What are the main differences for this lot...and what is the difference in ability - would SAS generally wup SEAL butt??
Or are they not comparable?
Or are they not comparable?
SAS vs SEALs vs GSG9 vs GIGN
- Thread starter cleve-ntt
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The general difference is that Seal teams are very reliant on intelligence. Aside from being the forefathers of all modern day commando's, SAS are very capable in Long Range Recons and battalfield scenerios. Even Seals concede that the masters in the American military for long range recon are Force Recon, a couple of companies within Recon batallions within the Marine Corps. This is why (and a well known fact) that the CIA uses Marines for Paramilitary operations more than any other branch of our service. Seals are specialized, While both Seal and Marine Recon Units fall under the jursidiction of the Chief of Naval Operations (as well as Marine FAST (Fleet anti terrorist strike teams) Seal teams are used when probability of good intelligence is high due to the high exposure and risk if failure happens. SAS are a much more capable light infantry unit and would probably kick the **** out of our Seals in an arbatrary fire fight.
Edit: (gotta stop hitting this button) I think the GSG9 are similar to Seals in their capacity. Light infantry with realiance on intel.
Edit: (gotta stop hitting this button) I think the GSG9 are similar to Seals in their capacity. Light infantry with realiance on intel.
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I don't think those units are really comparable. They were all founded with different things in mind.
The answer would depend on what particular category of betterness you were talking about I expect.
GIGN and GSG9 are police-ey units focused on counter-terrorism. Apparently GIGN have some of the best marksmen in the world. I think GSG9 are technically a police unit. Both are very much about "black" type operations.
SEALs are maritime. Most of what they're able to do on land they're probably able to do after inserting by sub or dinghy and ideally without anyone noticing they've been there.
The SBS would probably be our equivalent of the SEALs.
The SAS started out as a commando unit for hitting german airfields. Since then they've learned all sorts of new stuff including the CT stuff. They do an immense amount of stuff considering their size and considering other countries seem to seperate it out into seperate units.
Even if one unit was better at one task where their responsibilites overlapped you still have to bear in mind that they perform other tasks and they aren't neccesarily called in under the same circumstances.
The answer would depend on what particular category of betterness you were talking about I expect.
GIGN and GSG9 are police-ey units focused on counter-terrorism. Apparently GIGN have some of the best marksmen in the world. I think GSG9 are technically a police unit. Both are very much about "black" type operations.
SEALs are maritime. Most of what they're able to do on land they're probably able to do after inserting by sub or dinghy and ideally without anyone noticing they've been there.
The SBS would probably be our equivalent of the SEALs.
The SAS started out as a commando unit for hitting german airfields. Since then they've learned all sorts of new stuff including the CT stuff. They do an immense amount of stuff considering their size and considering other countries seem to seperate it out into seperate units.
Even if one unit was better at one task where their responsibilites overlapped you still have to bear in mind that they perform other tasks and they aren't neccesarily called in under the same circumstances.
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I remember an artical a few years ago by an x SAS giving his top 10 of the verious special forces I cant remember exactly where people were but I do know that the Israeli Special Forces came top with the austrailian SAS beating the UK ..... I think the UK's came 7th, unfortantly he (and from some storys I've heared) didn't rate the US special forces very highly.
-How.
-How.
The_Pikeman said:
That does not surprise me. Special forces are direcly linked to the government that deploys them. Our government has been reluctant in the past decade or so to deploy para-military or special operators on behalf of the **** story that goes on now. My Wifes brother was an Israeli commando, her other brother was a paratrooper and her other brother was an infantryman, her sister is now a soldier in in palistinian controlled areas. I suppose its a different level of expertise when you train to keep your families and loved ones safe who live only miles away from harms way.
http://students.engr.scu.edu/~jabraham/specwar/specops/CTindex.html
A five man GIGN team wearing their trademark ballistic visors. These visors are proofed against 9mm rounds at point-blank range. The point man is using the Manurhin MR73 revolver chambered in .357 Magnum, another GIGN trademark.
A five man GIGN team wearing their trademark ballistic visors. These visors are proofed against 9mm rounds at point-blank range. The point man is using the Manurhin MR73 revolver chambered in .357 Magnum, another GIGN trademark.
GSG-9 is a police counter-terror unit; think of them as the world's most badass SWAT team. All of 'em are cops, although many have previous military experience.
I can't even believe I'm entering into this foray. 
First of all, GSG9(Grenzschutzgruppe-9) and GIGN(Groupe d'Intervention de la Gendarmerie Nationale) are both police counterterrorism teams similar to US SWAT teams, although the comparison even there is small. I would really only compare both of those groups to the relatively small number of full-time US SWAT Teams.
USN SEAL's (SeaAirLand) and British and Aussie SAS (Special Air Service) are military units consisting of several small, specially trained groups.
I'm definitely not trying to pick a fight, but I am not surprised by the reaction of Henry the V, a US Marine, to throw Force Recon out there. Once a Marine, always a Marine. The US Army also has Delta, Special Forces (Green Berets) and the Army Rangers. The US Air Force has Pararescue. Virtually every unit within the US Military has specialized units of some sort. Hell, Poland has GROM (Grupa Reagowania Operacyjno Mobilnego), Russia has the SPETSNAZ GRU (Special Forces of the Main Intelligence Department of the General Staff of the Russian Army)
The Israelis actually have many special services, all specialized units bearing different name and numerical designations. Their infantry/reconnaisance units are called Sayerets, and I believe that there are four of them out of different bases. They also have an undercover IDF SF unit that operates in the occupied territories. The Israeli military structure is relatively complex, well, at least for someone not from Israel, but their military is considered one of the best in the world. And I'm not getting into a political debate here, just strictly military expertise.
My whole point in this is that each of these units are very capable, very specialized, units, who are deployed to different areas of the globe, for relatively specific missions. They cannot be compared. The whole "my team can kick your team's ass" is pointless, although unit rivalries definitely serve to boost morale, and sense of esprit-de-corps. In fact, most of the special forces units throughout the US and throughout the world often conduct training exercises together and have served alongside each other in numerous conflicts. All are professionals and specialists in what they do, but many serve different purposes dependent upon the situation.
While true that Force Recon in the Marine Corps is a formidable force, and tried and true professionals with what they do, they serve an entirely different function than Rangers, who are specifically battalion sized elements of light infantry. (Instead of a company of Force Recon within a USMC battalion, they are a battalion sized element, not serving in a separate brigade) Not better, not worse, different.
US Army Special Forces, a longtime favorite of President John F. Kennedy, serve an ENTIRELY different purpose. Whereas a USMC or Army Ranger Unit may contain teams of soldiers, those soldiers are primarily younger, lower ranking soldiers, with NCO's and Officers of higher rank supervising, in a normal military structure. In Special Forces, or at least in the active detachments, or assigned to A -Teams, are all NonComissioned Officers, with generally one commissioned officer assigned to the team. All have a fair amount of military experience already, and all are highly trained specialists within the team, with their own series of MOS' (military occupational specialties - the 18 series). They also each have one member trained in freefall and another in combat diving. They have 5 primary missions: Foreign Internal Defense, Unconventional Warfare, Counterterrorism, Reconnaissance and Direct Action. Under the scope of these missions, they also have a separate primary mission, and generally train other armies, diplomatic factions, and train in humanitarian and civic action programs in other friendly countries.
So, Henry, I hope I didn't offend you in any way, my whole point is that comparison is pointless. I appreciate your service, and I would not argue the fact that the USMC is one of the best fighting units in the world. But in all honesty, no one group, branch of service is really better than another, they are all impressive groups of volunteers, and trained professionals. And that includes GSG9 and GIGN, and every variation of Special Weapons and Tactics or Counterterrorism squads throughout the world.
Whew! Sorry to go off on a rant.
First of all, GSG9(Grenzschutzgruppe-9) and GIGN(Groupe d'Intervention de la Gendarmerie Nationale) are both police counterterrorism teams similar to US SWAT teams, although the comparison even there is small. I would really only compare both of those groups to the relatively small number of full-time US SWAT Teams.
USN SEAL's (SeaAirLand) and British and Aussie SAS (Special Air Service) are military units consisting of several small, specially trained groups.
I'm definitely not trying to pick a fight, but I am not surprised by the reaction of Henry the V, a US Marine, to throw Force Recon out there. Once a Marine, always a Marine.
The US Army also has Delta, Special Forces (Green Berets) and the Army Rangers. The US Air Force has Pararescue. Virtually every unit within the US Military has specialized units of some sort. Hell, Poland has GROM (Grupa Reagowania Operacyjno Mobilnego), Russia has the SPETSNAZ GRU (Special Forces of the Main Intelligence Department of the General Staff of the Russian Army)The Israelis actually have many special services, all specialized units bearing different name and numerical designations. Their infantry/reconnaisance units are called Sayerets, and I believe that there are four of them out of different bases. They also have an undercover IDF SF unit that operates in the occupied territories. The Israeli military structure is relatively complex, well, at least for someone not from Israel, but their military is considered one of the best in the world. And I'm not getting into a political debate here, just strictly military expertise.
My whole point in this is that each of these units are very capable, very specialized, units, who are deployed to different areas of the globe, for relatively specific missions. They cannot be compared. The whole "my team can kick your team's ass" is pointless, although unit rivalries definitely serve to boost morale, and sense of esprit-de-corps. In fact, most of the special forces units throughout the US and throughout the world often conduct training exercises together and have served alongside each other in numerous conflicts. All are professionals and specialists in what they do, but many serve different purposes dependent upon the situation.
While true that Force Recon in the Marine Corps is a formidable force, and tried and true professionals with what they do, they serve an entirely different function than Rangers, who are specifically battalion sized elements of light infantry. (Instead of a company of Force Recon within a USMC battalion, they are a battalion sized element, not serving in a separate brigade) Not better, not worse, different.
US Army Special Forces, a longtime favorite of President John F. Kennedy, serve an ENTIRELY different purpose. Whereas a USMC or Army Ranger Unit may contain teams of soldiers, those soldiers are primarily younger, lower ranking soldiers, with NCO's and Officers of higher rank supervising, in a normal military structure. In Special Forces, or at least in the active detachments, or assigned to A -Teams, are all NonComissioned Officers, with generally one commissioned officer assigned to the team. All have a fair amount of military experience already, and all are highly trained specialists within the team, with their own series of MOS' (military occupational specialties - the 18 series). They also each have one member trained in freefall and another in combat diving. They have 5 primary missions: Foreign Internal Defense, Unconventional Warfare, Counterterrorism, Reconnaissance and Direct Action. Under the scope of these missions, they also have a separate primary mission, and generally train other armies, diplomatic factions, and train in humanitarian and civic action programs in other friendly countries.
So, Henry, I hope I didn't offend you in any way, my whole point is that comparison is pointless. I appreciate your service, and I would not argue the fact that the USMC is one of the best fighting units in the world. But in all honesty, no one group, branch of service is really better than another, they are all impressive groups of volunteers, and trained professionals. And that includes GSG9 and GIGN, and every variation of Special Weapons and Tactics or Counterterrorism squads throughout the world.
Whew! Sorry to go off on a rant.
I think the regular gendarmes use it as well. But they just have ordered a brand new SIG pistol. I can't remember the name. It's SIG Pro 20/22 or something like that? So I guess the GIGN will switch as well.C.Chan said:
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Wow, thanks for that.
Hey, if anyone can find that SAS dude's top 10 List thing, please post.
That would be nice.
Thanks
Hey, if anyone can find that SAS dude's top 10 List thing, please post.
That would be nice.
Thanks
Should the dude in front be using a Desert Eagle? The bestest handgun know to man? Any why dont his backup have AWP's! They could jump around the corner and headshot the terrorists! MP5's are rubbish, they take loads of hits to kill someone, did they loose the last round or something?
Kuroshio Apocal
Sucka Free
If the people on this forum were on SOFs nuts any moreso, they'd be pubes .
Serious now. Ugh. Don't call them USN SEALs. They ain't Fleet, they ain't Seabees, they are SOCOM and not under the CNO. Ship's company (guys from Combat Systems or Weapons department, mainly GMs) handles most VBSS (raiding enemy vessels). I really don't see why the Navy even has SEALs, they do a mission the Marines could do, and they barely support the Fleet. But that is above my low-ass paygrade.
.Serious now. Ugh. Don't call them USN SEALs. They ain't Fleet, they ain't Seabees, they are SOCOM and not under the CNO. Ship's company (guys from Combat Systems or Weapons department, mainly GMs) handles most VBSS (raiding enemy vessels). I really don't see why the Navy even has SEALs, they do a mission the Marines could do, and they barely support the Fleet. But that is above my low-ass paygrade.
Kuroshio Apocal
Sucka Free
After re-reading my last post, I just wanted to make sure that it didn't come off like I don't respect SEALs and what they do. Although I do, as all good Fleet-bound trainees do, laugh at people who bitch, moan and cry (especially crying, because it means you are a big pu$$y) when they wash out of the SPECWAR pipeline and go to the Fleet in their source rating.
The funniest thing I saw was some dumbass running out of Gunnery Barracks in Great Lakes, IL, tears streaming out of his eyes, arms flapping, screaming, "They're sending me to a ship! They're sending me to a ship!"
Welcome to the Navy, loser.
Although I am slightly pissed that he was allowed to become Gunner's Mate, a proud and respected rate. Tons of motivated people are willing to become fleet GMs, why take some asshat who is too goddamned pu$$y to get through the initial SPECWAR selection.
The funniest thing I saw was some dumbass running out of Gunnery Barracks in Great Lakes, IL, tears streaming out of his eyes, arms flapping, screaming, "They're sending me to a ship! They're sending me to a ship!"
Welcome to the Navy, loser.
Although I am slightly pissed that he was allowed to become Gunner's Mate, a proud and respected rate. Tons of motivated people are willing to become fleet GMs, why take some asshat who is too goddamned pu$$y to get through the initial SPECWAR selection.
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Thanks for clearing that up, I was a little confused by your last post. Especially saying to not call them USN Seals, then saying you don't know why the Navy even has them.
BTW, whaddaya mean about people in the forums being on SOF's nuts? I was a tad confused.
And I don't know jack **** about the regular Navy, other than my grandfather served in WWII, my uncle served in Vietnam and my cousin was murdered in San Diego while in the Navy.
Freon said:
Yes gendarmerie/police/douanes switched for a sig pro 2009. Beside that GIGN has the right to choose whatever they want like most spec op team.
I think All metionned groups are good. They are the result of a strict selection. All I can say is the GIGN has the best shooting school in the world.