PC Gaming and Piracy: Examined

  • Two Factor Authentication is now available on BeyondUnreal Forums. To configure it, visit your Profile and look for the "Two Step Verification" option on the left side. We can send codes via email (may be slower) or you can set up any TOTP Authenticator app on your phone (Authy, Google Authenticator, etc) to deliver codes. It is highly recommended that you configure this to keep your account safe.

N1ghtmare

Sweet Dreams
Jul 17, 2005
2,411
12
38
Where least expected
I was replying to N1ghtmare, not the article. I'm just saying... :p

I base my argument off the article. If you had read the article, you would see that developers do not expect DRM to stop piracy more than a week. Read the article to find out how critical that first week is.

Also, my point was that I understand the developers do not put DRM because they are super evil, but because they get pissed off. And if I were in their position, as much as I dislike DRM myself, I probably would also get very pissed.

Just read the article.
 

dragonfliet

I write stuffs
Apr 24, 2006
3,754
31
48
41
No, I was refering to activision bitching about lost PC sales of MW2 when it's already the biggest selling game ever.
Smacks of greed to me.

That activision is greedy, I won't contest, that there have been 4 million downloads and less than a million purchases, however (for PC), you sort of feel their pain. It's an obscene number of sales lost.

~Jason
 

Benfica

European Redneck
Feb 6, 2006
2,004
0
0
The new Securom and Starforce don't seem plagued by so many problems.

BF: BC2 has Securom: http://blogs.battlefield.ea.com/bat...hive/2010/01/26/BFBC2-PC-Copy-Protection.aspx
SecuROM in general
The version which we use is a wrapper around the main game executable. It does everything it can by running as a “normal” program; it does not install any sort of kernel software.

What this means is:

* No software is permanently installed on your machine.
* SecuROM is ONLY running when the game is running
* When you uninstall the game, you will also uninstall the SecuROM software.
...
When you install or start the game, you will be required to authenticate the copy of the game. That is how you prove that the installation of the game you are running is legit.
You can do that in two ways: by putting the original DVD in the drive, or by going online once. If you bought the game on disc, you get to choose; if you have purchased it digitally, your only option is going online.
Starforce: http://www.star-force.com/press_room/news/index.php?news=2435
Lisa Arnold, General Manager of Reclaim Your Game comment: “After much testing, analysis and discussion, RYG has concluded that FrontLine ProActive is by far a significantly attractive DRM Scheme, especially with respect to what StarForce had used back in 2006. Six out of the eight characteristics and qualities RYG tested on FrontLine ProActive using Project RYG were deemed to be End-User Friendly. Not only that, but having to work with someone within StarForce who was equally passionate and dedicated in trying to develop an end-user friendly product is a testament to FrontLine ProActive itself.”
test_sf1.gif
 

ambershee

Nimbusfish Rawks
Apr 18, 2006
4,519
7
38
37
Nomad
sheelabs.gamemod.net
That activision is greedy, I won't contest, that there have been 4 million downloads and less than a million purchases, however (for PC), you sort of feel their pain. It's an obscene number of sales lost.

~Jason

I reckon an awful lot of those numbers are pulled out of thin air. It's like when Crytek were crying about a purported 20 million sales lost due to piracy. Ludicrous.

Edit: Let's not also include the large number of people who purchase the game, but still 'pirate' it anyway, such as myself, in order to avoid various annoying bits and pieces of ****eware.
 
Last edited:
Mar 19, 2002
8,616
1
0
Denver Co. USA
Visit site
I reckon an awful lot of those numbers are pulled out of thin air. It's like when Crytek were crying about a purported 20 million sales lost due to piracy. Ludicrous.

Edit: Let's not also include the large number of people who purchase the game, but still 'pirate' it anyway, such as myself, in order to avoid various annoying bits and pieces of ****eware.

That's a good point, and something that can't really be calculated.
Of course people could just download a crack without downloading the whole game.
 

Grobut

Комиссар Гробут
Oct 27, 2004
1,822
0
0
Soviet Denmark
I base my argument off the article. If you had read the article, you would see that developers do not expect DRM to stop piracy more than a week. Read the article to find out how critical that first week is.

I did, but since when does that mean i can't argue against the points i disagree with? hell knows the article doesen't do that very well, the author seems to hold back his punches and just present points and counter points (mostly) so as not to seem too biased.

And the Developers are wrong, it rarely takes a whole week before a game gets cracked, it takes one or two days usually, assuming the pirate version isen't out even before the game is for sale, which happens pretty often thease days.

And besides that, even if they could get a weeks worth of protection from it, hell, even if it was 14 days, i just don't buy the argument for it, the pirates i have known where certainly not going to buy the game because they had to wait a bit for a crack, the people who must have the game on release day, who preorder it and the like, they aren't the pirates, they just download another game to tie them over untill the wait is over.

And a weeks worth of protection is just not worth an eternity of hasseling legit customers, it's unacceptable.

Also, my point was that I understand the developers do not put DRM because they are super evil, but because they get pissed off. And if I were in their position, as much as I dislike DRM myself, I probably would also get very pissed.

Thats not an acceptable answer, i don't care how cheesed of they are, that doesen't make it allright to punish innocent people for the crimes of others, which is exactly what they end up doing, and there is no argument that makes that ok in my eyes, none.

Sorry, but "i was really angry" is not a defense, if you have to say that, it just means you failed to keep your cool and do something smart, and instead did something stupid out of anger.

The suits who are responsible for thease things, who are paid so much money for their management skills, should damn well be held to a higher standard than this, or get the hell out of the buisness before they run it into the ground, and we have another videogame market crash.

Just read the article.

Yeah, i know the article has made mention of thease things too, but an article is worth exactly dick if you don't argue the points, which is what i'm doing here.

And i do not agree with the author on the issue of DRM, in a nutshell, i think it is a much bigger problem than the author does, in his conclusion he even says we should just "Drop the DRM hysteria", sorry, but i disagree very strongly with that, and i don't think he has presented the issue good enough from the legit customers point of view, opting instead to focus more on the pirates point of view so he could conclude that "pirates thease days make up bad excuses for their piracy", which is so obviously a pet peeve of his (whereas i don't think it's the least bit important, yeah people like to rationalize what they do, so what else is new? welcome to human nature), and thus i am am going to argue my point of view.
 

dragonfliet

I write stuffs
Apr 24, 2006
3,754
31
48
41
And besides that, even if they could get a weeks worth of protection from it, hell, even if it was 14 days, i just don't buy the argument for it, the pirates i have known where certainly not going to buy the game because they had to wait a bit for a crack, the people who must have the game on release day, who preorder it and the like, they aren't the pirates, they just download another game to tie them over untill the wait is over.

You're missing the point. Like the article points out (goodness it's tedious to point out your flaws with stuff that's already been said), of course those pirates that refuse to buy games are going to continue to not buy games. It's very explicit in trying to frustrate the pirating attempts of casual piraters, who would LIKE to get the game for free but when faced with the annoyance of waiting just end up buying the game.

Thats not an acceptable answer, i don't care how cheesed of they are, that doesen't make it allright to punish innocent people for the crimes of others, which is exactly what they end up doing, and there is no argument that makes that ok in my eyes, none.

...

The suits who are responsible for thease things, who are paid so much money for their management skills, should damn well be held to a higher standard than this, or get the hell out of the buisness before they run it into the ground, and we have another videogame market crash.

You say all of this like there is an alternative. Games are NOT pirated because they have DRM, they have DRM because they are pirated. DRM does NOT predict piracy levels, the popularity of the game does. It is an ignorant and flat out idiotic point of view to pretend that it works that way. Piracy has drained billions of dollars from the industry and yet the publishers get the blame for trying to stem the tide? I mean, in the end, the punishment is a simply inconvenience. I too don't want to be inconvenienced by a game's DRM but come off it with your lofty rhetoric.

~Jason
 

-Jes-

Tastefully Barking
Jan 17, 2005
2,710
19
38
DM-HyperBlast
It's very explicit in trying to frustrate the pirating attempts of casual piraters, who would LIKE to get the game for free but when faced with the annoyance of waiting just end up buying the game.
Which honestly is wishful friggin' thinking!

Games are NOT pirated because they have DRM, they have DRM because they are pirated.

Which is actually pretty sad, since the DRM really does squat against piracy. :)


I just reinstalled Oni, btw.
Good times, and no DRM whatsoever. Money well spent! :D
 
Last edited:

Entr0p1cLqd

New Member
May 25, 2004
196
0
0
...Which is actually pretty sad, since the DRM really does squat against piracy. :)...
I resent your smiley face tbh.

Given how broke most governments are at the moment, the alleged millions of dollars in lost sales due to software piracy will be just one of the contributing factors to all of the ISPs implementing deep packet inspection and blocking or severely limiting P2P networks wherever possible.

It's only a matter of time.
 

Grobut

Комиссар Гробут
Oct 27, 2004
1,822
0
0
Soviet Denmark
You say all of this like there is an alternative.

Yup, because there is.

The way the market works right now, it may be difficult to see an alternative, but then, why must the market be this way? currently it sure as hell isen't healthy, i dare say it's becoming downright toxic for both developers and legit consumers alike, and only the pirates benifit from the way things are.

The thing the author compleately misses is consumer confidence, he fails to ask himself why things have become this way, he points to a handfull of games that where released without DRM that got pirated anyway, sure, but how could they not be? as he points out himself, there currently exists a culture of piracy, and that was never going to change just because a few companies have released a handfull of games without DRM, ofcourse not, that's just not how things work, you can't change a whole culture with just a few token efforts.

DRM cannot change that culture, it may stop some zero-day pirates, but it gets cracked anyway, and it sure as hell isen't changing peoples minds, it doesen't make them want to support the developers, quite on the contrary, it just adds fuel to the "thease companies don't deserve our money" fire that the pirates are huddled up around.


Whats needed is an industry wide change, the days of selling snakeoil with cool boxart is well and truely over, the internet saw to that, and also provided the pirates with the means to grab the games free nice and easy, it's a new market, but the industry hasen't changed with it.

You know why i am barely buying any new games thease days? it's because so many of them are garbage, not worthy of the pricetag, i am fed up with beeing lied to, of beeing shown screenshots and pre-rendered vids and hearing about cool features that turn out to be overinflated and much worse in reality, and of beeing lied to about system requirements or not propperly informed of limitations put on the products, i am tired of a market where it is the norm that games are released before they are done because of unrealistic deadlines inforced by publishers, i am tired of how buggy and poorly tested games are becomming, hell knows if the game i just bought will even work before i install it (and by then i cannot get a refund because i broke the seal), i am dead tired of games getting shorter and shorter, i am tired of bad console ports, and of features like LANplay and Dedicated servers beeing removed but the price staying the same, of no demos, and i am tired of DRM, of needing to jump through fiery hoops just to install and play something i gave good money for, beeing treated like a criminal, and told that i can only install it x amounts of times before i have to make a longdistance phonecall and beg them to let me play it again, of Auth servers beeing taken offline so i can't play it anymore, and of all thease new moneymaking schemes they are comming up with, buy half the game for €50 and buy the rest as €10 a pop DLC, and i am tired of franchises beeing put through the wringer to appeal to the lowest common denominator, and i am tired of having no consumer rights when i buy anything because crafty lawyers have covered the industry's arses, nobody is held accountable for any scewup that happens.

Seriously, can you honestly tell me that this is a healthy market? one that people would truely wish to support? and are you really supriced that piracy is such an attractive alternative to buying the way things are?

Hell, i have a hard time convincing myself to not just throw the towel in the ring and take up piracy, how the hell am i supposed to tell others they shoulden't do it either?


You want to do something about the piracy problem? then first you need to fix the legit market, how the hell can you expect people to stop their freeloading when the "pay-to-play" alternative is this misserable? you cant, and it will never happen this way, the industry needs to change, they need to figure out that "out by this deadline" does not equal a good game worth buying, the quality needs to return to gaming, considdering the prices they ask it has damn well better, and buying/installing a legit copy of a game cannot be an ordeal, nobody wants to pay for that.

Thease issues must be adressed before we can even begin talking about piracy, and i can promis you that draconian DRM is not helping fix the problems, it's only making it worse, and turning away legit buyers like myself, DRM may never go away, but it cannot be like it is today, it cannot hassle the paying customer like this, not if they want things to change.


EDIT: Also, i'd like to point out that the articles anology of DRM beeing like the door to your house having a lock and key, is purest BS, you know why consumers buy doors that can be locked? because it offers THE CONSUMER some protection.

DRM does not offer the consumer any protection, on the contrary, it offers companies protection FROM THE CONSUMER, to the consumer it is both a hassle that offers them nothing good, and a risk, because if the company folds or takes the Auth servers offline, they will be locked out of something they purchased, and the way the market works, they would have no legal right to regain access to their purchase, they will have wasted their money.

DRM is not like your front door, it's more like having a front door that you do not own the key for, and everytime you want into your house, you have to call a company and have them come unlock it for you, and said company can deny you service at any time if you stop beeing profitable.

Well, the analogy still sucks, but my way it is atleast a bit more accurate.
 
Last edited:

dragonfliet

I write stuffs
Apr 24, 2006
3,754
31
48
41
You know why i am barely buying any new games thease days? it's because so many of them are garbage, not worthy of the pricetag, i am fed up with beeing lied to, of beeing shown screenshots and pre-rendered vids and hearing about cool features that turn out to be overinflated and much worse in reality, and of beeing lied to about system requirements or not propperly informed of limitations put on the products, i am tired of a market where it is the norm that games are released before they are done because of unrealistic deadlines inforced by publishers, i am tired of how buggy and poorly tested games are becomming, hell knows if the game i just bought will even work before i install it (and by then i cannot get a refund because i broke the seal), i am dead tired of games getting shorter and shorter, i am tired of bad console ports, and of features like LANplay and Dedicated servers beeing removed but the price staying the same, of no demos, and i am tired of DRM, of needing to jump through fiery hoops just to install and play something i gave good money for, beeing treated like a criminal, and told that i can only install it x amounts of times before i have to make a longdistance phonecall and beg them to let me play it again, of Auth servers beeing taken offline so i can't play it anymore, and of all thease new moneymaking schemes they are comming up with, buy half the game for €50 and buy the rest as €10 a pop DLC, and i am tired of franchises beeing put through the wringer to appeal to the lowest common denominator, and i am tired of having no consumer rights when i buy anything because crafty lawyers have covered the industry's arses, nobody is held accountable for any scewup that happens.

Seriously? Most of these are flat out wrong or imagined.

Let's go over the games that have been released recently that are most certainly not garbage: Supreme Commander 2, ME2, Bioshock 2, BF: BC2, Dragon Age, Borderlands, Napolean: Total War, STALKER CoP, Torchlight, etc. This says nothing of outstanding console only games (such as Uncharted 2, Demon's Souls, Heavy Rain, Ratchet and Clank, GoW, Bayonetta, etc., etc.) These are all in the last THREE MONTHS, nearly all of them have pretty extensive single player campaigns and nearly all of them have robust multiplayer to boot. Yes, you're not going to like all of them, but there are plenty of very high quality, fun games that are certainly not short (MW2 being the shorted SP campaign, but it is a game made for the MP).

Screenshots and vids have ALWAYS been more flattering than actual gameplay, features have ALWAYS been overhyped and system requirements have always been unfortunately low. This isn't a new thing, it hasn't even happened in the last ten years, it has been constantly like this. To blame an industry shift is flat out deluding yourself. And while no game is bug free, nearly every game I have described is completely playable and enjoyable and free from gamebreaking problems (and if you want to argue against MW2 I'm going to have to point out that the COD games have always been veeeeeeery prone to exploits, which is simply something you have to accept or decline to deal with); and to boot, they are being supported post release with patches and game updates. Additionally, while games today certainly do have more bugs this isn't the fault of lazy devs or greedy publishers, it is inherent to having MUCH more complicated systems. It is an unfortunate fact that the more complex game engines/systems become, the more problems that will exist.

As for bad console ports, that's a reaction to piracy going WAY UP and pc sales going down. BECAUSE of piracy they spend less money on the pc, it is not the other way around.

Also, while we're at it: what are the fiery hoops of DRM? I mean, is connecting to the internet a fiery hoop? Diskcheck? Fiery hoop? Really? How about: very minor inconvenience that you know about in advance because it's printed on the box. With the x amounts of activations they also 'refund' that number everytime you uninstall the game, so unless you have a series of 5 computer crashes in a row, you don't need to make the call. Have you personally ever had to call a publisher to get more activations? This is a real question. Also, what games have been rendered unplayable by auth servers going offline? Most of your complaints are THEORETICAL complaints. Again, however, we are back to the fact that the DRM has been a REACTION to piracy and cannot possibly be used as an excuse. Again we are back to the fact that games are pirated depending on their popularity and NOT because they have DRM. There is no statistical link to more DRM=more piracy but there IS a link between more people want it=more piracy (yes, I said the same things twice because you keep reverting to the idea that drm makes pirates).

~Jason
 
Last edited:

SleepyHe4d

fap fap fap
Jan 20, 2008
4,152
0
0
it's because so many of them are garbage, not worthy of the pricetag, i am fed up with beeing lied to, of beeing shown screenshots and pre-rendered vids and hearing about cool features that turn out to be overinflated and much worse in reality, and of beeing lied to about system requirements or not propperly informed of limitations put on the products, i am tired of a market where it is the norm that games are released before they are done because of unrealistic deadlines inforced by publishers, i am tired of how buggy and poorly tested games are becomming, hell knows if the game i just bought will even work before i install it (and by then i cannot get a refund because i broke the seal), i am dead tired of games getting shorter and shorter, i am tired of bad console ports, and of features like LANplay and Dedicated servers beeing removed but the price staying the same, of no demos, and i am tired of DRM, of needing to jump through fiery hoops just to install and play something i gave good money for, beeing treated like a criminal, and told that i can only install it x amounts of times before i have to make a longdistance phonecall and beg them to let me play it again, of Auth servers beeing taken offline so i can't play it anymore, and of all thease new moneymaking schemes they are comming up with, buy half the game for €50 and buy the rest as €10 a pop DLC, and i am tired of franchises beeing put through the wringer to appeal to the lowest common denominator, and i am tired of having no consumer rights when i buy anything because crafty lawyers have covered the industry's arses, nobody is held accountable for any scewup that happens.

Holy run-on sentence, Batman!

(Without proper grammar or spelling either)
 

Grobut

Комиссар Гробут
Oct 27, 2004
1,822
0
0
Soviet Denmark
I don't think we'll ever agree on this dragonfliet, hell, most of thouse games you mentioned as ossom, i do think are garbage that should never have been released as they where on the PC, but the good news is: We don't have to agree, just know that many people out there think as i do, just like many think as you do.
I'm hardly this first person in this thread who has voiced such an opinion now am i? and you wont be the only one to tell me that i'm just imagining things either, i'm quite sure there will be others.

Thing is though, companies, and indeed whole markets, do suffer when people start taking such a dim view of them and their products, so agree with it or not, consumer confidence does matter, and you can see it on the bottom line.. lets not forget how the videogame market has crashed in the past.


And i know this reply will dissapoint you, i know you like a good argument, i do too, but my heart's just not in it right now.
 

dragonfliet

I write stuffs
Apr 24, 2006
3,754
31
48
41
I don't think we'll ever agree on this dragonfliet, hell, most of thouse games you mentioned as ossom, i do think are garbage that should never have been released as they where on the PC, but the good news is: We don't have to agree, just know that many people out there think as i do, just like many think as you do.
I'm hardly this first person in this thread who has voiced such an opinion now am i? and you wont be the only one to tell me that i'm just imagining things either, i'm quite sure there will be others.

Thing is though, companies, and indeed whole markets, do suffer when people start taking such a dim view of them and their products, so agree with it or not, consumer confidence does matter, and you can see it on the bottom line.. lets not forget how the videogame market has crashed in the past.


And i know this reply will dissapoint you, i know you like a good argument, i do too, but my heart's just not in it right now.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but it isn't like these games are just being ignored, they are being pirated a lot. If people didn't think the games were good, they simply wouldn't play them; instead they say, oh, these games are terrible, I'll play it for free.

Obviously the games today will never be as the games of yore, the same as books and movies and Tuesdays will never be as good. Nostalgia is built in and people blindly believe it. Or, simply, their taste has stayed the same whereas everything else has changed (ie: people who love UT and Q III don't care for today's squad based games or people who loved 70s metal don't care for today's metal). I can understand this.

That being said, this isn't the reason that PC sales have gone down the toilet. People are still playing, they just aren't buying. It isn't that the industry has failed, it is that they have failed at keeping people from pirating.

~Jason
 

Grobut

Комиссар Гробут
Oct 27, 2004
1,822
0
0
Soviet Denmark
Everyone is entitled to their opinion but it isn't like these games are just being ignored, they are being pirated a lot. If people didn't think the games were good, they simply wouldn't play them; instead they say, oh, these games are terrible, I'll play it for free.

I did, there was a time i pirated games, it's many years ago now, back in the early to mid 90's when i was a pennyless teenager, but yeah, i definatly played games that i would never have considdered buying, just because they where free (well, i got them free), and it was a break from all my other stuff.

Obviously nobody would be playing a game they downright hate, that makes no sense, but games that they would not buy for full price? yeah, absolutely, they may not feel its worth $50, but if they get it for free, then there's nothing lost playing it for a few houers (except thouse few houers that they wanted to waste anyway).

So yes, it happens, and probably more than you might think, you'll take a chance on a lot more games if you pay zero for them, i also bought games back then, not so many, i coulden't afford them (and no that doesen't excuse it, but it IS why i pirated), but rest assured that it was only the ones i really, really liked, not the ones i found "meh" or "ok i guess", and certainly not the ones i found bad.


But that may be where you and i speak past eachother, because i'm not talking about hardcore pirates, the guys who are deeply proud that they have a huge games collection and haven't payed a single penny for them, because thease guys are a lost cause, they WILL pirate anything they want, and you are not going to convince them to do otherwise, thease guys are not going to start buying games, and DRM wont stop them from getting it anyway, what can you really do with thease guys? except just considder them a non-buyer and leave it at that.

But not all pirates belong to that catagory, there are many of them that could be reached, who do buy the games if it's good enough or the price is right, and it's hassle free, thease people could become game-buyers if you gave them a good reason to be a game-buyer, but who actually does that? not many, for most games, it's easier to get the pirate version, and it's free, so thats what they do.
But if you're going to reach thouse gamers, you will need a better argument than "you get to pay $50 for it, you'll have to register an account with Gamespy and GFWL, you can only install it 5 times, and you must be online at all times!" to win them over.. yeah, who the hell wants that?
 

Grobut

Комиссар Гробут
Oct 27, 2004
1,822
0
0
Soviet Denmark
All those conditions were created as a response to increased piracy. Casual piracy is not a response to DRM.

You sure? because DRM is the last straw that is making me conssider going back to piracy..

Quite simply, i refuse to support it with my money, and untill now that means i've had to just not buy or play lots of games i wanted, but now that draconian DRM is becoming more rampant, it means i'm starting to stare at a future where i'll be boycotting just about all the games i want.. so what the hell do i do then? quite gaming? turn to piracy? i'm not sure, all i know is that i still wont want to support them with my money.
 

Sjosz

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Dec 31, 2003
3,048
0
36
Edmonton, AB
www.dregsld.com
Chicken versus the egg / vicious circle situation IMO.
Games get released. Some people pirate it. Publisher adds counter-measures to reduce/remove piracy. Pirates find new ways to avoid having to pay for games, and some people are drawn to piracy because of the troubles it gives legitimate consumers. Increase in counter-measures. Increase in piracy, etc.

I think both sides are at fault to some point. Pointing the finger to pirates or DRM alone will not get you the answer.
 

Grobut

Комиссар Гробут
Oct 27, 2004
1,822
0
0
Soviet Denmark
Chicken versus the egg / vicious circle situation IMO.
Games get released. Some people pirate it. Publisher adds counter-measures to reduce/remove piracy. Pirates find new ways to avoid having to pay for games, and some people are drawn to piracy because of the troubles it gives legitimate consumers. Increase in counter-measures. Increase in piracy, etc.

I think both sides are at fault to some point. Pointing the finger to pirates or DRM alone will not get you the answer.

This^