potential, I suggest it be left alone, if not toned down completely.

 

[Naib]

Secondly, the secondary fire of the flamethrower makes it perhaps one of the deadliest weapons in the game, as when properly used, it causes instant death.

I will not say how instant kills are achieved with the Vulcan secondary fire mode, and I'm sure none of the other dedicated Gunners who know how to properly use this fire mode are going to willingly discuss such tricks of the trade in the open

If you mean spraying half a clip in the same spot, then tbh I've had almost no luck with that in a clan game.

In the short time it lasts, you are unlikly to have someone attack. Unless you spend all your time replacing it, which would make you less ready for an attack. And most good rangers will jump to and from the node, barely touching the ground.

 

[Bishop F Gantry]

I will not take the time to quote anyone, as my post should be clear enough, if the reader bothered to read this thread all the way through.

I agree the gas grenades need a definite adjustment, with armor playing the primary role. Gunners are slow, but they have massive amounts of armor. That sort of tweak would fix the problem of the slow movement vulnerability immediately.

My biggest input will come on the flamethrower. Gunners can easily fly down any back peddling opponent by throwing in a long jump. It's visibility is fine, in my opinion, and I've never had troubles with it in all the time of my playing, and it has, in fact, helped in many situations to provide visual cover. Secondly, the secondary fire of the flamethrower makes it perhaps one of the deadliest weapons in the game, as when properly used, it causes instant death.

I will not say how instant kills are achieved with the Vulcan secondary fire mode, and I'm sure none of the other dedicated Gunners who know how to properly use this fire mode are going to willingly discuss such tricks of the trade in the open, but I am warning now that it's certain death for those who underestimate it in the hands of a skilled user defending bases and artifact nodes. Given it's low visibility, and instant-kill potential, I suggest it be left alone, if not toned down completely.

1. That would solve alot of problems for Gunners...

2. The other classes can throw in their long jumps aswell and gunners will only get close enough if the enemy allows it to happen...

3. considering the sheer maintence of said task, and the factors required to pull it of the cons far outweights the pros, the only ones youll be killing with vulcans alt fire are the ones you dont want to kill, while the other just sweeps trough the arti node barely touching the ground, and while your doing your little stunt your completly open for enemy attacks..

 

[Uziel]

Well, no offense PRG, but I’m not going to read all that, but I do understand your point. I guess the idea I was trying to get across is, you can’t please everyone.

Also, I’d rather not have this turn into a Planetside situation, where bickering goes on for months & months. They continually entertain all the complaints from all sides, because they have to. It’s a monthly subscription, while XMP will not be. Even today, I hear the weapon balance is getting close, but there are still complaints from all sides. How long has that game been out & the arguments going?

I can now understand why it needs to be re-tooled, because of being “made from scratch”. I’d just rather not play a game where every month or 2 I have to go into a thread & get in yet ANOTHER argument with people that want to change things, while others do not. That sounds like nothing but a machine that creates animosity towards each other. I do want to get it right for everyone though. :tup:

Thanks for everyone's hard work.

 

[Blackhound]

I've successfully employed the Vulcan alt fire to kill large numbers of attackers, over and over again. Many fall for it almost as often as they do the landmines, and am happy to say it's only once killed a team mate while I've employed it.

The fact that it may be used for defencive purposes, as a kind of trap, also makes it's value higher than most give it credit. The weapon is fast reloading and versitile, quick to fire and maneuver. While defending bases, you're more likely to use the Vulcan effectively in quick, close combat, more often than the Shark. This is why the Vulcan is pretty much perfect how it is. It's fast and heavily damaging, and for it's alt fire and with all traps, you need to monitor them, and if the enemy goes around them, you need to compensate.

I find what people are asking for it to be similar to the requests for the Shark to lock on with ease, and some challenging the fragmentation grenade's usefulness. A weapon's alt fire that requires patience, skill, and proper usage, gets labeled bugged or underpowered in an instant, and people either ask for it to be made unbalanced, or to be replaced outright. People are unwilling to adapt, and more willing to just ask (and in some cases mildly demand) things to be made their way.

In my opinion, going back to the gas grenade topic, I would be and am just as happy playing XMP with them spammed or not spammed. It's not unbalanced in my eyes, i see the other grenades as lacking. I'm a selfish Gunner, and if the Techs get such a large area of effect I want to see the incindeary grenades in XMP back like they were in Unreal 2 single player. People like to complain about the gas grenades, but I feel they just need to cope. Beyond short term annoyances, gas grenade spam has never ruined games for me, because there's always a way to counter it, as there is for all weapons in the game.

To touch on other topics I forgot to in the other post, I do also agree the pistol needs some sort of range drop, or the Assault Rifle's range needs to be bumped up. Back when I played rangers, I'd always pull out the pistol to take down fleeing artifact carriers, as it's excellent at dropping them with headshots at amazing distances. I feel the Assault Rifle should have a slightly lower, but still near as good chance to take someone out at that far.

I need to work on paragraph structure.

 

[Dandeloreon1984]

know what, to help finish this thread off, and get it locked, the weapon balance will be whatever fmi makes it into, but if you can't or don't like it, you should learn to code and remake the balance, that is what i am plannin on doing is making mutators to rebalance the game!

 

[Pawnbroker]

Just a couple things I've observed:

Rifle:
While it does have its uses, skilled Techs will use the shotgun as their primary. Accuracy, damage, and range are all extremely underpowered comparatively.

Shotty:
Curiously long range. It's more effective to plug away at a far off opponent than to rifle him.

Alt shot:
It's fairly slow moving and has a large spread. One-shotting a fully healed and repaired gunner does seem a bit extreme though--maybe have it take 1.25 shots? This only happens on stationary targets, however, where the entire blast/spread hits. Most of the time people are moving around too much for this to come into effect.

Gas:
A good Tech RARELY fires more than one shot. Unless you're in an enclosed area, you're not going to take much damage from it.

Gunner lock:
It's bugged. Make me paint the target or make me hold the lock for x amount of time. Getting locks seems random at times.

Ranger Pistol:
I heard somewhere that its less effective short range than long? Seems a bit backwards if so.

 

[[Lithium]]

I like the weapon balance for the most part.
I wont say much because most people have said it already.
The flamethrower can't go though, I love it, you just have to know when to use it. The opacity of the fire is good too, I've used it to block a rangers view of my body at extreamly long range to some effect. The alt. fire on the flammer is increadably useless though. I once spent several hours just using the alt. flammer and I seriously couldn't think of one 1/2 decent use for it. Aside from unloading an entire clip into one spot it is fairly usless. Makes for a little eye candy though when it lights up though

 

[PRG]

In my opinion, going back to the gas grenade topic, I would be and am just as happy playing XMP with them spammed or not spammed. It's not unbalanced in my eyes, i see the other grenades as lacking. I'm a selfish Gunner, and if the Techs get such a large area of effect I want to see the incindeary grenades in XMP back like they were in Unreal 2 single player. People like to complain about the gas grenades, but I feel they just need to cope. Beyond short term annoyances, gas grenade spam has never ruined games for me, because there's always a way to counter it, as there is for all weapons in the game.

ALL the grenades are right on for the most part actually.. Anything more on any of them would be excessive. The real problem is only the gas grenade and only partially at that. A skilled tech or ranger can relatively easily move away from gas spam. At most, only losing enough to degrade efficiency. For a gunner, this is a suddenly placed immovable wall that needs precious little aim that also functions as a partially smoke screen. Unfortunately, the gunner ends up in the middle of it. If you can't avoid unskilled gas spam as a skilled ranger, well you're not all that skilled. If you can't avoid unskilled gas spam as skilled gunner, well you're just ummm.. (pardon my French) screwed. Pick your deploy point. (Okay, so I'm exaggerating somewhat.)

Well, no offense PRG, but I’m not going to read all that, but I do understand your point. I guess the idea I was trying to get across is, you can’t please everyone.

Hate to flame you but: A post that long is about complicated it is, in fact I even oversimplified it in a few places. And while yes you can't please everyone, don't be mistaken, it is that complicated.