UT-nerfed

[MANIFOLD]

Deepershade:

whatever dood

 

[Israphel]

Manifold, many of us writing in these forums are not flaming you, just disagreeing. I really hope you don't feel that you're being flamed.
The reason why I post on these forums rather than others is because here there is considerably less flaming and people are allowed to express their opinions, whatever they may be.

It shouldn't be a problem that many people only ever play ONS, it's a new gametype and obviously the direction mutliplayer gaming is going. You may not like that, but looked at in the bigger picture, many of us here can remember when CTF was "noob mod" and considered as lightweight compared to DM. Now, simply because it's been around a while, it gets lumped in with DM and TDM as a "real" gamers gametype.

As I said, toning down the movement does not automatically mean that the game is some simple CS/MoH/CoD simplistic thing,it just means its more approachable to newer players...I don't see that this need alienate the veterens, UT after all has simpler movement than UT2kx. As Deepsy pointed out in his own subtle way, Epic/DE people post here regularly and obviously do listen to what people say, and it's a simple fact of life that you can't please all the people all the time....so if you were Epic and you were looking at declining number of players and the majority of people saying that they would like the game to have a flatter learning curve, while the tiny minority of pros say that they like it as it is...who would you listen to?

Again, as I said. You complain at diminishing numbers of people playing CTF. You didn't answer my question, so I'll repeat it. Do you think that if Epic aims the new game at the same people who play DM/CTF at pro level now (making it basically just the same but with better graphics), that the number of people playing those gametypes will increase, or get smaller still?
I put it to you that all this would do would mean that the only new players that UT2k7 would get would be people who come to it to play Conquest...and like happened with 2k4 and ONS, most of them will probably stay playing Conquest while the older gametypes dwindle and die.

What pleases you personally may not be good for the game (and for gamtypes like DM (which I personally love) and CTF) in general.

 

[JaFO]

(1) Steep learning curves may be fun for no-lifers, but to anyone with half a brain they ought to be eliminated.
It doesn't just discourage the new players (thereby reducing potential growth). It also encourages them to seek out and use cheats just to be able to play the game and not get blasted every second.

(2) just because it's not steep doesn't mean it can't last forever ...
there's always going to be new maps to learn & new items to discover (provided you want to touch mutators)

(3) qualifying ONS as a "noob-game" is stupid beyond belief
It's neither better nor worse than any other gametype. It offers a wider range of skills (as it adds vehicular combat into the mix), with a different emphasis on what is considered 'good' for the team.

(4) the fact that CPL chose Doom 3 instead of UT2kx because of the money offered by nVidia is enough to make me glad that Epic didn't bother to waste any additional money
Why should Epic support a company/organisation that's only interested in money if they want the competive community to grow ?
Shouldn't an organisation that wants to promote competitive games chose a game based on what it has to offer instead of who offers the most money as they do now ?

 

[Switch`]

 

[T2A`]

The skill level matching is a great idea for making the game more accessible. Why does it need to go beyond that? Most everyone I play with realizes that we need divisions to make the game more enjoyable for newbies, we want that, but we dont' have the skills/time/resources to put that together. Epic is saying that they will make that easier to accomplish and I think thats great. But the movement is not a "problem" that needs to be "corrected". It's the funnest part of this game.

You seem to be banking on the fact that Epic is changing the movement solely to help the n00bs. Where did Epic say that? Last I heard they were doing it so the map/player scale wouldn't be so screwed up and so hitscan would be more balanced. You know what they say about assumptions, and that's certainly ringing true here. I'm tired of shooting at dots across Goliath, personally. Additionally, I would bet money that the only thing they're going to be "dumbing down" is to make it so you can't double jump after you dodge. I'd bet they will be "dumbing up" movement speed so dodges and walldodges will still take you a considerable distance.

 

[MANIFOLD]

I think your point of view may be skewed a little. New players gravitate toward ONS because it is the "new, cool thing." Face it, some people get tired of DM and CTF in every came that comes out. They want something new. When UT2004 came out, there wasn't really anything like ONS, so everyone wanted to play it. It's just not the newbies that play either. I know of several veteran players who have left CTF or TDM to play ONS.

To hint that ONS doesn't take much skill must result from a lack of exposure to the gametype. ONS takes a lot of skill if played correctly, and it perhaps demands the most teamwork of any gametype when playing the game properly (NOTE: I am NOT a regular ONS player. I'm a CTF ladder player).

Ok, this is a comment I made in my original post

And btw, Onslaught is the noob mod, and thats not being elitist it's just true. Don't be insulted if you love Onslaught just recognize the fact that you don't want a challenge and/or you're the kind of person who gives up when you get owned.

Since that comment is getting nearly all the attention, I do regret making it. But I think editing the post would be dishonest. I made that comment as a reaction to posts elsewhere in this forum and as someone has already said, it distracts from what I'm trying to say. I'm old enough to know better than to be reactionary but...it happens.

MANI

 

[Renegade Retard]

Ok, this is a comment I made in my original post

Since that comment is getting nearly all the attention, I do regret making it. But I think editing the post would be dishonest. I made that comment as a reaction to posts elsewhere in this forum and as someone has already said, it distracts from what I'm trying to say. I'm old enough to know better than to be reactionary but...it happens.

MANI

:tup:

As far as movement goes, I think what Turns2Ashes said is more likely the reasoning for the changes.

Also, Epic isn't trying to dumb down the game. They're trying to help the new players be able to learn basics more quickly. This can be accomplished without eliminating the learning curve.

I look at it this way - to learn some of the more complicated moves and skills, someone has to teach the new people. If Epic doesn't find a way to accomodate them, then people like your and I will have to take the time to teach the skills to them. Now, I've spent many countless hours teaching new folks, but if there was some sort of tutorial in the game that could teach, say, wall dodging, then that's less time I have to spend teach and more time I can actually play.

 

[edhe]

/me agrees yet again with ren

/me humps deepsy.

 

[Symbolikal]

wtf? The fact that they see this as something that needs to be corrected is all that needs to be known. Epic believes (wrongly) that the learning curve has something to do with the size of the ut2k4 community.

Here's my version of the facts:

1)They did zip for advertising the game. See the unreal championship commercials on tv? how many did you see for ut2k4?

2)Too many mods from the start, fracturing the community more than it already was. And btw, Onslaught is the noob mod, and thats not being elitist it's just true. Don't be insulted if you love Onslaught just recognize the fact that you don't want a challenge and/or you're the kind of person who gives up when you get owned.

3)They allowed Nvidia/ID to get CPL to drop UT2k4 from the event in favor of (OF ALL THINGS) Doom3 multiplayer. I'm convinced that they could have done something about this but they didn't care.

4)They don't care about the people who have been true to this franchize thru all 3 versions. If they did, the quote above wouldn't be there.

5)If they were actually *involved* in our community it *would* be bigger, but they're not. They leave it to us to provide our own anti-cheats, our own ladders, etc. When was the last time someone from Epic popped into one of our irc channels and asked us what we think? We're there EVERY DAY playing this game, that should count for something. We're the ones who rent servers, rent TS servers, form clans, get on ladders...(You ppl who basically play Onslaught for a couple hours on Saturday, yet post in this forum like you're part of "the community"; puleeze).

My Opinions:

I seriously believe that there are people in this forum who think that adjusting your mouse sense or fov to improve your aim is just too much trouble.

Dumb down the dodging? Dodging IS UT. There are plenty of people in our (ctf,dm,tdm) community that are willing to help you learn this game if you don't quit cause you got fragged too many times.

I don't think I'm alone when I say that I won't be buying this game if the learning curve or the movements are substantially changed. The fact that I could play this game everyday for a year and still be on that learning curve is what makes the game fun. It's not elitist to think that way; it comes from having a genuinely competitive spirit. That means that when you're down 18-0 and theres one minute left you still play full-tilt.

Thx
MANI

I'm agreeing with Deepershade. You're just like that Fresh&Minty guy who thought because he had an ego that he could tell everybody what he wanted was right for them. You also flame gametypes you don't like. I can't play onslaught for my life, but that doesn't mean I try to force the views onto Onslaught players that they can't stand getting their arse handed to them on a silver platter so they play Onslaught. That is what you are, whiner. You call yourself pro, but you only play one game, every day.
Crawl out your parent's basement, get out of your parent's house and get a life. People who only play Onslaught on Saturdays who post here are still part of the community, whether you like it or not. Just because we aren't wasting every hour every day in front of that screen, doesn't mean we pretend we are in this community.
/rant that may or may not make any sense

 

[MANIFOLD]

:tup:
I look at it this way - to learn some of the more complicated moves and skills, someone has to teach the new people. If Epic doesn't find a way to accomodate them, then people like your and I will have to take the time to teach the skills to them. Now, I've spent many countless hours teaching new folks, but if there was some sort of tutorial in the game that could teach, say, wall dodging, then that's less time I have to spend teach and more time I can actually play.

I've been volunteering my time as an admin on the gibs demo servers since 2k3 came out, coaching when I can, trying to make the new players want to come back. Last week I put up a website to try to help bring people into the retail scene, to show them what's beyond BoF. www.unrealdisciples.com it's a ****ty site, but it's a start. If you want to help you can send new people there that want to play but aren't quite ready to be recruited by a clan. There's a lot of people willing to teach, the challenge (aside from the crappy grapics on the website) is getting people interested enough to go there and sign up. eh, it's only been a week.

The "mission statement" from the site:

1. To introduce as many players as possible to our community, regardless of skill level or experience.

2. To show people that UT2k4-CTF has a lot more to offer than what is readily apparent from the pubs, especially the demo servers.

3. To teach new players the basic skills needed to be an effective team member.

4. To expose new players to real team competition.

5. To help new players get recruited by established clans and/or help them start their own clans.


MANI

 

[Renegade Retard]

Symbo, please read the entire thread before you respond. He's already opoligized for his comments on ONS.

Don't be so quick to jump on the witch hunt bandwagon.

 

[edhe]

Real Pro's Don't Whine.

Should paste that everywhere

 

[Renegade Retard]

Real Pro's Don't Whine.

Should paste that everywhere

Done! (see sig)

 

[livingtarget]

That is a real good and noble idea there Mani, it's just the execution that kind of scares me.

May I suggest to get the a dedicated 'group' and build the best *cough* site for new player ever and only open it up once it's 99% finished.
Hosting could even be provided by BeyondUnreal I'm sure.

Anyway just some ideas. I would get involved but I doubt your real commitment to the project as of yet. It's one thing to have a good idea, it's a whole different matter to push it through.

I remember a newbie training grounds for ut99 mods and it was quite popular.

Good luck with all that

 

[Symbolikal]

Symbo, please read the entire thread before you respond. He's already opoligized for his comments on ONS.

Don't be so quick to jump on the witch hunt bandwagon.

I did read the thread, but he shouldn't of made those comments in the first place. He has apologised, and I (and the rest of the forums hopefully) have accepted his apology. He has yet to apologise for trying to squish us with his ego.
/me congratulates edhe

 

[MANIFOLD]

I did read the thread, but he shouldn't of made those comments in the first place. He has apologised, and I (and the rest of the forums hopefully) have accepted his apology. He has yet to apologise for trying to squish us with his ego.
/me congratulates edhe

bleh. How many self effacing comments do I have to make? How many times to I have to distance myself from terms like arrogant, elite, Pro? I already said I'm not even in the upper half in the skill department. I don't think anything short of disavowing all of my opinions and subscribing to the party line will satisfy you.

The press releases that I've read so far have made me feel that Epic was ignoring part of the community. When I wanted to post my opinion I looked in other threads first and saw that anyone posting an opinion similar to mine was labeled "elite" "arrogant", etc, noting that such arrogant and elite people typically insult the onslaught mod by calling noobish. I also noted that those same arrogant and elite players only want the steep learning curve because they're petty and enjoy owning noobs in pubs. Those comments did annoy me and color the intent of my post. (yet those posts don't get flamed) And even though I did try to be clear that one could like the game the way it is and yet not be arrogant or elite here you are, eager to put me in my place for not sharing your views.

That I've not responded in kind to the personal attacks from you and Deepershade is apology enough. You certainly wouldn't make them to me in person.

 

[MANIFOLD]

That is a real good and noble idea there Mani, it's just the execution that kind of scares me.

May I suggest to get the a dedicated 'group' and build the best *cough* site for new player ever and only open it up once it's 99% finished.
Hosting could even be provided by BeyondUnreal I'm sure.

Anyway just some ideas. I would get involved but I doubt your real commitment to the project as of yet. It's one thing to have a good idea, it's a whole different matter to push it through.

I remember a newbie training grounds for ut99 mods and it was quite popular.

Good luck with all that

man I'm not even thinking of something like a newbie training grounds. I was only thinking to recruit enough new people to have a scrim squad, say 7 ppl or so? And then try to get some of them recruited by other clans, and replace them.

I'm half decent with perl and css, but not graphics. I think the website will be the hardest part actually.

MANI

 

[edhe]

It's been quite obvious in the press releases that they'll be catering to the competitive clan and 1v1 community whilst spending more resources to make the game more accessable for the newstarts.

So that's ideal.

 

[Ignotium]

I did read the thread, but he shouldn't of made those comments in the first place. He has apologised, and I (and the rest of the forums hopefully) have accepted his apology. He has yet to apologise for trying to squish us with his ego.
/me congratulates edhe

If that's what he feels, he can say it as many times as he want

Personally i KINDA agrre in the fact that ONS has the most amount of new players, but for me is one of the most dificult modes to play

 

[kafros]

You have all gone off topic so I will put you back on track with my idea for fixing the so called "steep learn curve" problem.


How about having a leveling system like MMORPGs? (hang on 5 secs before you start shooting at me and read further...you know you want to..)

Go back and remember the times that you were feeling dissapointed that after respawning you got close to the shock rifle or the lightning gun. You wanted the FLAK and ROCKETS because you still sucked at aiming and movement. Nowdays all you want is SR and LG. Correct? (of course)

What if the game's gameplay features were introduced slowly as a player got better online rank? So apart from playing with people at your level you are also using mechanics (movement & weapons) appropriate for your level. I believe that ANY process of learning has to go through small iterations to be succesfull.

Do that and you will avoid that:
You step into the basketball court for the first time, they hand you a walk-through, you take 2 shots and then they tell you: get ready for a 1 on 1 with this dude Michael J...


And this concludes this tread and all of its arguments because I WIN...

to which I will add: