Terrorist attack in Norway!
- Thread starter Benfica
- Start date
-
Two Factor Authentication is now available on BeyondUnreal Forums. To configure it, visit your Profile and look for the "Two Step Verification" option on the left side. We can send codes via email (may be slower) or you can set up any TOTP Authenticator app on your phone (Authy, Google Authenticator, etc) to deliver codes. It is highly recommended that you configure this to keep your account safe.
It's something he's been planning and calculating for about half of his life, not exactly a sudden outburst of uncontrollable anger. He's saying that he finds what he did to be atrocious but a necessity. The survivors from the summer camp say he was perfectly calm and systematic.
Seeing as he willingly turned himself in, published all this material beforehand, and is being really talkative in custody, it's obvious that his motives are attention towards his cause which is monoculturalism.
Seeing as he willingly turned himself in, published all this material beforehand, and is being really talkative in custody, it's obvious that his motives are attention towards his cause which is monoculturalism.
Last edited:
... which is consistant with a criminal mindset (sometimes brought about by social isolation) mixed in with a bit of ideology through an intellectual need which supports whatever the views of the individual are. This in turn can push the same individual to join other like-minded people.
Also anger/contempt/hate is not necessarily uncontrollable. It can last for decades, centuries even if passed between generatons.
Last edited:
Opinion unchanged. You can choose to look at a person for what they are (needs, emotions...) or what their stated motives were (reasoning, ideology, justification, actions...).
Example: Hitler was a nazi (ideology) who was stated as wanting to build a new race (purpose/justification). He was also a frustrated short man who grew up hating jews (emotion) who he saw as taking up all the commerce while he was doing shitty work (source of emotion).
Needs, wants, hates... => ideas, justifications, actions...
P.S: Godwin point achieved.
Last edited:
Dude is pretty insane. Yeah, Marxism and Islam go hand in hand.
Awful day for Norway, especially for those involved or related to those involved.
Awful day for Norway, especially for those involved or related to those involved.
I hope I'm not coming accross as minimizing that. Just have a little difficulty identifying with the suffering incurred due to personal background.
Things like this will happen despite best efforts. However, what I'm trying to say is that pressure has to come out somewhere. Historically speaking, these events do seem to happen more often when there's social turmoil. It's kind of like a spark of chaos against an organized and oppressive mess. An idle mind is not only wasted but can also become destructive. And I'm in a good position to state that because in other circumstances and with additional knowledge I could have considered an act of desparation. Take away all the fuzzy and feel good chemicals from a person and you have the potential to make someone cold, detached and oblivious to others. I think that more or less sums it up.
Of course, that doesn't exclude several people being on the same wavelength and forming an ideological movement. To take the example of the IRA, this is a sign of communication breakdown.
Last edited:
Yes, the Hitler and nazism had to be mentioned sooner or later. You realize that pointing out this example on a forum read by current generation Germans living 70(!!!) years after the events, makes you bigoted Germanophobe? Political correctness has double standards, doesn't it?
Anyway, the problem with your approach is that it tends to reduce it to a single individual, and sweep the latent problem under the rug. Not so radically, but millions of Europeans silently share his views. For example, the ones that voted Geert Wilders in Netherlands.
it's actually pretty normal to "consider" all sorts of things depending on your mood and life circumstances. people who are extremely sad/depressed/enraged/etc can have any number of crazy thoughts pass through their head when they're feeling at their worst. especially when it feels like they're at their wits end.
it's even healthy.
everyone needs an outlet, whether that's within the mind or takes the form of punching a pillow. some people become distraught and consider shooting up their office building. some people are so lonely and horny that they consider having sex with the 9-year old girl next door. just tell her you've got some candy in your bedroom. it's easy.
the difference is obviously actions.
actions separate the relatively stable from the clearly insane.
we've all considered things that we would otherwise never think of carrying out. the people that manage to go through with these thoughts are the rare individuals who have truly lost touch with reality.
bad thoughts don't make a bad person.
Last edited:
If you want to label me as bigoted Germanophobe so be it
. It just goes to show how an emotion can lead a person to make a leap in logic (mention of Hitler => assumption that a person has something against people living in Germany). How does believing monocultarism lead one to conclude that is necessary to plan and kill dozens of people? There is no logical link whatsoever.Oh I'm well aware of that and that is the real problem. It's been slowly building up over the years since the FPO gained popularity in Austria in 2000. Discontent is growing and intolerance/racism is slowly becoming a norm. You have only to look at how Sarkozy and Merkel openly declared that multicuturalism failed after the uprisings in the Maghreb region/North Africa. No minister or President would have dared say something like that 5-10 years ago.
Last edited:
who's labeling?
I'm agreeing with you when you said "Things like this will happen despite best efforts."
I was just expanding on the idea. my point being that bad thoughts don't make a bad person.
I'm agreeing with you when you said "Things like this will happen despite best efforts."
I was just expanding on the idea. my point being that bad thoughts don't make a bad person.
It was in reply to Benfica who was obviously upset. I am aware of the stigma that the German people have to the point that some things have become taboo.
I do in fact have sympathy for those who lived through that period and don't care for the persistent stereotype brought about by a past regime. The cemetaries with the dark crosses, the trees, statues of children and the general humility all convey the mix of sadness, the feelings of deceit and despair of the time.
Yes, in the end it's the actions that count. And it's reassuring to know that most of us have had their dark moments and are able to resolve them.
You also mention an outlet which adds to the idea of (social) pressure. It's one of these problems that people in power would rather avoid tackling like gun control as they're difficult to solve and sometimes regarded as questions that are best left to "personal hygiene".
IMO, that's bad because western society has probably been taking the shit slide since the end of the eighties after riding the boost provided by the post-WW2 economic boom. The safety nets provided by moral/religious values and standards in mutual respect are slowly having holes punched in them. And we are now in a time that is being compared to the 1930s great depression. It is perhaps an exageration but I'll let you draw the similarities between then and now. The mindset might have been different but there is a rise in racism/intolerance.
Also, I don't pretend to be right or wrong about anything. I gave up the 'Mr. Right' boat a while ago and just giving a little nudge so you can think outside the box to form your own true independant opinion instead of following the bandwagon as the media/political world would like you to do. Both of these worlds know that shitstorms equals money. The media sell more bog paper and governments are being given the green flag to spend more money on defense/security because everyone is afraid of being blown to crap by the next terrorist or lone gunner.
I do in fact have sympathy for those who lived through that period and don't care for the persistent stereotype brought about by a past regime. The cemetaries with the dark crosses, the trees, statues of children and the general humility all convey the mix of sadness, the feelings of deceit and despair of the time.
Yes, in the end it's the actions that count. And it's reassuring to know that most of us have had their dark moments and are able to resolve them.
You also mention an outlet which adds to the idea of (social) pressure. It's one of these problems that people in power would rather avoid tackling like gun control as they're difficult to solve and sometimes regarded as questions that are best left to "personal hygiene".
IMO, that's bad because western society has probably been taking the shit slide since the end of the eighties after riding the boost provided by the post-WW2 economic boom. The safety nets provided by moral/religious values and standards in mutual respect are slowly having holes punched in them. And we are now in a time that is being compared to the 1930s great depression. It is perhaps an exageration but I'll let you draw the similarities between then and now. The mindset might have been different but there is a rise in racism/intolerance.
Also, I don't pretend to be right or wrong about anything. I gave up the 'Mr. Right' boat a while ago and just giving a little nudge so you can think outside the box to form your own true independant opinion instead of following the bandwagon as the media/political world would like you to do. Both of these worlds know that shitstorms equals money. The media sell more bog paper and governments are being given the green flag to spend more money on defense/security because everyone is afraid of being blown to crap by the next terrorist or lone gunner.
Last edited:
Nonsense. It is "okay" within the dominant "Western" culture and mindset to rehash those events and throw them at the face of others. It's not even given a 2nd thought. For example, when this Greek bailout charade started, the Germans freaked out not because they were fearing that they had to pay to help "cheaters", but rather because the Greek media and some Greeks started to Nazi-troll them.If you want to label me as bigoted Germanophobe so be it
Anyway ...
There is no reason to kill or hurt people. He became a fanatic with strong ideology, more closed-minded by the day. The thing is, that ideology is nothing that he just dreamed of or pulled out of his ass. It is based on real life facts. He just freaked out and went into some disorder or delusion as other terrorists do. However these are created by your "environment". Here is where we disagree: this is NOT (or will not be) an isolated incident if that context and facts are dismissed or minimized.
First of all, what does race have to do with religion? Then I don't understand if you think that trying to balance things and not being an appeaser is a good or bad thing.
What, you mean like that reputation Greeks have because their ancestors had *cough* same sex relations *cough* ?
Ok, so basically you agree that he was in his little bubble and took things too far.
And sure he picked up an ideology. I mean someone could also adopt Inca sacrifice rituals and rip people's heart out saying that it's necessary to appease the gods and avoid a cataclysm. It's a belief system like any other and it serves to bolster the self-truths without which an individual would feel lost and unsafe. There is a lot of worry about the fate of the planet so it fits real life facts. Adopting monocultarism would be more, say, mainstream.
But lets say this is the tip of the iceberg and the guy actually acted out what some are thinking deep down. I don't disagree. Call it a social trend, environment or whatever, there's an obvious shift in disfavour of the multicultural model.
What I'd add to that is the apparent impulse behind this shift is intolerance which in turn is fueled by frustration and the tendency humans have to offload tension on groups or individuals that are perceived as weaker or in smaller numbers. Rejection and exclusion seem to be a way to find differences with another guy and pick a fight with them. This in turn brings the question of whether the human species is hardwired to fight/wage war when resources are lacking.
Anyway, what I'm saying is that this guy is on his own on how he chose to express his beliefs. He had the psychological makeup or whatever to react in a unique and lethal way to a larger phenomenon. So in essence, I'd agree with you but I'd have my reservations when it comes to cases where an individual is mentally unstable. That they picked an idea up as a cause or a simple excuse/justification is subjective and can only be known to them. But then, a group of people carrying out similar acts could also be considered as "off the hinge".
To finish off, my take on the multicultural/monocultural debate is that there are some valid reasons why it is posing a problem. France is a good example of where a lot of effort has been made to make multiculturalism work. Integrating the different ex-colonies has produced some good stuff but it turns out now that the approach to integration shared the same flaw as colonialism in that it was driven by the biased viewpoint of those wanting to achieve it. With the riots in the suburbs and rising unemployment among immigrants it is obviously not working anymore.
There are economic reasons to this (if everyone led a fulfulling existence there would be no reason for creating hassle...) but also cultural differences. The more traditional Islamic culture is just too different to be integrated as part of France and french culture according to the original integration approach. Plus, with the knee-jerk reaction the Islamic world has had after 9/11 the tendency to keep distances and insist on cultural symbols like the veil has greatened.
The same applies to Europe overall. Having a unique currency and opening frontiers up is all nice and rosy, the cultural difference isn't so great but nothing has been done to compensate for the difference in tax rates and wages. In effect, what this means is that some jobs like in software programming are being shifted to Eastern Europe. It might cut expenses but in the long term there's a real risk that financial resources spread out in such way that the population in some of richer countries ends up with a lower standard of living due to price differences.
I mentioned religion as being another side of the same coin as morality with a given set of rules supposed to help cohabitation in the context of society. In short, thy shall not spite thy neighbour. In a multicultural context that would equate to having equal respect for other ethnics and cultures. It appears that intolerance and insecurity are rising with the disappearance of moral and religious (mostly Christian) values.
Last edited:
that may be so, but it doesn't excuse his actions
I've said it before and I will say it again, if Islam and good Muslims do not police themselves and their crackpots, there will be a Muslim holocaust that will start in Europe. Europe has done it before and they will do it again. Europe has done it's share of appeasing Muslims in their countries and this has made Muslims feel entitled to inject their culture into the prospective governments, where it has no place injecting it's religion into said institutions. Of course the extremists feed on unfortunate events like what happened in Norway and will use it as an excuse to recruit more good Muslims to their cause.