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So what has happened to the modding community??

Discussion in 'Unreal Tournament 3' started by Anuban, May 3, 2008.

  1. Angel_Mapper

    Angel_Mapper Goooooooats

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    You've gotta eat, sleep and breathe it if you want it bad enough. When I started back in 99 I spent literally every free minute of my time immersed in UnrealEd (well technically, back in 98 with HL1's Hammer, but I never released anything) for 4 years before I landed a job. You can't get good overnight, but if it's what you really want to do you need to have a lot of patience and dedication.
     
  2. iCQ

    iCQ Softice/MASM reverse engineer

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    Two main reasons; bad sales and bad attitudes (comes with the game developers/theme).

    But i think one could say that theres new ground to cover for other game engine developers...
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2008
  3. Anuban

    Anuban Your reward is that you are still alive

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    You are right of course ... and you are indeed a great example of what I was talking about. Patience is probably my greatest weakness.
     
  4. DGUnreal

    DGUnreal Level Designer

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    I still don't have a full-time job in the industry, not that I'm claiming to be in the top 100... 1000?... 1Mill?? ;)
    But for those who visit the Epic forums or my web site I feel I've shown that I know what I'm doing for the most part, and I've been at this for well over six years straight with UE stuff. :)

    That being said, most of the studios I've applied to over the past number of years never replied, and those that did offered me the lowest entry work for less money than I make right now doing IT two days a week. Part of the problem is that I am in Canada, and there are significantly fewer studios here, and those that are here are... well... no comment.
    Funny thing is, I've seen people with 1/10th of my capabilities, experience and qualifications get hired... :hmm:

    With all of the 'mess' in the UT community and so much cr*p in the game industry, I no longer have been as vigorously pursuing game studio work and I've been on the fence more than once over the past months about quitting creation of UT3 community content because of the strong negative community outlook.

    hmmm... sounds a bit down, eh? ... ;)

    It's not really meant to be... I enjoy level design and programming as an artistic outlet, so I will always be doing something in those areas.
    But for the most part, I often feel like I'm banging my head against a wall when it comes to the engine, UT3, the forums and the community...
     
  5. Vitamin-Carrot

    Vitamin-Carrot If

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    Ive been to your site DG and i thought it was rather helpfull
    Stick with it dude cause i lub you and your worx

    awwww hugs
     
  6. Vigil

    Vigil New Member

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    Yeah. *group hug*
     
  7. Crotale

    Crotale _________________________ _______________

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    DG, if you can't get a job with a game company, my dreams are thus shattered as well. I'd be willing to take an entry level position if I could afford to do so, bit it would be one heck of a reduction in pay. But hey, I figure by the time I really have the necessary skillsets, I'll be old enough to withdraw from my retirement plan and entry level pay won't be so bad.
     
  8. Sjosz

    Sjosz (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

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    The only way you'll get into the industry without a (really big) paycut if you're in another industry is if you are a programmer. I daresay the next department in the industry after QA that gets paid least is design. And it'll always be that you have to start with an entry-level position because the biggest factor there is professional experience. That's just how it is :/
     
  9. DGUnreal

    DGUnreal Level Designer

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    Thanks VC. :)

    My post wasn't meant to sound sad or down, just frustrated... ;)
    But we can all use a hug every now and then.


    TY


    If you are in another country such as the US your chances of getting work are much higher. I'm sure I would have no problem in the US getting work, but they don't give work visas for video game design. ;)

    I make about $50k doing IT two days a week, the only game work I was offered in Canada was newby level designer for $30k which also required moving to a larger city with about a 20% higher cost of living... and they wonder why I didn't jump at it... :)
    The other Cdn studios I've had responses from basically had the attitude of "unless you managed Microsoft games and have 10+ AAA games to your credit, we aren't interested..." as if some hick studio most of us never heard of should have this level of requirements... :)
    They probably need someone like that though to make the rest of the studio look good. ;)

    I have had a number of smaller freelance gigs with studios, content and demos and such, but here that doesn't count for much.

    I'm working on improving my skill set all of the time, mostly because I like the artform for myself. I own a few high-end PCs, 3DS Max, etc. and with only working about two days a week at my regular job that leaves me the rest of the time to work on my game interests.
    A person needs really strong 3D or programming these days to get anywhere.
     
  10. Crotale

    Crotale _________________________ _______________

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    Yeah, that's what I'm figuring. I have almost zip for 3D skills and nothing for programming. Heck, even the texture artist gigs advertised only required Photoshop but state that knowledge/experience with 3DSMax, etc, are desired. Makes me think that if the job isn't filled within a few months, those "desired" skills actually are more like "required" skills, because there are a LOT of Photoshop savvy folks in the world.

    I shouldn't complain, as I have been paid for my artwork by one of the world's largest organizations: the US Air Force.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2008
  11. DGUnreal

    DGUnreal Level Designer

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    Programming or if you have experience in high-end 3D such as motion picture work, or other specialties like mocap, pro audio, etc. Level Designers are quite common and plentiful in most regions.

    3D is required for almost anything artistic these days. You should learn Max or Maya if you want to continue on anywhere in the game industry.


    I would settle for $40k and entry level, $30k isn't even enough for food and an apartment. I like my (easy) IT job, I have a nice house and I'm (currently) single, it's the city I'm in that I dislike. It has the highest per-capita crime, drug and domestic violence in the entire province. It's all rednecks and bar-flies here.

    I personally can do programming, art, level design and audio. But I prefer the more artistic outlets than the logics of programming. You burn out fast with heavy programming.


    3D knowledge will be required since as an artist you would be responsible for creating/editing textures, skins, normal maps, etc., so without knowledge of what is going on in the 3D end you would be at a disadvantage.
    Creating textures is fine, but knowing how to create them for mapping to 3D game objects is a necessity. You don't have to be a top modeler, but you will have to be familar with how to get textures in and out of 3D apps and mapped to objects.

    Even the 3D basics that many community modelers have isn't enough with this generation of engines. You need to know about Lightmap UV channels, ShadeMaps (AO), NormalMaps, etc. That is why most community maps still look like UT99 or UT2004 quality.
     
  12. Angel_Mapper

    Angel_Mapper Goooooooats

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    Most of the time it's all about who you know that gets you game jobs. A lot of people that companies hire are recommendations from current employees.

    And yeah, if you don't have previous experience you're not going to get paid the big bucks, same with switching any career.
     
  13. [SAS]Solid Snake

    [SAS]Solid Snake New Member

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    Either that or just start your own software development shop. That's what I am doing, and it's hard work and there's hope that it will be rewarding. I suppose when you get into the business, don't expect to be like iD or like Epic even. Just make some fun games, get some money for doing what you love most of all. Sometimes I do not know why people have unrealistic dreams of working with Unreal Ed for a month and expecting to pump out maps like Epic, or use zBrush for a month and expect to be able to make incredibly high detailed game meshes. Patience, learning essential skills and increasing skill sets is always the best thing to do. And lastly, stop looking at the big studios out there. They'll want incredibly experienced people. They don't care if you can learn fast. They hire people to do the job, not to learn the job. There are a lot of smaller development outfits that get ignored because they aren't making the AAA titles. At the end of the day, if your looking for a job, look for one that fits with your skill set in honest light (don't suck in your stomach while looking at the scales sort of thing).

    For example, I've read quite a few CV's now. Prominent declarations like:

    When actually asked about this, the person said he had played with the platforms, not developed with them. The person answered honestly, but gave very ambigious references in the CV.

    When actually probed, all this person knew how to do was make empty cubes in Radiant, texture it and put a few game entities inside. He didn't know Photoshop, 3DSMax or anything else to actually create his own content to fill the space. When questioned why, the answer was "because that's an artist's job". Worst of all this person wanted either "3000 pounds a month, or 15 pounds per hour"

    So ... if you want to get into the game industry, be honest with yourself, and represent your CV honestly. If you can't keep up with the skillsets the experienced developers have, then apply for a smaller contract or smaller companies to start with. Keep your day job, unless you can afford not to do so (don't expect to get paid big wings, or lots of royalties). Promise what you can, and make sure you don't get screwed.

    Getting screwed can be done so in a few ways:
    • Promise of stock options
    • Promise of payment (aka deferred payment)
    • Promise of more work, after initial work is complete
    Don't get screwed.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2008
  14. Sir_Brizz

    Sir_Brizz Administrator Staff Member

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    Actually, programmers have to take a huge hit, too. No matter what you've been doing (unless you've been doing some business C++ which is getting more rare by the minute). I'm not an awesome programmer but I would estimate I am one of the top 10 I have ever met (in person, of course). Still, I'd have to take about a $20k/year hit to get into the industry in programming.
     
  15. cubemario

    cubemario Cubely Wrath

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    A great way to get into the industry is make a really good mod. Something like that will get you noticed (even if you don't have a degree). With a lot of game companies, they will pick the person with the most know how and skill. Degrees ARE a nice thing to have though, for a while I was stubborn that they were totally useless when it came to making stuff for games. However going through univ/college will give you a lot of hands on experience and teach you how to work with your team.

    Just thought i'd give my two cents. I plan to get into the game industry, but i'll be doing a lot of at home training for a 2 or 3 years. Then i'll probably work on a degree from there. Getting into the industry takes a lot of work and time. Heck, any good career will take a while.

    You gotta start out small.
     
  16. elmuerte

    elmuerte Master of Science

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    You met yourself in person? How did you do that?

    I'm the absolute best programmer within a radius of 2m.


    And now for some serious comments.
    Programmers in the game industry are overall the most competent programmers. There are really a **** load of incompetent programmers getting paid a **** load of money to produce absolute crap. Although it is not always their fault.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2008
  17. Lruce Bee

    Lruce Bee Transcending to another level

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    I got my level design job last year and some sacrifices were made in the process but not financially.
    I earn a lot more than I did in my last job so that's a bonus for me.
    The biggest decision was relocating.
    The amount of decision making involved is enormous, especially if you've got a wife and kids.
    In my case my son was in his final year of Uni and he already had a bunch of plans for himself anyway.
    It was at that point I started seriously thinking about giving the games industry a crack and I'd already done quite a bit of contract work on the side for various projects.
    Jay Harrison (remember him? - guy who got all of us CBP guys together to do the bonus packs?)
    Well he was in the process of signing up with DICE in Stokholme in Sweden and he recommended me to them and guess what?
    They flew me out there for interview and they then asked me back for a second interview and this time flew my wife out with me as well - how cool is that?
    Trouble is I didn't land the job and that was an incredible let down because I really thought I'd nailed it.
    Anyway, after that I decided to get a web site up and running.
    My maps and other stuff were dotted around all over the internet so I had to just get it all together in one place and make it presentable.
    I learnt Maya in about 4 weeks and knocked out some half decent stuff.
    Anyone who's interested, this is my website and the one I used in interviews.
    http://lruce.planetunreal.gamespy.com/
    Haven't updated it in a while but I only used it as a way of presenting my work.
    It's nothing amazing and there are far better sites with more work and better quality but I thought £uck it, I'm going to give it a go so I joined up with a games recruitment agency (I used Datascope) and within 2 weeks of signing up I had 3 interviews lined up and other agencies were ringing me.
    I was like WTF?
    I had interviews with Media Molecule who were in production with Little Big Planet for the PS3 - Kuju in Sheffield (now Chemistry) and Evolution Studios/Sony here in Cheshire.
    I took the Evolution Studios job because they had just finished Motorstorm for the PS3 and they seemed the coolest at the time and they made me a great offer - so I took it.
    Left my other job of 15 years+ (that was a hard thing to do) and relocated to Cheshire for 6 months on my own while my wife kept things ticking over on the other side of the country (that was also a hard thing to do)
    My wife had to put in a transfer for a new job within another government department but that worked out fantastic and she loves her new job so bonus there.
    My son rents my other house in my home town with his girlfriend and I bought a new house up here at the beginning of the year.
    It all worked out exactly as I intended but only after I'd made the effort.
    This time last year I was stuck in my old job not knowing what I wanted to do.
    Go figure.

    Lruce
     
  18. MonsOlympus

    MonsOlympus Active Member

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    15 pounds per hour... Man I bet pit crews for formula 1 dont even get paid that much :lol:

    Thats just rediculous, I mean here doing archviz I was getting a measly $10aud an hour, pretty crap considering the boss was getting thousands per render but he had to keep us moving etc so it was alittle bit of a balancing act. I did manage to get a rise to $15 but eventually I was too skilled for the job so the guy couldnt afford to pay me an pull a profit no matter how quick we were workin. 15 pounds is double that though woah $30aud a hour and Id be set :p

    Hmmz maybe my future is bright as a programmer :)
     
  19. elmuerte

    elmuerte Master of Science

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    If you get at least a Bachelor degree in something remotely related to computer science you can land a programming job.
     
  20. Sleepless

    Sleepless New Member

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    glad one of these bitch and moan about ut3 threads turned out to be kind of inspirational :)
     

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