Should the INF team add anymore Machine Guns than they already have planned?

[Hodag]

My vote's for the M163 system...

Adam C.

--A good AMR can be
your best friend...--

[This message was edited by Hodag on Nov 26, 2000 at 01:31.]

 

[Angel Of Death]

I wouldn't mind seeing a 20mm, just so long as it's not a freakin Vulcan. Speaking in terms of balance, that would be like going against a guy armed with a sword while all you have is a toothpick.

Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines

 

[Doccers]

the guns...

The machine guns at the end of SPR (Browning .30 1919 air-cooled machine guns) were used throughout WWII, Korea, and even some in the Vietnam war as I recall reading...

They're extraordinarily heavy, they're a bit heavier than an M-60, have ROUGHLY the same ammunition size (.30 and .308...), and about the same firing rate. So, in essense, the M-60 and the tank-mounted .308 machine gun (whose name escapes me now but has been discussed more than once in here), are the current weapons in the 1919's role.

However, surprisingly enough, the M-60 shares more with the MG-42 that the germans used, than the 1919 browning. (quick-change barrel)

the 1919 was designed after WWI, as a man-portable air-cooled medium machine gun. It was, essentially, a Browning 1917 medium machine gun with a new barrel. (the 1917 was also used in WWII. it had a water-coolant jacket surrounding the barrel, to keep heat down and firing time up. this made it *RATHER HEAVY*.)

the M-2 machine gun was designed (ALSO by browning!) in I think 1920 or 21, with a brand spankin' new round designed to punch through the early armored vehicles of WWI. (they would actually do quite a number of light tanks the nazi's fielded in WWII...)

It *CAN* be portable, and in fact was used by ground troops during desert storm. the "Portable" kit consited of a rather bulky tripod (carried by one guy, who also carries an M-16 or M-4 carbine), the M2 itself (VERY heavy, but can be "Hauled" by one guy) and the ammunition (again, very heavy.) so it's essentially a 3 man crew.

I beleive that in WWII they did have 3-man M2 crews as well, the tripod guy carried an M1 carbine, as did the ammo carrier, while the guy hauling Ma Deuce had a 1911a1 (yet ***ANOTHER*** John Browning weapon... heh). Though most common were the Browning 1919 crews. Also seen in SPR was the light machine gun included with most platoons - the Browning Automatic Rifle. (Yep. Yet another John Browning fave...)

It's suprising to me to this very day that all of our infantry weapons of WWII were designed by 3 men. Garand, Browning, and Thompson. (and Thompson took a few hints from Browning's designs, too.)

ohwell. Anyways, back on topic...

The M-60 is phased out of the military (or is still being phased out) due to it's high weight, low rate of fire, and Pain In The Ass Barrel changing, and the realization that a machine gun in 7.62mm NATO isn't neccicarily needed by ground troops, the 5.56mm is just as good at the ranges they typically work with, and can maintain a much higher rate of fire, and carry more ammunition. (smaller ammo = more ammo carryable!)

HENCE, FN's SAW and Minime are replacing the 7.62 M-60, just like the M-16 replaced the M-14. (it doesn't hurt that, with the M-60 out of the picture, logistics with supplying troops with 2 kinds of ammunition becomes eased.)

I think the only fielded 7.62mm weapon we have anymore is the Remington 700 that the sniper's use... and they don't exactly eat through ammo.

-Doc

I wanna be an elven ranger, I want a life that's full of danger,

 

[Col.Sanders]

Doccers:

The US Army is currently using the 7.62mm FN MAG machinegun as the M240. It's the SAW's bigger brother. It is the MG used on tanks, with a pistol grip and stock added, and from what I hear, it is better in sustained fire than the M60, but a pain to carry around.
Also, either the USArmy or USMC is looking into a 7.62mm semi-automatic sniper rifle, called the Designated Marksman's Rifle. Should be interesting to see what comes of that, because they are admitting that the 5.56mm is not a do-all round.

Angel_of_Death:
I don't think you know what you are talking about. In movies, maybe somebody can haul around a machine gun by themselves. But in real life, the machine gun needs extra ammo, spare barrels and other parts, because it is the only fire support the team may get.
Secondly, the addition of a second man to the MG crew vastly speeds up the firing/reloading/barrel changing process. He can link belts to keep a continuous feed.
The third soldier directs the fire of the MG by spotting the enemy, and also provides self-defense fire if the MG stops firing for some reason. He also carries more ammo.

 

[Angel Of Death]

Are you saying that there is no such thing as an M60 E3? Because if you had a clue what the M60 "E3" (everyone seems to be missing that part) you would know that one man carries it and it is not being phased out since it weighs considerably less than the original M60 and can be fed from a box. And the SAW is also a one man machine gun. Dude, if you've never seen a one man machine gun you're living in WWII days. I'm sorry but you must not know about firearms if you've never heard of a one man machine gun.

Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines

 

[Singaporeangamer]

theres something about machine guns

there are one man machine guns but machine gunners still work in pairs(where i come from at least). yup one guy can haul ass a GPMG(General Purpose Machine Gun) around but one man can't haul ass 600 7.62mm NATO rounds and extra barrels. of course the MG is being carried by one guy, just not the extra parts and ammo.

Also, one fun fact: the guy who carries the extra parts actually deal with more weight then the MG guy... first he is equiped like a normal rifleman then he needs to carry around the 2 boxes of 7.62mm and the extra barrels. If there are still any skeptics out there, a GPMG usually weighs in at 12-17 kilos, now think, you aren't only lugging the GPMG, don't forget your SBO and full pack, all those can easily add up to be at least 30 kilos.

also SAWs(squad assault weapon) are not considered GPMG's, so quit mistaking the SAW for one.

 

[Angel Of Death]

I just want people to know that I'm saying "M60 E3" and not plain "M60". If you look them both up you'll find out that they're not the same. I understand that the "M60" is being faded out, but remember that I'm talking about the "E3". You people need to learn that the "E3" isn't just there for decoration!

Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines

 

[Singaporeangamer]

a M-60 E3 still weighs 8.51 kilos sure the barrel is light BUT it is not safe for overhead fire and is not capable of sustaining a rapid rate of fire of 200 rounds per minute without catastrophic failure of the barrel. While the light weight M60E3 was fielded with the intention to reduce the load carried by the gunner, it's firing limitations and a lower reliability have limited its acceptance in the field.


Also the M-60 E3 IS being phased out from the USN special warfare forces in favour of the SAW.

[This message was edited by hardcoregamer on Nov 28, 2000 at 18:55.]

 

[Angel Of Death]

Well you obviosly hate the M60 E3. Do you have anything negative to say about my other suggestion, the H&K 21E?

Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines

 

[Farrell]

back to the topic...

I think the SAW's great for now. MG's are inherently crew weapons, something out of the scope of INF. The SAW is the smallest and lightest they could have picked. Almost just a beefy assault rifle.

Plus the SAW seems the most reasonable weapon for a single soldier to carry and fire, whereas the M60 is a much more difficult proposition, though I've seen it done (on TV, but not in movies , in military documentary type stuff)so theoretically an M60 would be the biggest gun that should be in this game.

If more MG's are going to be added in 3.0++, I definitely want to see some version of the M60, even if it is being faded out. Not some weird MG nobodies ever heard of.

but, for now, the promise of a SAW is perfect.

 

[Singaporeangamer]

nope

no AOD i don't hate the M60 i just want to state the facts.

The HK-21E would make a good machine gun or the FN M240 (the replacement for the M60) those i agree on, but like what Shakken said, just give'em some time and they will get it done.

 

[Lance201]

Machine Gun

I often posted that it would be nice to have a machinegun with 7,62 calibre or higher. My favourite is the german MG2 (former MG 42) I think without a good machine gun no infantry tactic works !

LCPLO TWENTY

 

[Col.Sanders]

Hardcore Gamer, Thanks

I was loosing my cool there with AOD, but you handled that better than I could.


AOD, I'm trying to have a rational discussion, and you go putting words in my mouth:
"Are you saying that there is no such thing as an M60 E3?"
Go re-read my post, and re-read yours. I said no such thing, then you accuse me of it and go foaming at the mouth.

I am addressing the tactical use of the General-purpose Machine Gun in 7.62mm, wether it be an M60, Hk21e, MG3 / MG42, or M240. The issue is can someone else carry more ammo and hand it to the gunner? From what I see in INF, the gunner could throw his weapon and the ammo-bearer could pick it up, but only if he has enough free bulk. So the gunner, already carrying a 20+ lb weapon, is the only supply of ammo for it.

I am not a professional programmer, but it is unlikely that a feature will be added to pass ammo between players solely to support a 7.62mm MG. Yes, I'd like to see such a feature, but I certainly can't whack it together in half-an hour and email it to the INF team all debugged and ready to plug in to 2.85

[This message was edited by Col.Sanders on Nov 29, 2000 at 11:23.]

 

[brocephus]

machine guns

Do not the Russians have a heavy machine gun that is someting around 12mm. That would be cool.

 

[Angel Of Death]

Sorry everyone, I go a little nuts sometimes.

Anyways, I agree with Hardcoregamer on the M240. Doesn't that gun fire 5 round burst or something like that?

Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines

 

[Col.Sanders]

<h3>M240B 7.62-mm Machine Gun</h3>

</h4>The M240B machine gun is the latest version of the 7.62-mm machine gun. As units are fielded with the M240B, the M60 will be phased out.

The M240B machine gun is designed as a tripod-mounted or bipod-supported 7.62mm machine gun for use by ground forces. Like the M60, the M240B is a fully automatic machine gun, fires from the open-bolt position, and is belt fed, gas operated, and air cooled with fixed headspace and timing.

From US Army Field Manual 17-12-8, LIGHT CAVALRY GUNNERY. It does not mention a select-fire capability, as is usually noted for weapons like the M-16/M-4.</h4>

[This message was edited by Col.Sanders on Nov 29, 2000 at 14:07.]

 

[Angel Of Death]

It also weighs a ton. I'd definately want to see that gun in the game, but with the bulk system that thing is gonna make you slow as all hell.

Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines