Official INF 2.9 Bonus pack announcement 2 month old today

[keihaswarrior]

If there are bugs, why haven't you told me about it? The capture system hasn't changed since Cleeus did his overhaul (before version 1.10 I believe), and even that wasn't a significant change from the original. I think there are fewer captures because more people try and play TDM on it.

EDIT: Dammit, missed this page. I was replying to kehias' post on the previous page.

Well, the only bug I have noticed was on GD when neither team was getting credited for winning rounds.

The capture system needs to be put in a readme or something. It isn't clear to me whether 2 attackers can cap a flag with 1 def in radius? Can 3 att cap with 2 def in rad?

Everyone liked the old system, I am suprised it got changed at all.

 

[Cleeus[JgKdo]]

The good thing is DTAS doesn't distract anyone.
EAS distracts the TDM/vanilla players and the peeps that don't like respawns (Did i notice that respawns are bad?).
TDM distracts the folks who want good teamplay.

DTAS can be played in very different ways. You can slowly advance straigth to the target, you can flank the enemy, you can slip through the enemy lines and shoot them into their backs, you can use hit'n-run tactics as a single player, you can use rambo style (if you have the skills and it works, why not? it just proves that the enemy isn't defending properly), ...

It's definitly not simple or repetitive. It just isn't all about triggering something (CD, keypads, bombs, helicopters, spawns, extract zones, ...), it's about actually playing the game.
If all players play TDM, it will be TDM but if only 2 of the attackers agree the play as a team and reach the target the game will be over. Defenders will think about it and better defend it next time.

 

[- Lich -]

Well, the only bug I have noticed was on GD when neither team was getting credited for winning rounds.

The capture system needs to be put in a readme or something. It isn't clear to me whether 2 attackers can cap a flag with 1 def in radius? Can 3 att cap with 2 def in rad?

Everyone liked the old system, I am suprised it got changed at all.

Well, this can be edited by the infildtas.ini, so it can be different on a different server => cannot really go to the readme (by the way, the readme tells you this can be changed...).
I like it this way cause it is possible to use DTAS on 1vs1 LAN, and it is much better for offline play vs bots when you need only one attacker/defender to cap/prevent cap, cause, well, bots do not always listen to orders.

But on the other hand I think, both DTAS servers run with 2attackers and 2 defenders needed, like it was in 2.86 times, so I do not see your problem

Bugs: Sometimes first round after a mapchange is ended at once, cause attackers ran out of time, but thats it I think.

 

[Nukeproof]

A few comments from my side:

DTAS does basically two things:
1.) Introducing randomness (which random teamspawn can do as well)
2.) Forcing one team to move with a simple objective

Together it makes it suitable for both clan and public play and encourages teamplay a lot. Of course it doesn't come with a believeable backround scenario as EAS but beeing able to use any map out there without modification is something that ensures its vitality.

Having it included out of the box (which SS doesn't seem too positive about) would make configuration and everything a lot easier and promote it to newbies. (the need to configure an additional key is already a hurdle for a beginner)

EAS: I'm still a fan, but it has its downsides:

1.) Most maps have a couple of bottlenecks, that are the points to be guarded by the defenders. Most encounters happen here and this is quite repetitive. As defender you can't afford to leave 'em unguarded even if you want to be innovative.

2.) 'The way its meant to be played' isn't the most effective one. Instead of going mainly for the objective as attacker you'll much better off by closing the defenders spawnexits first by guarding them.

3.) Very komplex missions (that would be a lot less repetetive) usually don't work well in public. (i.e. reactor 46 or lodon city) Due to little regular EAS activity at least 30% of the players won't know the map and will have a hard time to add anything usefull to gameplay. In a way complexity is kind of contra productive: The more complex the objective the more you need to know the map by heart to do anything useful. When you know it already inside out you are probably already kind of fed up... a point where dtas excells: even 1st time on the map you'll be able to defend or attack. In the end 'not knowing the map' would be the most realistic scenario compared to RL.

These points together leave little tactical variants for effective gameplay and make it more repetitve than DTAS and TDM with random teamspawn unless we are talking of a great map like Mostar. And it makes it also less realistic: Who would exactly know in a RL operation where to expect the enemy?

@Gal-z: mapknowledge is always a big factor to 'player performance' no matter which gametype. Just like in RL knowing the area you operate in is a key factor.

 

[Beppo]

takes at least a dozen plays to memorize all the 'special' spots, tactics and positions

That's a bad thing. It means bad players who continuously played this map will beat good players who never played it or only played it a little - by having the good players wandering around until they get shot from behind because they don't know where the enemy is supposed to be, or have the attackers capture your objective because you don't know where it is to defend it.
Of course there's compass, but we all know that's often not enough to effectively find the objective, especially if you want to stay alive while going there.

Good players would never just wander around
Sure they would need to 'learn' the map a bit to even be aware of sniper positions, ambush and similar spots, but this is fact in every game, even if completely random spawns and objectives are used. As long as the structures do not change you will have an advantage if you know the map better as someone else.

To be fair, that isn't DTAS.
DTAS has an established attackers and defenders every round, and only the attackers have the physical (hill) objective. Attackers lose if they fail to complete within the time period allotted.

As some said already, DTAS can be played by any type of player without changing their type of play. So Rambos, solos, rushers and team oriented more tactical players can play together somehow. Maybe I just played DTAS with the typical solo TDM style candidates and so got bored pretty fast due to the stupidness of rushing around on the map trying to kill your enemy with spray'n'pray 'tactics' not caring for anythng... well you have enough ammo, so why not waste it. Stupid stuff most times but some are very effective in using such 'tactics' that would kill them in RL within seconds. And that is the main problem I guess... noone plays as if their real life would depend on it - how could it is just a game - and so the weirdest 'tactics' show up. But restricting the player in his movement possibilities even more would ruin the game in the end. But I'm going OT now

These points together leave little tactical variants for effective gameplay and make it more repetitve than DTAS and TDM with random teamspawn unless we are talking of a great map like Mostar. And it makes it also less realistic: Who would exactly know in a RL operation where to expect the enemy?

Well if you know the area that your mission will send you in, then you will know the areas and places where to expect the enemy. Why do the military have recon and tactical units if not for gathering as much data as possible to get the picture of the whole scenario. If your mission means to get into a village to capture an object and then extract outside the village again, then you will be informed about possible ambush spots and other places of tactical interest in your mission briefing for sure. So in RL the same system works... the better you know the place, the better it is in terms of having an advantage over someone that doesn't know the place as good as you do.

To sum it up - I guess - it all depends on who is playing... and this is the same for any game out there...

 

[Nukeproof]

Well if you know the area that your mission will send you in, then you will know the areas and places where to expect the enemy. Why do the military have recon and tactical units if not for gathering as much data as possible to get the picture of the whole scenario. If your mission means to get into a village to capture an object and then extract outside the village again, then you will be informed about possible ambush spots and other places of tactical interest in your mission briefing for sure. So in RL the same system works... the better you know the place, the better it is in terms of having an advantage over someone that doesn't know the place as good as you do.

To sum it up - I guess - it all depends on who is playing... and this is the same for any game out there...

Yes but knowing 100% that the defenders will have to exit through 1-3 holes after respawn makes it too easy to trap them while your teammates care about the objective. (i.e. Frozen, Refinery, Reactor 46, Cubadawn, Pansinsky ... and many more)

All this can be avoided with random spawns

Edit: eh, well in Cubadawn it'll be the attackers who are trapped

 

[gal-z]

The problem with EAS is that not only map knoledge is a HUGE factor compared to DTAS, it's also impossible to learn enough useful information about a map before the server switches to a different one.

 

[Beppo]

The problem with EAS is that not only map knoledge is a HUGE factor compared to DTAS, it's also impossible to learn enough useful information about a map before the server switches to a different one.

You can always check out the maps offline alone or with bots. So if you really want to 'learn' a map, then you can do this at any time. I know some clanners that do and did this with every new map they got before trying it out online for the first time. If you dl a map from a server while playing, then your first rounds will not really give you a chance to actually learn it, sure. But this is not bound to EAS. EAS gives you a small help in form of the compass to guide you to your objectives, tho. So, even someone that plays the map for the first time will find a way to the objective normally. This depends on the map too of course, if the mapper ie. placed some signs leading the way or described the objectives properly and used location ids. This has nothing to do with the game mode at all.

And to DTAS... map knowledge IS a huge factor in DTAS too of course. If you know the 'good spots' and the 'bad spots' then you automatically get an advantage. Map knowledge gets you around obstacles, can let you flank an enemy that you saw in the distance fe. and you know the sniper hideouts and whatnot too of course. So, even if the flag is placed at a random position, you normally know the ways leading to it and should not end up in a dead end if you know the map. So map knowledge is a huge factor here too.

As said already, as long as the maps structures themselves do not change randomly, map knowledge will be a factor that gives you an advantage.
Actually we had a labyrinth test map for 2.9 that was 'just' a dungeon maze with random walls selected at startup showing up everywhere. So each time you had different mixes of dead ends and open hallways that led thru the inner 'complex'.

 

[yurch]

As some said already, DTAS can be played by any type of player without changing their type of play. So Rambos, solos, rushers and team oriented more tactical players can play together somehow. Maybe I just played DTAS with the typical solo TDM style candidates and so got bored pretty fast due to the stupidness of rushing around on the map trying to kill your enemy with spray'n'pray 'tactics' not caring for anythng... well you have enough ammo, so why not waste it. Stupid stuff most times but some are very effective in using such 'tactics' that would kill them in RL within seconds. And that is the main problem I guess... noone plays as if their real life would depend on it - how could it is just a game - and so the weirdest 'tactics' show up. But restricting the player in his movement possibilities even more would ruin the game in the end. But I'm going OT now

I'd blame this on player and weapon dynamics instead of the gametype. I don't see how anyone could make the claim that such undesireable 'tactics' don't show up in EAS as well.

Also, what does this have to do with my attempt to clarify the DTAS rules?

 

[jaymian]

Well Beppo, you helped prove my point. EAS is too difficult for the average INF player, or gamer in general. Are we too stupid? No. EAS requires an insane amount of teamwork and tactics for an online game with public servers. It seems to work best for clan matches and apparently beta testers. But for someone such as myself who just logs on to play on a public server, it turns sour quick. Even though I have played with a lot of these guys in the past, they still do unpredictible stuff, and have their own plan of attack in mind. All you can do is follow them into a trap, or try to lead the team yourself to find the team is just you. I know there's more than one way into a building, but that is not every map. A lot of maps have a few paths, which are easily covered by snipers/defenders who have the drop on you because their sites are locked on your position. Even if you know their location, you still have to have your sites aligned. While you wait for that to happen, you soon realize you are waiting to respawn. No matter how hard INF has tried to force teamwork, it has failed. DTAS has the appearance of teamwork, but people are still mostly working for themselves. Games like BF are the same. You just cannot expect people to log onto a server, form a team with a leader, and begin using swat team tactics to take a position. Even with good team chat systems, this is difficult. The communication system in place is not nearly good enough for what is expected of us. Next version of INF needs to take into consideration other people besides the beta testers and clan matches. Try to imagine jumping onto a server and playing with people you don't know for once. When was hte last time you actually played on a public server beppo? I don't mean for 5 minutes either.

 

[Radiant]

I'm one of those being referred to as a "gamer in general". I've played a handful of shooters, mostly games like UT2003, 2004 and Tribes before I found Infiltration. Jaymien, you are wrong. The EAS gametype is not difficult to understand at all. Yeah, it requires some teamwork, but it's not an "insane amount". I found it quite easy to adapt from the TDM and CTF in UT.

From what I can tell, the DTAS gametype requires an equal amount of teamwork, if not more.

 

[Beppo]

I'd blame this on player and weapon dynamics instead of the gametype. I don't see how anyone could make the claim that such undesireable 'tactics' don't show up in EAS as well.

Also, what does this have to do with my attempt to clarify the DTAS rules?

Sorry that it wasn't obvious that my statement about the rushers I played with was not based on DTAS at all. I just wanted to blame them, not the game type being responsible for how they play.

 

[RedMarlin[MERLIN]]

I know im kinda going off topic but, I was just thinking and I was thinking about something like DTAS and EAS. I'm not sure it will work but I know like in maps like in Iraq they have movers to change the map around a little bit. I was thinking maybe you could have like random spawn building or something like that. IE I was thinking about a mountian map and hidden in the mountians there is a base that you have to destroy something around those lines. Except the attackers have to totally find it, even if they know the map really well because the base can be moved every time. I'm not sure if this could work but it it would I think it would be really great. Of course the maps would have to be huge but that makes the environment more realistic like EAS INF Birkby. Like I said I'm not sure if that could work but I thought it was a pretty good idea.


Oh.... btw wasnt the bonus pack suppose to be out this week

 

[mat69]

I don't think this will work. Movers tend to use much performance and not work allways the way they should online. Now making a whole base as mover seems deadly at least online.
ecale3 made a large jungle map (JungleWarfare) if you'd added several modified copies of the map at its edges you'd get a real big map.

 

[Cleeus[JgKdo]]

Attention, /me gets a bit upset and offensive:

Beppo, do you really think that the people here didn't try to play as teams? Do you really think they didn't try to vary their tactics? Do you really think they didn't try to play slow and organised?
I bet most of the clanmembers and even looners here did. But it apparently it just doesn't work. There are a number of problems with EAS that make teamplay impossible.

I'll just describe what usually happens:
Lets imagine an match on Bordertown. The team spawns as a whole and they can work together (they even do), then they reach the village and here and there they get losses and the respawn in different waves. The few that are left on the front will mostly be alone. The respawners are also mostly alone but try to reach the front. While they do so, the survivors of the first wave get killed and respawn - while the others are nearly in the town, again.
If you tell me that doesn't happen, you have a pretty good imagination.
The solution would be to increase the wavetimer so that more people spawn together, but thats not possible because then the spawns will be camped because there are times when there are no people left who hold back the oposing forces.

The respawns have another problem: You alllways have to change your position. If you don't, you'r a dead man in less then one minute. In clan matches even more then in publics. This is because if you shoot someone, he will know your position (don't tell us to choose better positions, there aren't so many like you may think). In clanmatches he will even tell the position to a clanmate, but the least thing is that he will come back 60s or 90s later and throw a M67 or 40mm on your head.

The result is: total chaos

Don't tell the community (us) that we don't know how to do teamplay, we have done ALOT of teamplay with DTAS, the JgKdo has done very very disciplined and effective teamplay with DTAS and guess what, it still works with 2.9 and DTAS, but not with EAS and respawns.

The 121st tried a EAS server without respawns, guess what happend?
Players played slow, together in teams and the game was tense like hell. The only problem is, that the dead players have to wait pretty long until the match is over and that the last missions objectives are mostly completed without defenders left.

So please, accept it: respawns are bad

A roundbased EAS would rock. One objective per round, one live per objective - the heaven for teamplay with nice missions.

It sure is very dissapointing and hard to accept that all your work that you put into EAS and all the mappers work they put in the EAS missions is not used. But sometimes things don't turn out as good as one wants them to.

edit:
Telling people that all they do is play the game wrong doesn't really help and doesn't make them play different.
The gamemode is a set of rules and should push the gamestyle into a certain direction. EAS does this, but into the wrong direction.

 

[Rasalom]

well said cleeus. The EAS norespawns is something I, and some few others, defended long ago (in the first in month in this thread , but only a few have played or accepted our ideas). I totally agree about its improvement in game's quality. VeGA has put a EAS non respawn in the first month to see how it felt, and was very good (in fact, only the old DTAS crew played it).

The description about "total chaos" was very good, and nice to know others feel like this

Same as JgKdo, UMC has always tryed to play as team, slow, objective and teamworking, but sometimes its hard becouse most of us don't use voice communications. And I really fell bad to hear that some say we just don't know how to play or how teamwork. Maybe this ones should be online more often and see how does the community plays.


EDIT: BTW, nice HammerFall signature

 

[Logan6]

Been playing the 1 life DTAS of late on the servers, and I like it a lot better than the respawn waves. People seem to play a lot smarter when they know that they have only one life, and theres a lot more teamwork. EAS always seemed pretty good to me when it was 1 life.

 

[keihaswarrior]

First of all, I disagree with Jaymain about EAS requiring too much of the INF player. It sounds like he is simply frustrated with getting killed a lot by people who play more. The INF players who want to work together do it well. The ones who don't are still able to play EAS just fine and even be successful sometimes.

Secondly, I think EAS has just as much teamwork in it, if not more than DTAS. Mostly, as Beppo said, it depends on the people playing. Rushers and Rambos will always go off by themselves in EAS or DTAS.

Lastly, I think the best gametype that "forces" teamwork is Specialist. The ONE big downside to Spec is having a noob spawn as the spec. Not only does it basically ruin the teams chances for success when the spec can't even find his way to the objective, but the spec often leaves which resets the entire round.

For public play, we need a voting/que system for determining who the spec is.
It would work like this:
At the start of the round, a little message says, "Press F3 if you want to be specialist."
The first person to press F3 would be the spec. If that person gets disconnected or just leaves, then the second person who pressed F3 would become spec (without reseting the round).

I think we need this badly for public play. Clan matches would still use the current system. Beppo already went into depth (in a different thread) about why the current system is better for clanmatches.

 

[NTKB]

have you Euros tried the settings we do on GD? Lots of fun and still tense with respawns, AND it solves the different wave problem.

 

[-Freshmeat]

For public play, we need a voting/que system for determining who the spec is.
It would work like this:
At the start of the round, a little message says, "Press F3 if you want to be specialist."
The first person to press F3 would be the spec. If that person gets disconnected or just leaves, then the second person who pressed F3 would become spec (without reseting the round).

I think this is a good idea, however I think it would work even better if there was like 15 sec wait while people got the chance to press F3. Then the specialist would be chosen randomly among the candidates.

-Freshmeat