So, this "light speed" thing...

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dragonfliet

I write stuffs
Apr 24, 2006
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You can't think of "speed" like that. Speed is a measurement of the relationship of distance and time. The speed of light is relative to the person measuring it.

No, the speed of light is NOT relative to the person measuring it. That's what the hell special relativity is entirely about. If I am traveling 30 miles an hour north and you are traveling 30mph south how we measure our own speed and each other's speed may vary, but the speed of light (in a vacuum) will ALWAYS be the same.

Let me say it again: speed of anything under the speed of light is relative. The speed of light is ALWAYS the speed of light. It is counter-intuitive, but it has been demonstrated a number of times. This is the Theory of Special Relativity, cut and dry. Perhaps you should bring it up on your secret forum with well-known scientists?

Also: I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to get at with your apples suggestion. IF the current system works and is testable, new discoveries aren't going to fundamentally change things. Not even the Theory of Relativity fundamentally changed gravity (though it did open up tons of new, interesting areas of understanding in very large ways)--Newtonian gravity works just fine on any but the very largest of scales (where Einsteinian gravity is more accurate), and has not been entirely overthrown--it has simply been tweaked. This is the same thing that will happen here. Even if it turns out to be a massive, huge thing, it will only be important in the areas that we didn't understand, it will not actually change the things that we have already tested/retested/etc.
 

SleepyHe4d

fap fap fap
Jan 20, 2008
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jeez Jason...

I agree, as most probably do, w/ what you're saying, but you don't need to ram it up his ass and give it 20 turns :lol:

Eh, he was basically asking for it. Some people here seem to have no idea what they're talking about but pretend they do. :con: People are posting stupid ass comments like the speed of light isn't constant with absolutely no proof. :lol:
 

gopostal

Active Member
Jan 19, 2006
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Yeah, let's just ignore time dilation. It's hard to grasp anyway.
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/einsteinlight/jw/module4_time_dilation.htm

It's all in who is observing relative to the thing being observed. Light in a vacuum has a constant speed but as soon as you start monkeying with moving light through water, air, or even near a black hole and induce severe gravitational effects on it then the speed changes. That's why it's a black hole. (insert your snark here)
 

Balton

The Beast of Worship
Mar 6, 2001
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Eh, he was basically asking for it. Some people here seem to have no idea what they're talking about but pretend they do. :con: People are posting stupid ass comments like the speed of light isn't constant with absolutely no proof. :lol:

the speed of light is no constant, the speed of light in a vacacuum as defined as c which equals roughly 300 000 metre/second is a constant ;)
 

BITE_ME

Bye-Bye
Jun 9, 2004
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Not here any more
If I put my car in a vacuum.
Would the headlights be faster then the rest of the car?

PS: I read some thing to day that said some people found light inside of a vacuum.
If you know these people.
Could you please tell them to return my flashlight.
But they can keep the mouse.
 

dragonfliet

I write stuffs
Apr 24, 2006
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Yeah, let's just ignore time dilation. It's hard to grasp anyway.
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/einsteinlight/jw/module4_time_dilation.htm

It's all in who is observing relative to the thing being observed. Light in a vacuum has a constant speed but as soon as you start monkeying with moving light through water, air, or even near a black hole and induce severe gravitational effects on it then the speed changes. That's why it's a black hole. (insert your snark here)

Time dilation doesn't change the fact that the speed of light ISN'T relative. Speed is relative, but the speed of light is not relative. If I am moving north at 150million meters/sec at a perfectly smooth rate and someone caught up at 200million m/s in the same direction, the speed measured by me would be 50mil m/s. If, however, I were to measure a beam of light moving 300 mil m/s in the same direction it would be measured at 300 mil m/s. Not 150 mil m/s. I mean, GOOD GOD READ THE LINK YOU SENT ME:

How can they seem to travel at c with respect to Jasper and also at c with respect to Zoe? Shouldn't Zoe see the light travelling at c-v or c+v? No it doesn't: all observers obesrve the light to travel at c. Yes, it's weird, but that's Einstein's principle of relativity: the laws of physics, including Maxwell's laws of electromagnetism, are the same for two observers in inertial frames. (For a derivation of the expressions for relative velocities see Lorentz transforms, the addition of velocities and spacetime.)

Speed is always relative to the perceiver except for the speed of light. All these other tricks and games and examples are simply explaining how this happens to be.
 

Underscore

<br /><img src="http://blunder.ath.cx:9680/syncsig
Dec 5, 2001
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Yeah, let's just ignore time dilation. It's hard to grasp anyway.
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/einsteinlight/jw/module4_time_dilation.htm

Like dragonfliet and the page you posted says, you need time dilation to make the speed of light constant (that's the point of it). All this wacky special relativity stuff is there to make the speed of light the same for everyone. You can be moving in any direction at any speed, and you'll still measure the same speed of light that everyone else does.

This page is similar to the one you posted, but has some really nice animated gifs that show that you can start with the idea that the speed of light is the same for all observers, and go on to derive time dilation and length contraction just from that.

Light in a vacuum has a constant speed but as soon as you start monkeying with moving light through water, air, or even near a black hole and induce severe gravitational effects on it then the speed changes.

The awkward bit here is defining velocity for light travelling through water or air or whatever (or defining the velocity of any kind of wave at all). There are different velocities. Some of them can be faster than the speed of light. On top of that, the medium itself interacts with the light, which makes things even more complicated. None of that means that relativity doesn't work - it just means you have to be careful about what you mean when you talk about the speed of light.
 
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Zur

surrealistic mad cow
Jul 8, 2002
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I'm surprised noone has posted this:

[m]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mk7VWcuVOf0[/m]
 

Manticore

Official BUF Angel of Death (also Birthdays)
Staff member
Nov 5, 2003
6,381
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Optimum Trajectory-Circus of Values
Go read some physics textbooks and come back, k? (that goes for Sleepy, too).
No thanks. You read them if that's what makes you happy.

What I meant by my comment about "the new physics" was with regard to the topic of this thread; the experiment which may rewrite the laws of physics with regard to our perception of the speed of light. Quantum mechanics is about our perception of the state of a thing... I suppose that's still physics. This experiment is about particle sized objects, not ships or planets.

You misunderstood my comment but, if you want to go read some textbooks, don't let me stop you.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15830844

Subatomic particles called neutrinos cannot move faster than the speed of light, according to a new report.
The findings challenge a result reported in September that, if true, would undermine a century of physics.

The team at the INFN-Gran Sasso laboratory in Italy said they had measured faster-than-light speeds in neutrinos sent from Cern, 730km away.

Now a different team at the same lab reports findings that, they say, cast doubt on that surprising result.

The Icarus team at the Icarus experiment says that because the neutrinos sent from Cern do not appear to lose energy on their journey, they must not have exceeded the speed of light along the way.The idea that nothing can move faster than the speed of light is a central tenet in modern physics, forming among many other things a critical part of Albert Einstein's theory of special relativity.

Critics have suggested from the start that the experiment by the Opera collaboration, who published the first striking results, must be flawed in some way.

One of the first objections to the experiment to be formally published appeared just five weeks later in the journal Physical Review Letters, co-authored by Nobel prize-winning physicist Sheldon Glashow.

Prof Glashow and his co-author Andrew Cohen argued that particles moving faster than light should emit further particles as they travel - in the process losing energy until they slow down to light-speed.

The Icarus team already had measurements of the spread of energies in neutrinos, detected in their underground instruments at Gran Sasso.

They showed in a paper again on the Arxiv repository that the neutrino energies they measure are consistent with slower-than-light-speed travel.

With the exception of Prof Glashow's theoretical paper, none of the results by the Opera or the Icarus team has been reviewed by the scientific community and formally published.

But the momentous nature of the finding has sparked a flurry of papers and ideas to challenge or support the idea that particles can travel faster than the speed of light.

It is clear the issue is unlikely to be conclusively resolved until other experiments around the world undertake similar measurements.

The Borexino experiment, also at Gran Sasso, the Minos experiment in the US and Japan's T2K facility are all expected to publish their results of similar neutrino experiments in the coming months.
 
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Manticore

Official BUF Angel of Death (also Birthdays)
Staff member
Nov 5, 2003
6,381
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Optimum Trajectory-Circus of Values
http://www.livescience.com/17154-analysis-deals-critical-blow-faster-light-results.html

New Analysis Deals Critical Blow to Faster-than-Light Results


Those famous neutrinos that appeared to travel faster than light in a recent experiment probably did not, a group of scientists say, because they failed to emit a telltale type of radiation.

According to one physicist in the group, "it's hard to argue against" this latest objection to the controversial faster-than-light result produced by other scientists in the same Italian laboratory.

In a paper posted to the physics pre-print site arXiv.org, the group, which runs the ICARUS (Imaging Cosmic and Rare Underground Signals) experiment based at Gran Sasso Laboratory (LNGS) outside Rome, argues that any faster-than-light particles would be expected to emit a particular type of radiation as they traveled. Because they didn't detect any of this coming from the neutrinos — and because the particles didn't seem to be shedding energy in the form of undetected radiation — they must have been traveling at or below the speed of light.

Ultimately, the ICARUS group is arguing that the OPERA group, which ran the experiment that measured neutrinos making a trip from CERN Laboratory in Switzerland to LNGS in Italy 60 nanoseconds faster than light would have done, must have made some mistake in its timekeeping. [Neutrinos: Not So Fast, Some Say]

The ICARUS group's argument is as follows. In some special cases, particles are able to travel faster than photons (particles of light) when penetrating a medium, such as glass. This happens when the photons frequently interact with atoms in the medium, getting absorbed and re-emitted so often that their speed through the medium falls far below "c", the notation used to describe the speed of light in a vacuum. This allows other particles to move through the medium faster than they do, though still slower than "c".

When charged particles propagate through a medium faster than light does, they emit a flurry of photons known as Cherenkov radiation, analogous to the sonic boom that comes from fighter jets exceeding the speed of sound. Cherenkov radiation is predicted by the "standard model" of particle physics and is also observed in the real world, most often as a faint blue glow emanating from the cores of nuclear reactors.

Immediately after OPERA first announced its result two months ago, physicists Andrew Cohen and Sheldon Glashow at Boston University argued that radiation analogous to Cherenkov radiation, but tailored to the case of neutrinos rather than charged particles, ought to have been emanating from the neutrino beam studied at LNGS. As the neutrinos emitted this radiation, they ought to have been losing a commensurate amount of energy.

David Cline, a physicist at the University of California, Los Angeles, and a member of the ICARUS team, said Cherenkov-like radiation in the form of photons and electron-positron pairs would have spewed from what physicists call "virtual particles" hovering around the neutrinos.

"Cherenkov light comes from these particles when the speed of light is exceeded. It is hard to argue against these virtual particles making the Cherenkov light," Cline told Life's Little Mysteries, a sister site to LiveScience.

Just days after the OPERA team announced that it had improved and repeated its famous faster-than-light neutrino measurement, the ICARUS physicists, just down the hall from them, rebutted it. They have analyzed data collected from the neutrino beam at LNGS and have found no evidence of radiation or electron-positron pairs coming from the neutrinos. They also say there were no dips in the neutrinos' energy spectrum that would imply that they were emitting Cherenkov-like radiation. Thus, according to the accepted laws of physics, the neutrinos' speed must have been equal to but no greater than the speed of light.

The only possibility of a counterargument, Cline said, is if the venerable, time-tested standard model of particle physics is proven wrong. "Of course, that could happen," he said.