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Should GAYS be allowed to MARRY?

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by NTKB, Dec 26, 2003.

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  1. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge New Member

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    :rolleyes:
    I find it ironic that so many in this forum are willing to blindly believe that most Christians want to force America to be a "Christians only" nation (despite the fact that the Christians that formed this country insisted on religious freedom), yet they are unwilling to believe that there are factions in this country that will do anything to destroy Christianity.

    Maybe its because I live here instead of half way around the world, that I'm able to see whats going on here.

    I don't believe that "gay marriage" is a war on our culture. I do believe that many of the factions that are pushing for gay marriage are doing so not because they give a damn about the freedom of gays but because they know they can use such changes in the law to attack Christianity.

    So to revisit my main point, if you remove the government from our bedrooms then you remove the power for any group to impose their will on us (either radical Christians or radical Athiests).

    When it comes to discrimination laws, everyone is under the jurisdiction of the government. As I stated before, churches in America have already been successfully sued for not hiring gays ... legalizing "gay marriage" will end up with churches being sued for not marrying gays.

    Already in Canada (which many American progressives and Democrats see as a model for our future) if a pastor preaches that homosexuality is a sin he can be charged with a hate crime. So to assume that dragging pastors and churches into court is not on the agenda for at least some progressives is naive.
     
  2. jaunty

    jaunty If you disagree with me, you're wrong.

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    I've been to the US, and not just as a tourist, I've got relatives who live there, and my TV tries to Americanise me every day. Believe me, I have a pretty bloody good idea of what American life is like.

    If you think the US is anything other than a christian state, borderlining a christian theocracy, you're a twit. So lets get a few things straight:

    1) There is no terrorist threat. But that's for another thread entirely.

    2) Freedom of religion exists in the "You're free to practice the religion we tell you to" sense. If you can honestly say that muslims aren't looked down on in the US, then I can honestly say that you're either ignorant or a liar. And don't tell me that just because you personally don't look down on them that I'm wrong. You are not America.

    3) The state endorses Christianity. It's on your money, in the pledge, and every other bloody place else than can fit the word "God"

    4) The only change that "the secularists" want to bring about is to render the state religion-nuetral. It's what your founding fathers intended.

    5) You sound like every Fox News and WND pudnit I've read or watched. All they do is screech and wail about some hidden underground faction out to destroy the forces of christianity for good and turn America into a heathen atheist state.

    If you want to see an example of somebody who REALLY wants to see christianity destroyed, then stop looking at people who try to enforce what the creaters of the country had in mind and start looking at people like ME.

    So, repeat after me:

    I, Zündfolge, hereby acknowledge that legalising the civil union of gays has absolutely nothing to do with religion. The people who I claim are trying to destroy christianity by giving legal rights to gay people are really just secularists who want to make sure that the state does not sanction or adopt an official religion, which it has done in the form of Christianity. I also realise that many of these people are indeed christians themselves. Furthermore I acknowledge that the imaginary man I worship, or that anybody else worships has no place in the State, Federal or Local government of my Country, County or Town.

    Trust me, you'll feel better and sound a whole lot smarter.
     
  3. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge New Member

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    :rolleyes:

    Jaunty, I've lived here for all of my 34 years ... there is a war against Christianity here. From the ACLU to the DNC there is a concerted effort to make the official "religion" of the US Athiesm.

    You are so blinded by your anti American bigotry and hatred you are no better then one who burns crosses or wraps themselves in explosives and kills children. I have lost all hope that you are capable of rational thought.

    YOU are the twit and I'm done with your asinine anti-logical bullsh*t ramblings ... thank you and goodnight :rolleyes:
     
  4. jaunty

    jaunty If you disagree with me, you're wrong.

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    If there is a war on christianity, which I still say there isn't, it could rage on for another 20 years and the ground gained still wouldn't bring the US back to the nuetral point it was supposed to be at. I think somewhere along the line in the war with the Godless Commies, you people forgot that the US was created with the view of having a godless state.

    P.S George Washington thinks you're a puritannical kook;

    Emphasis added. Have a nice day.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2003
  5. _Zd_Phoenix_

    _Zd_Phoenix_ Queen of BuFdom

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    I know this is off topic, but how can someone's opinion make them as bad as that?!?!?? Just because it's viewed as anti-US surely doesn't give right to accusing people like that...
     
  6. DEFkon

    DEFkon Shhh

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    My 2 cents.

    Should gay marriages be allowed? Yes. However i think there really needs to be some sort of way to "prove" your gay. The largest problem with Gay marriages as stated before is the huge problem of abusing the system. Just think of all the people that would just say they were gay so they could enjoy the benifits of all the free ensurance, and tax stuff.

    Assuming that you skipped the wedding, and just got married the quick way, you'd just have to pay for the certificate and bingo. If one person was working and the other wasn't.. it wouldn't matter. Both would get Health coverage for example. It's the perfect scam. The insurance company can't do anything about it. Some guy can just say "hey want some free health care ect ect?" cool lets get married. They don't have to actually be gay, in love or even live in the same country. They fill out the papers and boom. There's No way that the Insurance company or Goverment can't prove that your NOT gay.. and you can always get divorced and say Nah.. i'm not gay anymore... cause there's nothing legally binding that says you have to prove that your gay or that your going to stay that way... maybe your just Bisexual.

    And if they let you Marry more than one person... Then hell ya.. The friend that works at Microsoft or some other nice job... can support Mulitiple people weeeeee!! Maybe he'll charge people a modest fee like 1000 bucks for the privledge to marry him.
     
  7. jaunty

    jaunty If you disagree with me, you're wrong.

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    And there's some magical universal force which says hetrosexual couples can't or don't do this?

    Which of the following do you feel is easier to tell yourself:

    1) "I'm wrong."
    2) "I'm not wrong, he just hates me and is worse than the KKK and suicide bombers put together"
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2003
  8. Excelsiore

    Excelsiore Binary Liberation Front

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    Marriage really has very little to do with the church, it's a worldly thing, as Luther said. At one point the church even tried to outlaw marriage if i remember correctly. ;)

    Marriage has until recently been a matter either between families (arranged marriages) or between two individuals. I saw nothing wrong with gay marriages as such...
     
  9. jaeg_dos

    jaeg_dos New Member

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    Churches never have been nor will ever be forced to hire gay employees by any government here in the US. Please get this ridiculous notion out of your heads, SaraP and Zundfolge. If you truly believe this and aren't just saying it for sake of argument, then you both have some seriously misconstrued beliefs regarding the role of US governments.

    That said, you know you you've hit upon something positive when the loonies come out of the woodwork to oppose it. Forced integration of schools in '52 and '53 was less about better education for black students and much more about changing the people who were against integration to begin with. It happened then, as it has numerous other times in US history, and it'll keep on happening. Interestingly enough, the absence of said "loonies" would probably be disasterous. Without them we'd be propelled into the hyper-liberal surrealities of Europe.

    Either way, more states will likely recognize homosexual couples in the years to come and eventually it will be a non-issue. Opponents shouldn't get too strung out, however. The Defense of Marriage Act will keep those Godless liberals off your back somewhat. :D
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2003
  10. SaraP

    SaraP New Member

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    You seem to not understand the difference between theory and practice -- the U.S. government should not be able to do so, but in fact can and does.

    Example: The Evangelical Covenant Church is currently being sued under Chigago's gay-rights laws for employment discrimination because it requires that all full time faculty at North Park University -- a private Christian college owned and operated by the church -- be Christians who adhere to the church's doctrines. A part-time teacher at the college claims that this policy is discriminatory against gays (homosexuality is against ECC's doctrines) and wants the court to force the church to change its policy and to hire her full-time.

    This is exactly the kind of case you are claiming can't happen. Well guess what...it not only CAN happen, it IS HAPPENING!
     
  11. jaeg

    jaeg PopeyeTurbo

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    Chruches do have to adhere to a looser version of equal oppourtunity employment guidelines. That is, when hiring non-professionals (clergy, etc), they must respect the rather lengthy set of rules all other employers in the US must follow. However they do have the right to discriminate against people that don't prescribe to church doctrine. The question in the case you mentioned is whether doctrinal objections supersede the rules set down by the equal oppourtunity employment regime which does not permit an employer to ask a potential employee about their sexual behavior, among many other things. Other aspects of the rules with similar circumstances are constantly tested by courts as are a whole hell of a lot of other labor cases each year.

    Notice that nowhere in there is "Illinois law mandates that 10% of all church employees must be gayer than a French horn". And, despite what Rush Limbaugh might have said yesterday or what you might have read on www.thegovernmentwantstoeatyourbabies.com, courts don't award jobs to the victor of a civil or criminal or anything case. It's not even remotely within the reach of the government to do so or even think so.

    Last but not least, anybody can bring almost any grievance they have to a civil court. So no, the homos are not invading your local church soup kitchen as part of a government-sponsered plot to undermine Christianity. But one lesbian in Chicago does want full-time benfits as a teacher.

    Are there really people that live in such a state of hysterical paranoia like this?
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2003
  12. masamax

    masamax Spoon

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    But has it happened yet? All you have presented is a case at trial. That's like saying someone charged with murder committed a murder!
     
  13. MetalMickey

    MetalMickey Banned

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    Why do people see an ideological war on christianity as a bad thing? Weve waged one here over the last 30 years and the country is a far better place for it.
     
  14. SaraP

    SaraP New Member

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    However, the courts can and are currently trying to say "You have doctrinal objections to hiring gays? Whoop de ****in' do, too bad."
     
  15. jaunty

    jaunty If you disagree with me, you're wrong.

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    Saying and Doing are vastly different things. Until people are being awarded jobs by courts, or being forced to hire people because a court said so, please refer to the following large, bold, underlined text; SHUT UP

    Now show me rulings that back up what you just accused them of doing, or refer to the large, bold, underlined text above. And I'm not talking about a WND or FNC article about a ruling, I'm talking about the ruling.
     
  16. masamax

    masamax Spoon

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    Well said Jaunty.

    The fact is gays want to be EQUAL. There are going to be positive and negative aspects of this just like making blacks equal caused (AND CONTINUES TO CAUSE). Frankly, using the excuse "Oh, but so and so would have to do such bad things" (snicker) is a copout. Gays deserve the same rights as every other couple. One can't deny them that based on things they think MIGHT happen that maybe could possible offend people.

    As for gay people on minority lists, have you LOOKED at today's world. Does anyone remembed that 17 year old gay boy who was killed? I can't remember his name but he was beated to death viciously because he was gay. It's not like he was the first one. Homosexuals have been persecuted for thousasnds of years. Just because the reason they are in a minority is their sexual preference doesn't make it less so. It's esspecially the areas of the US like the southern states where people still wave their confederate flags and complain about n*****s taking all their job opprotunities etc etc etc.
     
  17. jaunty

    jaunty If you disagree with me, you're wrong.

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    If you have ADD and can't manage to read this not-so-huge-because-there's-alot-of-quotes post, scroll to the bottom for a brief summary



    His name was Matthew Shepard. He was beaten to death because he liked getting cornholed/doing a bit of cornholing.

    The fears expressed by Zündfolge and SaraP come from their tainted observations of what's happened in the past with other minorities. That has to be understood and accepted for the rediculous exaggerations of fact which they are. They're scared that the government will use Gay Marriage as an excuse to make a grab for power and foce everybody to accept gays as natural. Oh no. What a total fucking travesty that would be. This would of course, be part of the conspiracy to destroy Christianity in America turn America atheist, as evidenced by the latest tinfoil hat theory to come out of Zundfolge. (Which must be correct because he reads Reason magazine, and they certainly don't serve any corporate agenda whatsoever! Fair and balanced all the way!) See below (boldface is mine).



    I didn't even truncate the irrelevant stuff, lest I be accused of distorting the evidence or taking it out of context.

    Now here's why they didn't just say "gays should be allowed to get married" and let that be the end of it. Their problem, from my understanding, doesn't actually reside with the marriage of gays. They're indifferent to that. They are however, batshit fucking insane paranoid. So they should be, too. On a global basis, they're in a serious minority. Outside of the US, I don't think I've heard anybody say "Well it'd be nice if gays could get married but I think the government might try and take over the world if we let them.**" Evidence of the paranoia is courtosey of SaraP (as if the above isn't enough), who's told us how woefully awful the courts are, but didn't actually show us why (I'm still waiting to see the court ruling which forces someone to hire, wed, or otherwise accept a gay person for any reason.)



    Like I said, show me.

    I like this gem from page 1, too;



    Oh fucking no, how dare we protect what's probably the most persecuted social group in history from being beaten to death just because they're gay. But then again, you're right, nobody would do something like that in America anyw... o wai

    The worst thing about all of this though. The thing that really makes my blood boil, is that you don't even care what these laws mean. Ask Matthew Shepard's parents if they think Hate Crime Laws are unfair. Ask them if they think that it's unfair to prosecute people for fucking killing someone just because they hate that person's choice of lifestyle. Ask them if they think it's unfair to punish people not only for first degree murder, but to punish them for committing it for such a stupid, meaningless reason. Ask them if it's unfair that their child be protected from persecution because he likes it in the butt. I think their answer would either be a resounding "GET THE FUCK OFF OUR PROPERTY!" or "Do you even need to ask?"

    To you, this is just big government trying to make itself bigger and force <hated agenda of the week> onto <current majority group under threat from hated agenda of the week>. You don't care about the people this will benefit. All you care about is making sure you slam these laws down because you're so deluded and self-righteous that you actually think the government even gives enough of a shit about you to actually harm you.

    This is not a fucking issue of government. I'm more anti-government than the entire forum put together, and by some twist of fate, I manage to see that THIS HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH DISCRIMINATION LAWS, NOR AFFIRMATIVE ACTION, NOR YOUR FAVOURITE WACKY LIBERAL PINKO JUDGE AND HIS DECISIONS. It's about fags. They want to get married to other fags. You can't handle it because you live in the fucking stone age. Trust me on this one, people. I do happen to live in the city with more gays than any other city on Earth. Believe me, a couple of guys kissing and saying some magic words is not the end of the world. The rapture won't come early, Jesus won't hate you for not meeting your fag-death quota, and the world will not end on new years eve because a guy got another guy's turd on his johnson. I'd say the lack of anything more dangerous than a Strela launcher in a certain desert country is slightly more important than where people are sticking their dicks or tongues.

    So in conclusion; You're heartless cunts.


    ADHD version: Zundfolge and SaraP are scared the government will use Gay Marriage as an excuse to push new interpretations of law onto people, including hate crimes legislation, which is a terrible thing because we should all be free to get away with beating the shit out of people for being different. The US was founded on freedom, and god damnit, that means the freedom to hate stuff and beat the shit out of it just because it's different!

    And Sara, I'm still waiting to see that court ruling.
    Not your interpretation of a court ruling, or Birt Hume's interpretation of a court ruling, just the court ruling as it was entered into public record.

    _________________________________________
    **It's called hyperbole, don't even fucking try to pick me up on it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2003
  18. Grim_Reaper ~UFS~

    Grim_Reaper ~UFS~ You're all gay and stupid.

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    as always, jaunty given em the smackdown...

    god i love these forums
     
  19. Dank

    Dank Mac Guru

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    Haha, that was fuckin awesome jaunty!
     
  20. Dank

    Dank Mac Guru

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    Perhaps one of the greatest things ever posted on the INF forums...

     
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