Poorly Developed Recoil Effect

[Hurin]

Man, im not trying to sandbag all of infiltration im jsut point ting out issues that need correction, i gave refrence to the artical on the G11 which by the way is a gun being developed for INF, and contains factual data on actual tests and explains why such a project exists. As for a reacoil modification, if someone is willing to help me with modding which i dont know much about im sure i could work hard enough to make a recoil modification mutator.
People can then decide wheter they want to use them on there servers or not.
Thats is all.

 

[sublime]

I was being very serious in my request for information and knowledge. Your link to the G11 page, which I've probably read a dozen times over the years, only provides this tidbit of information about recoil: "Conventional fully automatic fire, even when limited to a burst of a predetermined number of rounds, seldom results in more targets hit. It is generally agreed that if the first round of a burst fired from a conventional assault rifle does not strike the target, the natural rotation of the human torso when subjected to the recoil impulse of weapon will direct the latter rounds of that burst high and to the right (or the left) over the target."

This statement does not allude to any studies that I can see, and the only real data there in the article is for the G11, a rifle that never entered full production and most of it reads like marketing-speak. There is just a "general agreement" among unknown parties. I'm not trying to bust your chops or anything, I just want more information. If I'm missing out on these studies and tests of non-G11 rifles from the link your provided, please point me to them so I can get some information.

And who is developing the G11 for INF? Just because it's in the armory doesn't mean it's going to happen, so is some third party doing it?

 

[geogob]

Really... if he can't make de difference between real facts base on scientific studies and a marketing speech, we are wasting our time.

I was going to post an analogy to this, but I won't even bother.

/me gone doing something else

 

[Meplat]

Hurin, I was going to respond to your seemingly singular dependence on one website for your firearms info..

But I went shooting instead.

Silly me.

Did some ammunition comparasions , of various 5.56MM surplus and commercial in a FN Minimi, instead of looking at a website regarding the HK G11..

Silly Me.

Played with the Type 96 LMG again.Got it working.

Silly Me.

Made the wood on the NoI MkIII SMLE smoke again.

Silly Me.

I then came to the conclusion while cleaning my firearms, that I have no idea what I'm talking about. Maybe I should stick to real firearms, instead of virtual ones.

Silly me.

 

[geogob]

Made the wood on the NoI MkIII SMLE smoke again.

wooooooooooo I wish I had the chance to do that again! I haven't fired a single shots in years... I miss especially the FAL and the SMLE (but the No4 was fun too).

 

[MP_Duke]

lol Meplat

 

[Bushwack]

[sarcasm on]of course, becuase you didnt read it on teh interweb, you dont know what your talking about Meplat, neither do i [sarcasm off]

 

[ecale3]

Don't lie BW, you know you don't know what you are talking about

 

[Hurin]

Anyway i havent found any direct information, on how muc hthe weapon thoose move exactly to the left or right due to recoil, therefore i am unable to suggest a solution as of yet.
Nonetheless it diturbs me how you can fire 2 feet below the window sill with a minimi and have the recoil knock it up and you hit the guys head.
Naturally me going out and shooting in real life isnt much of a comparison since i dont have easy acces to automatic weapons, other then the few people i know in the military, that are far away right now.

I do have a suggestion that would fix basic recoil unbalance within the game and will have a mutator out for it within the month most likely. It will involve setting a standard recoil of lets say 'x' for a certain gun like the mp5.
Then i will proportionally modify other weapons recoils by using bullet masss X bullet speed / body weight = movement speed in space.
Body weight is constant so are most bullet weight like sig, m16, and xm8.
Bullet speed is at the point where it leaves the gun, so naturally longer barreled guns with same bullet types will likely have heavier recoils.
If any one can direct me to a general weapons page other then some 3 or 4 i know that contains much information, it would be helpful it would allow me to check my data.

 

[sublime]

I'm curious as to how using an arbitrary weapon as an arbitrary standard, and subsequently modifying all other weapons by an arbitrary formula based on that standard will make things better in your eyes.

What about things like muzzle breaks, mass of the weapon, length of the weapon and how it relates to balance, distribution of weight, etc? Wouldn't treating each weapon as an invididual case work out better, where you can take each of those factors into consideration? I guess that depends on finding good sources of information though. Maybe some of the people here that actually have the weapons, or access to them, can help you out a bit.

 

[Meplat]

Anyway i havent found any direct information, on how muc hthe weapon thoose move exactly to the left or right due to recoil, therefore i am unable to suggest a solution as of yet.


-THAT'S BECUASE IT'S A VARIABLE! Jiminy freakin CHRISTMAS! How MANY times do you HAVE to hear it?-

Nonetheless it diturbs me how you can fire 2 feet below the window sill with a minimi and have the recoil knock it up and you hit the guys head.

-PUSH FORWARD ON THE GODDAMN MOUSE! SHORT BURSTS!-

Naturally me going out and shooting in real life isnt much of a comparison since i dont have easy acces to automatic weapons, other then the few people i know in the military, that are far away right now.

-Of course, ME having automatic weapons in close proximity, I must be mistaken. Never mind the input of those that actually have experience using these weapons. The Internut knows ALL!-

I do have a suggestion that would fix basic recoil unbalance within the game and will have a mutator out for it within the month most likely. It will involve setting a standard recoil of lets say 'x' for a certain gun like the mp5.


-Yay. Words FAIL to describe the efforts I am making to contain my enthusiasim.-


Then i will proportionally modify other weapons recoils by using bullet masss X bullet speed / body weight = movement speed in space.

-So, will this magic formulae take into account weither or not the shooter is leaning into, or back from the weapon, upon firing? And shooting position? Prone versus offhand? What about shot dispersion based on loss of sight picture, and induced stressors? Will return fire cause an increase in dispersion, or a decrease, based on prior experiences?

Lost yet?-


Body weight is constant- Um NO. Armor.- so are most bullet weight like sig, m16, and xm8.

-I'm glad to hear that the norm for a load of 12 gauge 00 shot is now the same as the M855 projectile. -

Bullet speed is at the point where it leaves the gun, so naturally longer barreled guns with same bullet types will likely have heavier recoils.

- According to this, My R6700CH Colt HBAR should kick MORE than my SP1? -

If any one can direct me to a general weapons page other then some 3 or 4 i know that contains much information, it would be helpful it would allow me to check my data.

-You need more than a website. You need a couple months worth of SMLE induced "Green Shoulder".-

You get to Arizona, I'll induce it. Drop the websites, and find THESE books.

"Hatcher's Notebook" by Julian S. Hatcher.

Then "Automatic Weapons" by Johnson and Haven.

Egads!

Meplat-

 

[Dr.J]

hurin, that means that you should listen to others, consider the validity of their post and contrast that to the validity of your own opinion. experience and actual knowledge will kick any amount of sitereading and limited physics (so far ive only seen you use some reall simple formulae) that you are able to present.

yes, that does mean you should stop insisting your idea and stubbornly saying that its right while someone with wider technical and real life experience and knowledge has shown on more than occasion how you are wrong. (sorry, ive tried to say this in the nicest possible manner.)

 

[Tiffy]

I'm not getting involved, but Meplat is right.......

 

[[C22]-Mort]

Now I've never fired a gun in my life (don't like them) so my opinion is based purely on what I personally think is common sense with regards to weapons in INF, but it seems to me that different guns will have inherently different amounts of recoil, however at the end of the day it is still PEOPLE holding the gun and and that will be the biggest variable involved! Any system implemented needs to allow an individual to practise with an in-game weapon in order to become proficient with it!

The current system of weapon "bob" and recoil is realistic enough that by training with a particular weapon you can improve your skills enourmously, in fact I don't like some in-game weapons, as I can't seem to hit **** with them purely because I haven't invested enough time practising with them and therefore I stick with the ones I have most practiced with, so it seems to me that that is about as realistic as you can hope to get!

 

[keihaswarrior]

Now I've never fired a gun in my life (don't like them) so my opinion is based purely on what I personally think is common sense with regards to weapons in INF, but it seems to me that different guns will have inherently different amounts of recoil, however at the end of the day it is still PEOPLE holding the gun and and that will be the biggest variable involved! Any system implemented needs to allow an individual to practise with an in-game weapon in order to become proficient with it!

The current system of weapon "bob" and recoil is realistic enough that by training with a particular weapon you can improve your skills enourmously, in fact I don't like some in-game weapons, as I can't seem to hit **** with them purely because I haven't invested enough time practising with them and therefore I stick with the ones I have most practiced with, so it seems to me that that is about as realistic as you can hope to get!

^^^^ I wholeheartedly agree. But, you must also acknowledge that there are immediately tangible and measureable forces at work when a gun is fired.

I keep hearing that "the shooter" is the biggest variable. When it actually comes to try and quantify recoil in-game, you must treat all shooters as equal and thus NOT as a variable. (note this does not leave out the skill of the actual player, it simply gives all players an equal starting point).

That being said, the best course of action would not be to guess at the base recoil force a weapon exerts on the shooter. This is a force that could be measured quite easily by connecting a measureing device and firing the weapon. This would give you fairly accurate data which one could use to make the base recoils of each in-game weapon proportional to eachother.

If I knew where to look, I would research the actual force in Newton's that each weapon exerts upon a body of mass in contact with the stock. After that, I would find things like the Impulse, or how long the recoil lasts which would allow you to program how "sharp" each weapon's recoil is.

--Yo Meplat, any chance you have access to an accelerometer?

 

[MP_Duke]

you people are pathetic

 

[keihaswarrior]

you people are pathetic

And you are somehow exempt from this because you took the time to come in here and post that?

Thanks for the positive contribution to this discussion.
---------------\

I am dead serious about finding the base recoil of the INF weapons. Does anyone here know where this information could be looked up or tested? It would be nice to get away from guessing at the recoil and adjusting it to balance the weapons, and instead use real factual data.

 

[Hurin]

First of all for all of you that dont know anything, dont claim that the size or weight of the weapon make any diffrence to recoil. Recoil is blowback , so the bullets speed bodyweight and bullet mass are all that technically matter.

This is only if you assume several things, first its that everyone in INf fires the gun the same way so no weird firing methods, naturally hipping should have a diffrent recoil.
The other thing that must be assumed is that there are NO weird stocks that might delay or extend the impact. The impact is always the same but the way it is given is not.
AS for an RC50 having a really high recoil yes it should, why?
Because it uses a high caliber large bullet that leaves the gun at a much higher speed, then a bullet leaving an mp5, so naturally the recoil is way higher.

 

[Hurin]

Oh and yes effectively the postion of the weapon and the position of the persone firing: prone crouching, does change where the force of the blow is directed. Unfourtenetly this information is curently unaccesible for me, if someone could find base values for recoil of prone/crouch/standing positions for anyone INF gun i could do the rest.
ANd this isnt some magic formuala, as long as both guns are fired the same way there is a proportion in recoil that is changed by bullet speed and mass.
If you cant understand this then shut up and go grab a physics text book.

 

[sublime]

First of all for all of you that dont know anything, dont claim that the size or weight of the weapon make any diffrence to recoil. Recoil is blowback , so the bullets speed bodyweight and bullet mass are all that technically matter.

Let me get this straight. You're saying that if you fire a projectile out of a weapon with a mass of 1kg it will recoil the same as a weapon with a mass of 10kg as long as the bullet's speed and mass are the same? Interesting. May I please see a physics formula to prove that? And I suppose all of the work done with muzzle breaks and the like is just for show since it has no effect either? Neat. Anyway, I'm still waiting on the original formula I requested, so please just add it to this one. Thanks.