Poorly Developed Recoil Effect

[keihaswarrior]

Let me get this straight. You're saying that if you fire a projectile out of a weapon with a mass of 1kg it will recoil the same as a weapon with a mass of 10kg as long as the bullet's speed and mass are the same? Interesting. May I please see a physics formula to prove that? And I suppose all of the work done with muzzle breaks and the like is just for show since it has no effect either? Neat. Anyway, I'm still waiting on the original formula I requested, so please just add it to this one. Thanks.

I think both of you are talking about different definitions of recoil. Hurin seems to mean the force of the expanding gases inside the barrel upon the gun.

But practically speaking, the base force that matters is what the shooter's shoulder feels. This would be the force with which the gun's stock pushes against an object in direct contact with it. THIS kinda of recoil is greatly affected by weapon mass. Imagine a weapon that weighed 2 tons, but shot 5.56 ammo... there would basically be no recoil at all, at least none that could be detected without a very sensitive instrument.

Hurin, you need to get a little more practical and listen to Meplat and sublime. The recoil force imparted by the stock on an object in contact with it is the force that matters. Not just the blowback force of the gases inside the barrel.

 

[Logan6]

Well, personally I disagree with the recoil sending the weapon right or left. Especially with modern compensators. I've fired an AKM on full auto and the barrel went straight up, not left or right. The left and right came from me trying to pull it down again!

I've fired all the weapons in this game, and they all seem to work pretty well.

 

[Meplat]

Keishaswarrior- I have an accellerometer. All it will tell you is the force applied, not how quickly. There are force/time measuring devices, but they are very expensive.
You could build one, similar to an early "clockwork" recoil measuring device I've seen, but all it will measure is free recoil impetus, without any regard to the weapon/user interface.



"First of all for all of you that dont know anything, dont claim that the size or weight of the weapon make any diffrence to recoil. Recoil is blowback , so the bullets speed bodyweight and bullet mass are all that technically matter."

And

"If you cant understand this then shut up and go grab a physics text book."

I don't know weither to laugh or cry.
Time for beer.

Meplat-

 

[MP_Duke]

You damn right, what's there to contribute when time and time again have shown that this discussion about recoil amounts to a m00t point...it's all...m000

We can't be reasoned with (at least in this case), that's why we play this game of taking up arms, so put that right in your mouth and chew it

And you are somehow exempt from this because you took the time to come in here and post that?

Thanks for the positive contribution to this discussion.

 

[Shrap]

Hurin, you're one pathetic guy. Or a troll.

You don't know anything about firearms if you state :

"First of all for all of you that dont know anything, dont claim that the size or weight of the weapon make any diffrence to recoil. Recoil is blowback , so the bullets speed bodyweight and bullet mass are all that technically matter."

I, like the others, doesn't know if I should laugh or cry.

 

[Ranger 223]

Meplat, you sir, are my hero. Im being trained on the M249; it is an absolutely WONDERFUL weapon to shoot, but a real bitch to hump around. I read all the manuals, and i guess i just glanced over em, but the whole rear stock folding down, forgot about that alltogether. However, when i get mine, im looking to get a para stock for it, just for mobility's sakes.


I too have had issues with the civvie loads in the "bitch" as we call it. Doesnt like em one bit. Hell, after being spoiled by military grade ammo, i dont like em

 

[geogob]

If you cant understand this then shut up and go grab a physics text book

fuck man! can't you undersand that the weapon construction/caracteristics as an impact on the way recoil is felt by the shooter?! what so hard to understand about this... you surely are kinda slow... or simply a retard.

and put you physics text books up your ass... i'v been studing in physics and engineering for more then 6 years, and many things I've learned are leading me to one conclusion: you are blatantly incompetent.

Finaly, I should never post on this forum after that many beers... i might be a little too direct hehe
\me goes off to grap another one


On a more serious note, please, learn to learn from those who have more experience then you have in life. That way you'll get more positive reactions...

 

[Dr.J]

i can say that im crying. after 2.9 this place is being flooded with people who refuse to admit being wrong and learn from people who are right and have evidence and experience to back it up. pure speculation and 'if you think using f=ma' is very different to the real world. im no genius at physics but simple formulae like f=ma and 90% of the stuff you learn in high school or below oversimplify the situation and dont take into account far too many things to be directly used as a substitute (geogob may want to correct anything ive said wrong in regards to physics, i was horrible at it )

but what i really dont get is how after so much explaination you can still try to say that youre right hurin... grow up. the world does NOT revolve around you nor your ideas .

EDIT:

Originally posted by Hurin (in the XM8 thread):
Although the XM8 is a great gun, so far all you have is a prototype and it needs alot of correction. Although i might know very little about modding i know have quite an expansive knowledge of guns in real life. So here is what i noticed to be unrealitic or miscalculated.

im sure that everyone except you will agree that such a statement has been rendered absurd. it began to lose ground when you made the 5-6th post in this thread.

 

[gal-z]

With the M4A1 muzzle climb is not really an issue. It still moves though, since after u shoot u start breathing again and the shot does move the barrel a bit - direction mostly depends on how you hold it, and definately not straight up.
As for automatic fire, not that I tried that IRL, but I know it should be ineffective, and it is indeed ineffective in INF. When lag doesn't stop me I often come on top in firefights when I use a M16 on semi and others are using automatic weapons. When I lose it was because I didn't know where they were, lagged, or simply played/aimed bad.

 

[Meplat]

Ranger- Umm, Okay.. Don't know if they'll let you alter the issue piece much. It's been a while since I was in, but then, ANY unauthorized alteration (a bit of paint on the front sight..) was definitely frowned upon.

Be glad you're (probably) catching the tail end of the '60 (AKA, the pig) THAT was a tempermental monster. Get a round with a sensitive primer, and you've got some serious metallic origami to deal with.(It's probably been replaced by the M240/FN MAG)

Meplat- (Again offtopic.)

 

[geogob]

im no genius at physics but simple formulae like f=ma and 90% of the stuff you learn in high school or below oversimplify the situation and dont take into account far too many things to be directly used as a substitute (geogob may want to correct anything ive said wrong in regards to physics, i was horrible at it )

Hehe don't worry... you ain't that far off. F = ma is always right... the problem is that there's not just one "F" and one "a" and one "m" to consider. And since the acceleration is the variation of the speed over time, it get's even more complex in the case of firearms because the the complex timings involved in their mecanism. In a way, Hurin is right... the recoil force he define is right, but it's only one force involved not considering many other forces. Just remember the simple drawing of the force vectors on a Box laying on a inclined plane. If you come to me and draw only one vector, you'll get a 1/10 from me... perhaps even a 0 if i'm in a bad mood

 

[Hurin]

I fully undestand the diffrence between the blowback of the gun and the actual recoil, but im saying if you know the real value of recoil for one gun like the mp5, you can figure it out for the rest, by proportinalizing recoil to the formula, obviuolsy assuming you arent using a stock with a spring or something of that nature.

Oh yeah if you are firing a 10kg gun that is identical to a m16a2, and your body weight is 60kg the diffrence in recoil would be 117%, the person with the lighter gun feeling the heavier force, although this doesnot mean that the actual way the gun would rise is the same.

 

[sublime]

I'm still curious as to how using an arbitrary weapon as an arbitrary standard, and subsequently modifying all other weapons by an arbitrary formula based on that standard will make things better in your eyes. And I'm still waiting on those formulas that are so simple.

All I'm trying to get you to realize is that you're oversimplifying things a bit in some areas. Sure the force of the bullet as it's fired (assuming the same caliber) will be the same from gun to gun, but you seem to think that the guns will react the same to that force. That's a gross oversimplification at best and a joke at worst. How can you honestly feel that using one weapon as a baseline and calculating recoil for other weapons based on that one "standard" weapon is better than treating each gun as an individual entity?

Do you think all golf clubs hit the same too? Or that all engines with the same horsepower and torque deliver those forces in the same manner?

 

[geogob]

[...]obviuolsy assuming you arent using a stock with a spring or something of that nature.

Have you even dismantled a rifle?

You know, the first thing that struck me the first time I completely dismantled a rifle (it was a C7) was the impressive size of the recoil spring.

 

[jayhova]

Some interesting facts about mass and recoil

While the human body may have a mass that is many times greater that that of a weapon, it is only concentrated at the rear of the weapon and is therefore not holding the weapon in a stable horizontal or vertical position. Also in most firing positions only a small portion of the upper body is situated directly behind the weapon. Because the human body is mostly fluid on a flexible skeleton, a vast majority of the instantanious mass encoutered after firing the weapon i.e. the mass encoutered without the weapon moving, is the mass of the weapon itself. Instantanious pressure on one shoulder will tend to twist the torso in the direction of the pressure and force the upper body to angle upward.

 

[Meplat]

Hurin, I can take four firearms, of identical weight,identical barrel length, firing identical loads, and being one of the four basic self loading actions, they will "recoil" diffrently. Note the period, indicating "finality". (For those interested, NAME the four basic self loading actions)

Read one of the books I suggested. Do yourself a favor.

Meplat-(Still trying)