Religious/Evolutionary Debate Thread

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bobtheking

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ReD_Fist said:
well if believing evolution is what people want,go for it,but not me.I thought it was stupid way back when i first heard of darwin,and it still is the most unproven,illogical,no one can explain what ever happend to the mid term evolutes.
it is no less proven than many other 'theories' that you probably accept without even thinking about it. evolution is so well understood that we can make predictions about variance in mutations and genes with incredible precision and accuracy. the only difference between evolution and other more accepted theories is the evidence is more complicated and harder to observe. this does not make it any less valid. it is not science's job to attempt to educate willfully ignorant people.

if you are as open minded as you claim, do some research about allele frequency and how it relates to microevolution. it is observed and predictions are made for microevolution, but the principle behind it (ie it is not specific to allele frequency) applies to all of evolution. it is just harder for major genetic changes to occur, but there is no reason they can't happen. the mechanism in cell reproduction is not perfect, when this occurs in gametes you get mutation.

i don't claim to know exactly what is going on here, i'm not into biology, but until you at least get a slight grip on the stuff stop making assertions you can't defend.

lastly, stop with this ****ing bull**** of denying the existance of transitional forms. you want to know one of the reasons why science doesn't participate in 'debate' with creationism? look no further than this. it seems to consistently come up. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#morphological_intermediates
Thus, we expect that organisms lived in the past which were intermediate in morphology between humans and chimpanzees. Over the past century, many spectacular paleontological finds have identified such transitional hominid fossils. <image>
just because you refuse to see it doesn't mean it isn't there. its not like this isn't the only example, there are 4 others on this page, there is a very complete horse evolution hierarchy that has been posted, and there is this new carnivore->herbivore find that you also ignore.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/specimen.html

sometimes i think creationists (possibly subconciously) deny evidence that obviously exists to keep up their image of being persecuted. there is really no other explanation for repeatedly ignoring it aside from stupidity. neither choice is good for them.
Stilgar said:
Why do you persist so?
i have no idea.
 

ReD_Fist

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Mr Proph...."""Why is my faith subject to the laws of evidence and yours is not?"""

Well just being formed here on this earth,or whatever we were so called evolved from,doesn't explain the emotion,intel,and physics of anything as HUMANS ,there must be more to it,as like i said a while back,everyone on the face of the earth has a feeling there is somthing more than just flesh and has the idea of good and evil.


"""Why is my faith wrong when we provide this evidence and yours is right when there is no evidence at all?"""

Well the "provide the evidence" part is the prob,you NEED to prove it,if one believes they arn't the last word and believes there is a creator you DON'T NEED to prove.So the the proof falls on the side of science.and or to disprove there is a god.

And yes bringing up evolution on the part of time vs time,hell ya we evolved,so has those other things,animals etc etc,however can you evolve a one cell item to form a cow? a dog? a new cell,wich then forms a human,a fish,if all this stuff was all done by simple science why cant we just recreate it ourselvs.There is evolving going on all the time,but the sun aint gonna turn into a jellyfish,who has emotions and feelings,all because of some matter got switched around.
 
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ReD_Fist

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Bobthe....""""just because you refuse to see it doesn't mean it isn't there.""""

Hmm I thought thats what you were lacking in ,but then again the bible says nothing,nothing at all right?
 

bobtheking

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ReD_Fist said:
Bobthe....""""just because you refuse to see it doesn't mean it isn't there.""""

Hmm I thought thats what you were lacking in ,but then again the bible says nothing,nothing at all right?
no, no it doesn't. it says absolutely nothing. my idea of an invisible retarded child and/or festering pile of **** creating the universe is exactly as valid as the one put forth by the bible. no more, no less. there is absolutely dick evidence for creationism, the only arguments 'for' it in your mind are fallacious arguments against evolution.

thank you for ignoring the arguments against your claims against evolution again. didn't see that coming. not at all. i was totally not expecting you to make assertions you can't defend.
 

ReD_Fist

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bobtheking said:
no, no it doesn't. it says absolutely nothing. my idea of an invisible retarded child and/or festering pile of **** creating the universe is exactly as valid as the one put forth by the bible. no more, no less. there is absolutely dick evidence for creationism, the only arguments 'for' it in your mind are fallacious arguments against evolution.

thank you for ignoring the arguments against your claims against evolution again. didn't see that coming. not at all. i was totally not expecting you to make assertions you can't defend.

Ah read the post above ,theres your rebutt,you cant prove anyhting,but I don't have too,because I know we are not the end all ,say all (humans),and to blow off the bible like that makes you more dense than me,,sheeez....
 

bobtheking

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ReD_Fist said:
Ah read the post above ,theres your rebutt,you cant prove anyhting,but I don't have too,because I know we are not the end all ,say all (humans),and to blow off the bible like that makes you more dense than me,,sheeez....
the burden of proof is on anyone or anything that proposes an answer to our origins. that means both evolution and creationism. evolution is living up to the burden, and building on it constantly.

now for the last ****ing time, stop saying i can't prove anything. there is mountains of evidence for evolution, creationism and evolution are not on equal ground. they are not comparable at all. i cannot hope to compile it all here for you, but there is a very small portion of it posted in this thread. if you would bother to read and understand some of it, you would stop with this bull**** of plugging your ears going "lalalalala what? what? you can't prove anything. what? what?" you follow a very typical pattern of demanding evidence then repeatedly ignoring it when it is presented to you, which no one has an obligation to do, you can look it up yourself.

blowing off the bible means nothing. it means the same as blowing off a dr. seuss story as the origin of humanity. it makes you approximately the density of neutronium to blow off the massive amounts of evidence, discoveries, and research supporting evolution.

stand back and look at the ridiculousness of your position. do you even realize what you are saying? it amounts to "i'm right, until you prove me wrong" yeah, real open minded there. even if i or anyone else couldn't prove you wrong, it is a fallacious and intellectually dishonest position to take. you are not right by default simply because your position is old.

can you tell me why any of these other creationism theories are less valid than the christian version: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creationism#Other_creation_beliefs
 

ReD_Fist

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Because the bible has even yet still withstand the test of time,none the less you seem terribly bent on dispoving there is a god only one god.
Why is that ?

I don't think to much of reasons why people don't believe in god.But non believers sure have a bone up there as_. when it comes to a religious folk mentioning or teaching anything about religion.
Why is that?


Afterall if your so sure and confident,
Why does a "god" even have to be rebutted?

If people shut you out,or look down on you,or shame you because you don't believe (or goto church),then that is not a religion God would condone.
It's YOUR free will.
I don't goto church,I should
I smoke cigs and drink
I pray from time to time in my own way

So wait and see, all this evolution is a crock of SH__ wich all these links your saying are so much "evidence" has no relevence at all
bones bones and more bones tiz all it is,bones can't teach you anything about morals,but the bible can.

If I meet you in hell we can talk about it there,hehe be a bit too late then ay?.and of coarse I will be right,youl just be in hell LoL.......................
 
ReD_Fist said:
Well just being formed here on this earth,or whatever we were so called evolved from,doesn't explain the emotion,intel,and physics of anything as HUMANS ,there must be more to it,as like i said a while back,everyone on the face of the earth has a feeling there is somthing more than just flesh and has the idea of good and evil.

Everything except for the Good and Evil crap I more or less agree with. Yeah, our ability to think and have emotions is really great and stuff...but that isn't something that evolution is responsible for explaining really. That's a whole other field of science. I think you are making the idea of people having an intellect bigger than it really is. I mean given our success and technological advance (which has more to do with conditioning than anything) it is kinda given that we'd be the way we are. But it could have just as easily not have happened. I think the religious folks see this as being special and because we were made in God's image. Science folks see this more simply, we just evolved at the right time under the right circumstances. If you look at the studies of civilizations back to primitive times and at the geological timeline...we really have had alot of blind luck going our way. I saw a documentary on this particular Dinosaur, I don't remember the name since I'm not the Dino geek I once was. But this Dinosaur had an advanced brain, more complex than other dinosaurs, making it a good survivalist and what not. Now they compared it to the Human theory of evolution they say that if that Dinosaur had not been knocked off with all the other dinosaurs and made extinct...and had it survived to the present day, it may have evolved into an upright, bi-ped lizard that looked shockingly humanoid in the model they constructed. They say it could have even surpassed us mentally at this point since, after all, it would had alot more time to evolve.

So basically, the ability to communicate our thoughts is really just a side effect of evolution when it is allowed to change an organism to an advanced state without natural phenomenon or other means interferring.

ReD_Fist said:
Well the "provide the evidence" part is the prob,you NEED to prove it,if one believes they arn't the last word and believes there is a creator you DON'T NEED to prove.So the the proof falls on the side of science.and or to disprove there is no god.


No. Like Bob said, you aren't right by default simply for believing. You need to bring more to the table than that.

ReD_Fist said:
And yes bringing up evolution on the part of time vs time,hell ya we evolved,so has those other things,animals etc etc,however can you evolve a one cell item to form a cow? a dog?

Ok so You admit that Evolution is real now but it doesn't explain the origins of life from single cell to multi-cell. Ok I can live with that, thanx for meeting us half-way.

But The way I see it...science is getting better and its doing it fast. Look at what we know now in comparison to say 100 years ago. That's a staggering amount of change. Do you really think that given Science's constant rate of acceleration that it won't eventually figure out how the one cell got to the two cell with evidence like everything else?

Give it time I say.
 

bobtheking

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ReD_Fist said:
Because the bible has even yet still withstand the test of time,none the less you seem terribly bent on dispoving there is a god only one god.
Why is that ?
oh yeah, that grueling test of being blindly believed by lots of people.
I don't think to much of reasons why people don't believe in god.But non believers sure have a bone up there as_. when it comes to a religious folk mentioning or teaching anything about religion.
Why is that?
the only bone up anyone's ass about this currently is creationists trying to get creationism in school.
Afterall if your so sure and confident,
Why does a "god" even have to be rebutted?
why does anything have to be rebutted?
If people shut you out,or look down on you,or shame you because you don't believe (or goto church),then that is not a religion God would condone.
it has nothing to do with god and everything to do with elitist snobs.
So wait and see, all this evolution is a crock of SH__ wich all these links your saying are so much "evidence" has no relevence at all
bones bones and more bones tiz all it is,bones can't teach you anything about morals,but the bible can.
so in your mind whatever religion says is fine as long as they preach your twisted view of morals?

the evidence is very relevant. you are a shining example of rational debate here. ask for evidence, ignore it many times, then finally just declare it irrelevant.

not to mention you are completely wrong. i can't say for sure but i would think evolution is put to good in pharmeceuticals. antibiotics and some vaccines like the flu are influenced by the evolution of their targets. i'm sure you wish we were still drilling holes in people's heads to free the demons though.

then there is just the fact that we want to know our true origins, and not just a fairy tale that makes some people feel good about oppressing themselves and others.
 
ReD_Fist said:
Because the bible has even yet still withstand the test of time,

Oh c'mon. C'mon. Mount Everest has withstood the test of time. The planet Earth has withstood the test of time. The bible has only been around a few thousand years...

But what those religions older than the bible? Oh right, they are worshipped by brown people...they don't count ;)

ReD_Fist said:
I don't think to much of reasons why people don't believe in god.But non believers sure have a bone up there as_. when it comes to a religious folk mentioning or teaching anything about religion.

...You gotta be kidding me....

Go to Catholic school for 12 years and try to sell me that load.
 
Mister_Prophet said:
There is no God.

Monkeys evolved from Man.

Jesus was gay.

Some monkeys are Gay.

The Big bang theory is when the universe performed double anal on itself.

Anyone who disagrees with me is wrong because I'm a priest and also a scientist who fights ninjas on my spare time when I'm not stabbing hookers.

So there you have it. 50 pages later, I still like my initial post the best.
 

ReD_Fist

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Mister_Prophet said:
Oh c'mon. C'mon. Mount Everest has withstood the test of time. The planet Earth has withstood the test of time. The bible has only been around a few thousand years...

But what those religions older than the bible? Oh right, they are worshipped by brown people...they don't count ;)



...You gotta be kidding me....

Go to Catholic school for 12 years and try to sell me that load.

Why not? it's true,aaaaghghgh a picture of jesus on the wall

FREAK OUT !!!aaaghgh wares the ACLU hehe.
 

ReD_Fist

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Mr Proph...."""Ok so You admit that Evolution is real now but it doesn't explain the origins of life from single cell to multi-cell. Ok I can live with that, thanx for meeting us half-way."""

Does this mean possibly you could do a review now hehe.
One thing though,have you ever tried my DM-3pole2k4 level yet?
I would kinda like it to be reviewed because i changed around the sniper rifle,and it's a good map to get it out of your system with reference to how they fouled up the sniper from UT.
One has a reason to be affraid of it now and also is more fun to use,hide ,run and hide if you can.

or the other one wich ever you pick.
 

Nachimir

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The Unitarian Jihad is worth a read:

Greetings to the Imprisoned Citizens of the United States. We are Unitarian Jihad. There is only God, unless there is more than one God. The vote of our God subcommittee is 10-8 in favor of one God, with two abstentions. Brother Flaming Sword of Moderation noted the possibility of there being no God at all, and his objection was noted with love by the secretary.

Greetings to the Imprisoned Citizens of the United States! Too long has your attention been waylaid by the bright baubles of extremist thought. Too long have fundamentalist yahoos of all religions (except Buddhism — 14-5 vote, no abstentions, fundamentalism subcommittee) made your head hurt. Too long have you been buffeted by angry people who think that God talks to them. You have a right to your moderation! You have the power to be calm! We will use the IED of truth to explode the SUV of dogmatic expression!

People of the United States, why is everyone yelling at you??? Whatever happened to … you know, everything? Why is the news dominated by nutballs saying that the Ten Commandments have to be tattooed inside the eyelids of every American, or that Allah has told them to kill Americans in order to rid the world of Satan, or that Yahweh has instructed them to go live wherever they feel like, or that Shiva thinks bombing mosques is a great idea? Sister Immaculate Dagger of Peace notes for the record that we mean no disrespect to Jews, Muslims, Christians or Hindus. Referred back to the committee of the whole for further discussion.

We are Unitarian Jihad. We are everywhere. We have not been born again, nor have we sworn a blood oath. We do not think that God cares what we read, what we eat or whom we sleep with. Brother Neutron Bomb of Serenity notes for the record that he does not have a moral code but is nevertheless a good person, and Unexalted Leader Garrote of Forgiveness stipulates that Brother Neutron Bomb of Serenity is a good person, and this is to be reflected in the minutes.

Beware! Unless you people shut up and begin acting like grown-ups with brains enough to understand the difference between political belief and personal faith, the Unitarian Jihad will begin a series of terrorist-like actions. We will take over television studios, kidnap so-called commentators and broadcast calm, well-reasoned discussions of the issues of the day. We will not try for “balance” by hiring fruitcakes; we will try for balance by hiring non-ideologues who have carefully thought through the issues.

We are Unitarian Jihad. We will appear in public places and require people to shake hands with each other. (Sister Hand Grenade of Love suggested that we institute a terror regime of mandatory hugging, but her motion was not formally introduced because of lack of a quorum.) We will require all lobbyists, spokesmen and campaign managers to dress like trout in public. Televangelists will be forced to take jobs as Xerox repair specialists. Demagogues of all stripes will be required to read Proust out loud in prisons.

We are Unitarian Jihad, and our motto is: “Sincerity is not enough.” We have heard from enough sincere people to last a lifetime already. Just because you believe it’s true doesn’t make it true. Just because your motives are pure doesn’t mean you are not doing harm. Get a dog, or comfort someone in a nursing home, or just feed the birds in the park. Play basketball. Lighten up. The world is not out to get you, except in the sense that the world is out to get everyone.

Brother Gatling Gun of Patience notes that he’s pretty sure the world is out to get him because everyone laughs when he says he is a Unitarian. There were murmurs of assent around the room, and someone suggested that we buy some Congress members and really stick it to the Baptists. But this was deemed against Revolutionary Principles, and Brother Gatling Gun of Patience was remanded to the Sunday Flowers and Banners committee.

People of the United States! We are Unitarian Jihad! We can strike without warning. Pockets of reasonableness and harmony will appear as if from nowhere! Nice people will run the government again! There will be coffee and cookies in the Gandhi Room after the revolution.
 

Cat Fuzz

Qualthwar's Minion. Ph34r!
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Genes mutate, animals adapt, so what? This doesn't prove that all life is the result of a couple of amino acids doing the hokey pokey and suddenly becoming life. There is micro-evolution, which you'd have to be a flat-earth fool to deny, then there is macro-evolution, which you'd have to be a fool to accept. :uppercut: